Are you preterist or merely 'modified post-trib'?

[Ahwatukee]

[QUOTE=tanakh;2981796]The Tribulation is not a Punishment from God for believers but a time of testing. The test being whether we are faithful to the end or throw in our lot with the Antichrist and Babylon The OT has a number of stories that are shadows and testings that point to the Great tribulation and/or the seven trumpets the Rapture and the return of Christ. I dont have time to go into this in detail now but will later . My position on the Rapture is that it happens at the seventh and last Trumpet in Revelation.[/QUOTE]

Morning tanakh,

The testing with wrath is not for the church, but for those who will have continued to reject Christ. It is for the following:

"The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts."

Believers within the church already repented when they originally came to Christ and continue in a repentant heart. The church is not those described above, but those who will have continued to reject Christ and continue to live according to the sinful nature.

The day of the Lord, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, was prophesied by the OT prophets upon the proud and arrogant:

"See, the day of the Lord is coming—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it.
The stars of heaven and their constellationswill not show their light.The rising sun will be darkenedand the moon will not give its light.I will punish the world for its evil,the wicked for their sins.I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughtyand will humble the pride of the ruthless.I will make people scarcer than pure gold,more rare than the gold of Ophir.Therefore I will make the heavens tremble;and the earth will shake from its placeat the wrath of the Lord Almighty,in the day of his burning anger.

Believers in Christ have been credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God. The church is not in view regarding those mentioned above. The promise of the resurrection of the dead and the living being changed and caught up, will take place prior to God's wrath which will be upon all of those mentioned above.

 

[Locutus]

What do we read in the new testament regarding the great tribulation:



Mat 24:21 (Young's) for there shall be then great tribulation, such as was not from the beginning of the world till now, no, nor may be.

Previous statements:

Mat 24:16 then those in Judea -- let them flee to the mounts;

Heading on over to Luke's writings:

Luk 21:20 'And when ye may see Jerusalem surrounded by encampments, then know that come nigh did her desolation

Luk 21:21 then those in Judea, let them flee to the mountains; and those in her midst, let them depart out; and those in the countries, let them not come in to her;

In both gospels we have the same advice to them in Judea to flee to the mountains. Both gospels are speaking of the same time and events.

Jesus gives the time indicators for those things to happen, "Jerusalem surrounded by encampments" which happened in the 1st century AD resulting in the "desolation" of the city.

Jesus also told them that all these things were about to come to pass:

Luk 21:36 (Young's) watch ye, then, in every season, praying that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that are about to come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.'

"About to" can't be "stretched" 19 centuries into the future - If I tell you I'm about to send you an email I'm sure you will be expecting it soon .

Therefore this places the great tribulation in those events in the 1st century AD

 

[Timeline]

Daniel 8:26 (YLT)
And the appearance of the evening and of the morning, that is told, is true; and thou, hide thou the vision, for it is after many days.'
Daniel 8:26 (NASB)
“And the vision of the evenings and mornings
Which has been told is true;
But keep the vision secret,
For it pertains to many days in the future.”

Daniel 12:4 (TLT)
And thou, O Daniel, hide the things, and seal the book till the time of the end, many do go to and fro, and knowledge is multiplied.'

Daniel 12:4 (NASB)
4“But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.”

Rev 22:10 (YLT)
And he saith to me, 'Thou mayest not seal the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is nigh;

Rev 22:10 (NASB)
And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.

PS. I posted YLT for you, Locutus, but the post is not directed at you...or anyone else for that matter.

 

[Locutus]

Daniel 8:26 (YLT)
And the appearance of the evening and of the morning, that is told, is true; and thou, hide thou the vision, for it is after many days.'
Daniel 8:26 (NASB)
“And the vision of the evenings and mornings
Which has been told is true;
But keep the vision secret,
For it pertains to many days in the future.”

Daniel 12:4 (TLT)
And thou, O Daniel, hide the things, and seal the book till the time of the end, many do go to and fro, and knowledge is multiplied.'

Daniel 12:4 (NASB)
4“But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.”

Rev 22:10 (YLT)
And he saith to me, 'Thou mayest not seal the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is nigh;

Rev 22:10 (NASB)
And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.

PS. I posted YLT for you, Locutus, but the post is not directed at you...or anyone else for that matter.

NASB is fine TL - yes Daniel was told to seal the prophecies while John was told not to seal his revelation which is a problem for most theologies that posit John's revelation as future events.


Rev 1:1 A revelation of Jesus Christ, that God gave to him, to shew to his servants what things it behoveth to come to pass quickly; and he did signify it, having sent through his messenger to his servant John,

Some theologies like to claim that quickly means once it is started the events will quickly unfold - while the events may happen fast/quick that does not take away from Johns statement of imminence:

Rev 1:3 Happy is he who is reading, and those hearing, the words of the prophecy, and keeping the things written in it -- for the time is nigh!

