Are you RIGHTEOUS?

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gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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A small point, is there a problem with expressing emotion here, on only
the right type of emotion connected to the right type of ideas.

And it has been shown a good laugh is very good for the soul and spirit.
I see what you are saying here, and somewhat agree.

now, with that said, here seems to be the big disconnect between you and others- you seem to talk about emotions and feelings A LOT. many of the rest of us are speaking facts and truths without filtering them through emotions.

like this - to him who knows to do good and not do so, to him it is said- that means EXACTLY what it says it means. it levels the playing field. I have see you define this Scripture many different ways, instead of face value.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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I see what you are saying here, and somewhat agree.

now, with that said, here seems to be the big disconnect between you and others- you seem to talk about emotions and feelings A LOT. many of the rest of us are speaking facts and truths without filtering them through emotions.

like this - to him who knows to do good and not do so, to him it is said- that means EXACTLY what it says it means. it levels the playing field. I have see you define this Scripture many different ways, instead of face value.
gb9 - You have missed the point and self knowledge. Everything we do is with emotion,
it is who we are, it is part of life. We feel 24/7.

Now you believe I am not seeing thing the way you do, on what you call face value.

Now imagine a overly anxious caring person. Every imagined idea of what she could do
for someone she will do. And if she cannot do it, she feels guilty. I had an aunt like this
who would just do too much, which we neither asked for or needed.

Now another person who basically leaves people alone, unless they are asked to get
involved. There thoughts do not even go to what might be helpful or good to do.

Now these two folks would react to a phrase seeing what is good and not doing it, very
differently, and in a sense both would be right.

So once you set morality on such a subjective footing you reinforce both approaches without
meaning to. So Peter means something else. He is looking at obvious need and an obvious
thing that could be done to help, but is simply ignored. This is what he is calling sin, the obvious
obligation and expression of love that is being repressed.

So this is my reading of the situation. I do not see another reading that makes sense unless you
actually are prepared to offer one.
 
Apr 30, 2016
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There is nothing "simple" about the doctrine of once saved, always saved. It's advocates rip verses out of context and apply a meaning to them that contradicts other verses.
This is why it takes pages to explain one verse.

This is why some here copy and paste. They just repeat the same incorrect doctrine over and over again.

Taking verses out to make them mean what they want to. Twisting the words of Jesus. Always going to verses that seem to say what they want them to say instead of the simple words of our Lord, and taking the ENTIRE NEW TESTAMENT in context TO ITSELF.

Always talking about context and never paying heed to their own words.

Then the TRUE GOSPEL of CHRIST has to be depicted as garbage.

Nice.
 
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[/COLOR]I NEVER said now that we have chosen Jesus, let's just do nothing for His Kingdom. Typical straw man argument. Doing something for His Kingdom (good works) is what believers are saved FOR and NOT BY (Ephesians 2:8-10). You seem to have this backwards.

Genuine believers love Jesus and will keep His commandments. Keeping His commandments is not forced or legalistic for genuine believers. 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him (demonstrative evidence), if we keep His commandments. 1 John 5:3 - For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. BTY the Greek word for "keep" is "tereo" which means to keep, to guard, to watch over, preserve. It doesn't mean sinless, perfect obedience to all of Christ's commandments 100% of the time. We are not sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolutely perfect, 100% of the time.

Genuine believers do keep His commandments, which is the demonstrative evidence that they truly know Him. 1 John 2:4 - The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. ​That sounds rather serious. There are many deceived people who will be in for the shock of their lives at the judgment (Matthew 7:22-23).


Hi MMD

I just got back here and don't know where I left off!!

Did I ever answer you? Don't know.

Just want to say this. Strawman arguement. What's that?

I talk and say what I need to say. If it falls under a fallacy, well, too bad. I'm not going to study the list of fallacies just so I could talk to you !

You say that you NEVER SAID that we're to do NOTHING for HIS KINGDOM.

OK.

I'm not even reading the rest of your post.

Answer this:

THEN WHY ARE YOU ARGUING WITH ME????

If I'm saying works are necessary
And YOU agree that you NEVER said we're NOT TO DO WORKS...

Why are you not agreeing with me??
 
Apr 30, 2016
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Amen!!

I partake of His obedience and I am obedient in Him.

What does being OBEDIEN IN HIM mean exactly?

Why not be obedient FOR Him, like He asked you to??

John 14:15
John 15:14
 
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Actually I was spurred on as well by reading some of your posts in another thread the other day. You also discussed the need for grace to teach us and you used Titus 2:11-13. We are so ignorant of the spiritual realities because we are so used to being taught through our hunk of meat minds that can only see the natural. I must admit., my brain has failed me for so many years I have no faith in it whatsoever!!

It's lead me down paths of darkness and confusion because no one ever taught me that the Holy Spirit does a work of supernatural proportions. He validated the truth and then works in our minds in such a way that we are daily changed by grace through faith. Not by works of the flesh. Beautiful lives that reflect Jesus comes as a natural response to the good things the Holy Spirit is doing in our minds. Our works follow out of the now spiritual awareness of who we are in Christ and what we are called to do and we are eager to be called to do what we were made to do.

The gift of no condemnation always comes into play because in Christ we are not condemned any longer. We are called to look to Jesus and the Holy Spirit shows us exactly how that is done. He never points to us and our sin (as I was taught as a Baptist) but to our righteous standing in Christ which then reminds us of who we really are and how we can now by grace through faith walk accordingly in the power of the Holy Spirit and not in the power of the flesh.
You're right JM and I'm sorry if you didn't trust Jesus from the beginning of your born-again life.

But what you're doing is going from one extreme to the other.

We SHOULD be pointed to our sin. Not that we should think of it every moment.
I like Philippians 4:8

You were taught wrong by the Baptist Church. It's rather unfortunate. When I became born-again, I literally met Jesus.
I never had read the bible, never had done any bible study. I trusted HIM, and believed in HIM.

I will say this, however, God DOES EXPECT stuff from us. He does expect us to be nice and good people, He does expect us to do what His Son taught us to do.

We are daily changed by grace through Faith, but also by works of flesh. When we do some good work (work is anything you do now because you do it for God) it strengthens us, it makes the Holy Spirit feel like He's not wasting His time standing by our side, it makes heaven happy.

SO, would you agree with this?
 
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Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.
I see.

Romans 4:5

So you DO THINK we're to do nothing for God.

The truth comes out.
 
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Here is an article the gives several examples of how leaders in the early Church spoke out against the heresies of the Gnostics in the 2nd & 3rd centuries, proving that it was the Gnostics who first introduced the doctrine of "once saved, always saved" into the Church. This doctrine was later embraced by Augustine, then John Calvin, who passed it along to Reformed Churches only to be embraced later by Baptists.

Bible Question:

Did the primitive church preach the doctrine of once saved always saved? My pastor says that this doctrine is heresy and it wasn't preached until after the 1500's during the Reformation. Was this in the Nicean creed?

Bible Answer:


The writings of the early church fathers indicate that they did not all agree with the statement “once saved always saved.” Some of the early Christian writers appear to have believed that a person could lose his or her salvation by sinning and others believed that a person could lose his or her salvation if he or she no longer believed in Jesus. Here are a variety of quotes from some very significant early church fathers.

Justin Martyr – The first quote comes from Justin Martyr (A.D. 100-165).

But I believe that even those, who have been persuaded . . . to observe the legal dispensation along with their confession of God in Christ, shall probably be saved. And I hold, further, that such as have confessed and known this man to be Christ, yet who have gone back from some cause to the legal dispensation, and have denied that this man is Christ, and have not repented before death, shall by no means be saved. Further, I hold that those of the seed of Abraham who live according to the law, and do not believe in this Christ before death, shall likewise not be saved . . . – Justin Martyr, Dialogue Of Justin 47

At the end of the quote it is clear that Justin believes that anyone who denies Jesus is the Christ will not be saved; that is, he or she will go to hell. At the start of the passage, he is not sure that someone will be saved if he or she believes in Jesus but is disobedient. Justin believes that faith and obedience go together. He agrees with James 2:26 and 1 John 2:4 which say,
For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. (NASB) James 2:26
The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him . . . (NASB) 1 John 2:4
The Bible teaches that someone who claims to be a Christian but does not live like one is a liar. They are not real Christians. Likewise, someone who might live like a Christian but does not believe in Jesus is not saved.