 

[MattTooFor]

Really, everything you see in this chart would indicate people would know the very day? Please reveal to me that day and hour according to the Chart?

What? You can't. Why? Because the chart does NOT reveal no day nor hour when He will return as you are suggesting. Neither have i done such a thing in the diagram.

Have you found anything in the diagram that is incorrect according to Scriptures, or is this the only thing you are going to reply about?

According to your chart, the Lord returns exactly 1260 days after the mid point of the 7 year period.

If you don't recognize that the "gathering of the elect" happens at an unspecified point sometime during the second 1260-day period when there appear these huge cosmic events (the darkening of the sun and the moon, starts falling from the sky, etc)...you are thus placing the "return" of the Lord at exactly the 1260th day.

 

[MattTooFor]

I became a "preterist" because that is where the Bible guides us.

But that's too general of an answer. You're not explaining HOW the Bible leads you to preterism.

And in responding to my post, you haven't (all due respect) answered my basic question which is...since Jesus was answering the disciples' question about His return....and His return is yet in the future...why wouldn't one at least preliminarily conclude Jesus is describing events yet in the future?

Pretty simple logic, it seems to me.

 

[iamsoandso]

That's the thing about it all in times past on the internet many would coin the phrase "I challenge any of you to read Josephus and deny preterism" the thing about it is in the end those who did read Josephus became those who opposed preterism. As time went on and those who read his writings began to ponder those very events recorded and compared them to scripture began to realize that instead of the writings of Josephus proving something in the desired direction they in fact proved it to be incorrect.

 

[iamsoandso]

I will give you an example,I call it the "fallacy of the talent" that is Revelation 16:21 in which hail about the weight of an talent were hurled at the earth and men cursed the plague. Now if you were to be directed to Josephus wars book 5,chapter 6 the weight of the stones hurled over the third wall of Jerusalem were of about that weight but they were not afraid of them and so Titus had them blackened(they saw them coming a mile off and announced them and most could dodge them) but the real kicker is that if you research the history of the third wall it was began by Herod Agrippa1 between ad41-44 then halted and finished by those who were of the Jewish rebellion shortly before ad66 and so they are a "fallacy"

That is, if Jesus spoke of the stones in Matthew that were standing while he was alive when he said their would not one stone be left upon another then the stones then standing were the stones in reference in the Olivet discourse. So if Herod did not begin to build the third wall until 11 years after the our Lords crucifixion then if they were not yet standing then the battle described in Josephus wars,book 5.chapter 6 are not the stones mentioned in the Olevet discourse,they had not yet been built.

 

[Locutus]

The big problem with dispensationalism is taking metaphoric Hebraic "apocalyptic" language and trying to understand it using a literal Western mindset;

Isa 40:3 (NASB) A voice is calling, “Clear the way for the LORD in the wilderness; Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God.

Isa 40:4 “Let every valley be lifted up, And every mountain and hill be made low; And let the rough ground become a plain, And the rugged terrain a broad valley;

When John came as the voice:

Jhn 1:23 He said, “I am A VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS, ‘MAKE STRAIGHT THE WAY OF THE LORD,’ as Isaiah the prophet said.”

There was no literal landscaping, leveling of mountains and filling in of valleys done in and around Jerusalem, or bulldozing with a Cat in the desert.

Jesus was using the language of the prophets when saying:

Mat 24:29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.


We find similar "apocalyptic" language in other prophecies in Isaiah against Babylon:

Isa 13:1 The oracle concerning Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw.

Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not flash forth their light; The sun will be dark when it rises And the moon will not shed its light.

Adam Clarke's commentary:

For the stars of heaven "Yea, the stars of heaven" - The Hebrew poets, to express happiness, prosperity, the instauration and advancement of states, kingdoms, and potentates, make use of images taken from the most striking parts of nature, from the heavenly bodies, from the sun, moon, and stars: which they describe as shining with increased splendor, and never setting.


The moon becomes like the meridian sun, and the sun's light is augmented sevenfold; (see Isaiah 30:26; new heavens and a new earth are created, and a brighter age commences.


On the contrary, the overflow and destruction of kingdoms is represented by opposite images. The stars are obscured, the moon withdraws her light, and the sun shines no more!


The earth quakes, and the heavens tremble; and all things seem tending to their original chaos, See Joel 2:10;Joel 3:15, Joel 3:16; Amos 8:9; Matthew 24:29; and De S. Poes. Herb. Prael. 6 et IX.

I've already established that the tribulation was in the 1st century AD

 

[iamsoandso]

you established before us that you are convinced it was,not that many seem to agree with what you are convinced of if not who are those who disagree?

 

[Locutus]

What happened is nobody could establish from scripture that I was wrong.

 

[iamsoandso]

What happened is nobody could establish from scripture that I was wrong.

from the beginning the church were millennial/Chilliest in position then about the 3rd.4th century they swayed to Amill and years later the same debate sprang up and became more complex so "I was wrong" seems to be nothing if none from the beginning have ended the debate. lol,the early apostolic fathers were as it seems of a different opinion on the matter of prophecy as to when it was fulfilled in regards to when it would be arbitrary to their days.

 

[Locutus]

The various "fathers", writers etc. have been all over the place because they've tried to explain away certain scriptures instead of accepting what the scripture actually says.

The dispensationlists claim that John the Baptist was not Elijah even when Jesus said he was:

Mat 17:10 And his disciples questioned him, saying, 'Why then do the scribes say that Elijah it behoveth to come first?'

Mat 17:11 And Jesus answering said to them, 'Elijah doth indeed come first, and shall restore all things,

Mat 17:12 and I say to you -- Elijah did already come, and they did not know him, but did with him whatever they would, so also the Son of Man is about to suffer by them.'


So why would anybody put any trust in a "theology" that directly contradicts the scripture and Jesus.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello Locutus,

Jesus was using the language of the prophets when saying:

Mat 24:29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

The above will literally take place just as the Lord is returning to the earth to end the age, as will the rest of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

I've already established that the tribulation was in the 1st century AD

You haven't established anything. You've subjectively implied it. Jesus said, "Upon this Rock I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." When Jesus said to his disciples that he was going to the Father's house to prepare dwelling places and that he would return to gather us, it was a promise to the entire church, from begging to the end. The detailed account of his coming to gather us is found in 1 Thes.4:13-18, which again is to the entire church. Therefore, since the church is still in the process of being built, then the tribulation could not have take place nor the Lord's return, which follows immediately after the tribulation.

Regarding the tribulation, it is impossible for it have taken place in the first century AD and that because the church is still here. Furthermore, regarding the great tribulation, Jesus said that it would be a time of great tribulation such as [the world] has not seen, from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again. And if those days of tribulation were allowed to go on any longer than the specified time, no one would be left alive on planet earth.

Needless to say, nothing of that severity nor magnitude has taken place on the earth and therefore, the tribulation period is yet future and will take place leading up to Christ's return to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.

The wrath of God, which is the tribulation that is coming, will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. These events will take place just as they are written, decimating most of the population of the earth and dismantling of all human government.

The world, and unfortunately, many Christians, do not even understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath.

 

[Locutus]

There is no subjective implication in my post I dealt only with the scripture - if you think I'm wrong then you need to take it line by line and establish that the "great tribulation" is yet future using the text I posted:


What do we read in the new testament regarding the great tribulation:



Mat 24:21 (Young's) for there shall be then great tribulation, such as was not from the beginning of the world till now, no, nor may be.

Previous statements:

Mat 24:16 then those in Judea -- let them flee to the mounts;

Heading on over to Luke's writings:

Luk 21:20 'And when ye may see Jerusalem surrounded by encampments, then know that come nigh did her desolation

Luk 21:21 then those in Judea, let them flee to the mountains; and those in her midst, let them depart out; and those in the countries, let them not come in to her;

In both gospels we have the same advice to them in Judea to flee to the mountains. Both gospels are speaking of the same time and events.

Jesus gives the time indicators for those things to happen, "Jerusalem surrounded by encampments" which happened in the 1st century AD resulting in the "desolation" of the city.

Jesus also told them that all these things were about to come to pass:

Luk 21:36 (Young's) watch ye, then, in every season, praying that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that are about to come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.'

"About to" can't be "stretched" 19 centuries into the future - If I tell you I'm about to send you an email I'm sure you will be expecting it soon .

Therefore this places the great tribulation in those events in the 1st century AD.



Take it line by line and establish the case for a future "great tribulation".

 

[Ahwatukee]

The various "fathers", writers etc. have been all over the place because they've tried to explain away certain scriptures instead of accepting what the scripture actually says.

The dispensationlists claim that John the Baptist was not Elijah even when Jesus said he was:

Mat 17:10 And his disciples questioned him, saying, 'Why then do the scribes say that Elijah it behoveth to come first?'

Mat 17:11 And Jesus answering said to them, 'Elijah doth indeed come first, and shall restore all things,

Mat 17:12 and I say to you -- Elijah did already come, and they did not know him, but did with him whatever they would, so also the Son of Man is about to suffer by them.'


So why would anybody put any trust in a "theology" that directly contradicts the scripture and Jesus.

Hello again,

I'm a dispensationalist and I know and believe that John that Baptist was that Elijah in type that was to come and that, as you said, it is what scripture states. When I say dispensationalism, I mean that I believe that Israel and the church are two separate programs and the literal interpretation of the scripture, taking into consideration the symbolisms, metaphors, etc. The word of God should be interpreted in the literal sense unless a symbolic or other wise interpretation is required.

The major problem that we have today, is people applying symbolic/allegorical meanings to scripture that is meant to be literal, which distorts the meaning that God meant to convey. Regarding end-time events, all of the previous prophecies were fulfilled literally and we can therefore expect a literal fulfillment of all future prophesies, which include the gathering of the church, God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and the return of the Lord to the earth to end the age.

 

[iamsoandso]

Look at Josephus wars then think what does it reflect,then notice that it is called "wars" then that it is denoting the "Jewish wars" so in regards to them going to war it should suffice that they,the Jews did in fact not believe nor think that the Caesar of Rome was a God of any form or fashion. They did not bow down to him nor did they see him as having authority over them,they rebelled! When they rebelled they began to mint their own coins and why is because of the very thing they ask Jesus in Mark 12 and in Luke 20 they knew that they were required by law to pat tithes to the temple of God and that the coins of Rome had images of pagan gods on them and would not be accepted by God as tithes at the temple.

There was the dilemma which was in that most who were coming to Jerusalem were travelling from other nations where they were carried into captivity in the years prior. So they came to the honour the Feast and Holy days but when they came at the appointed time and brought the money used in the nations they lived they first needed to be exchanged for kosher monies that would be acceptable to pay tithes at the temple. and so Jesus flipped over the money changers tables because they were charging an profit to exchange monies that could not be used to pay tithes at the temple for monies that could be used.

And so then fast forward to ad66 and the Jews minted their own coins,refused to use Rome’s monies(not kosher) then the coins they minted(Jewish revolt coinage) had no need to be exchanged by the money changers before they were presented to the priest as tithes because hey did not have the image of the pagan gods of Rome on them. In other words the Jews involved in the revolt of ad66-70 against Rome did not worship Ceasar as God nor did they use his monies to buy and sell and this is proven by the writings of Josephus.

 

[Locutus]

There are no "two separate" programs - that's a dispensational invention - there is only one gospel:

Rom 1:16 for I am not ashamed of the good news of the Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation to every one who is believing, both to Jew first, and to Greek.

Rom 9:27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved.

Rom 9:28 For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness, Because the LORD will make a short work upon the earth.”

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Notice how Paul claims that only a remnant/elect are saved and that the "work" would be a short work.

We find precisely the same statement from Jesus:

Mat 24:21 “For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Mat 24:22 “And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

 

[Ahwatukee]

There is no subjective implication in my post I dealt only with the scripture - if you think I'm wrong then you need to take it line by line and establish that the "great tribulation" is yet future using the text I posted:

I already did prove it to you in the same post. The world has not experienced that time of great tribulation such as the world has not seen, from the beginning of creation, until now and never to be equaled again. That alone kills the idea that the great tribulation has already taken place. Your claim that the tribulation has already taken place is subjective. As I told you and proved to you, the promises that Christ made is to the entire church, not a small sliver of it in the 1st century. Since the church is still in the process of being built, then the Lord could not have neither gathered his church, not the tribulation which follows the gathering of the church, which is then followed by the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.

Jesus also told them that all these things were about to come to pass:

Luk 21:36 (Young's) watch ye, then, in every season, praying that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that are about to come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.'

The OT prophets spoke about the day of the Lord in the same way as the apostles, as being near or soon to take place. The meaning is imminency, i.e. on the horizon, about to happen, looming, in the workings, you can't set a date to it, etc., etc. It goes right along with the Lord's claim of coming like a thief. Regarding this he said, if the good man of the house had known at what time the thief was going to break in, he would have waited up for him. Therefore WATCH, because you do not know at what hour the Son of Man will come. Imminency!

Using your logic, If you have both the OT saints and the apostles claiming that the day of the Lord is near, you have a problem. Because it should have happened in close proximity to the OT prophets. But how can that be if the apostles are also claiming that the day of Lord is also near? This demonstrates that the day of the Lord didn't happen during the time of the OT prophets nor during the time of the apostles. The day of the Lord is still future, still imminent.

 

[Ahwatukee]

There are no "two separate" programs - that's a dispensational invention - there is only one gospel:

Seventy sets of seven year were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem. Sixty-nine of those seven sets of seven were fulfilled when the Messiah was cut off. There remains one seven year period to be fulfilled. At the time that the Messiah was cut off, God put a hold on Israel's last seven and began to build the church, which is still in progress. Once the church has been completed, the Lord will descend and 1 Thes.4:13-17 will take place. Once the church has been removed, then God will pick up right where he left off with Israel, who did not receive Jesus as their Messiah and will fulfill that last seven years.