Shepherd of Hermas – Some have claimed that the writer of the Pastor of Hermas or Shepherd of Hermas (A.D. 155-180) believed that a Christian could lose his or her salvation and quoted the following passage,

They only who fear the Lord and keep His commandments have life with God; but as to those who keep not His commandments, there is no life in them. Shepherd of Hermas, 2.7 (A.D. 155).

Another passage seems to say the same thing,

And he said, “If you do not guard yourself against [anger], you and your house lose all hope of salvation . . . Hermas. Pastor of Hermas. Book 1.4.1.

But just a few sentences away we read this,

“Hear now,” said he, “how wicked is the action of anger, and in what way it overthrows the servants of God by its action, and turns them from righteousness. But [anger] does not turn away those who are full of faith, nor does it act on them, for the power of the Lord is with them. Hermas. Shepherd of Hermas. Book 1-2, Commandment Fourth, Chap. 1.

This passage reveals that the author of the Shepherd of Hermas did not believe that a true Christian could lose his salvation.

Irenaeus
– The Christian writer, Irenaeus (A.D. 120-200), appears to believe that Christians are not “once saved always saved” with the following quote,

Those who do not obey Him . . . have ceased to be His sons. – Irenaeus, Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book 4.41.3.

But several sentences earlier he said this,

But with respect to obedience and doctrine we are not all the sons of God: those only are so who believe in Him and do His will. And those who do not believe, and do not obey His will, are sons and angels of the devil, because they do the works of the devil. Irenaeus, Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book 41, 2.

What is our conclusion? Irenaeus believed as Justin Martyr did. Faith and obedience go together. One must be connected to the other. Therefore, Irenaeus believed that a person who lives a life of disobedience is not a true Christian, even if he once claimed to be a Christian. He agrees with James 2:14-26.

Tertullian – Tertullian (A.D. 150-220) makes the following statement which echoes the same message of 1 John 2:19.

But what if a bishop, if a deacon, if a widow, if a virgin, if a doctor, if even a martyr, have fallen from the rule (of faith), will heresies on that account appear to possess the truth? Do we prove the faith by the persons, or the persons by the faith? No one is wise, no one is faithful, no one excels in dignity, but the Christian; and no one is a Christian but he who perseveres even to the end. Tertullian, The Prescription Against Heretics, Chap 3.

1 John 2:19 says this,
They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. (NASB) 1 John 2:19
Throughout the New Testament the Holy Spirit has stated that a true Christian, one who believes in Jesus, will persevere or continue in the faith until the end. The following quote from Tertullian seems to imply that he believed a Christian could lose his or her salvation by disobedience. If so, we must remember that scripture contains the truth and not Tertullian.
But the world returned unto sin; in which point baptism would ill be compared to the deluge. And so it is destined to fire; just as the man too is, who after baptism renews his sins: so that this also ought to be accepted as a sign for our admonition. Tertullian, On Repentance, 2.9

Origen – The writer Origen (A.D. 185-254) said this,

If there is any other nature which is holy, it possesses this property of being made holy by the reception or inspiration of the Holy Spirit, not having it by nature, but as an accidental quality, for which reason it may be lost, in consequence of being accidental. So also a man may possess an accidental righteousness, from which it is possible for him to fall away. Origen, Origen De Principilis, Book , Chap 8.

Origen contrasts true righteousness, given by the Holy Spirit, to an “accidental” righteousness. Those who do have the righteousness of God, which is given by faith through Jesus Christ, are truly righteous.
If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. (NASB) Rom. 8:10

. . . the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe . . . (NASB) Rom. 3:22
Origen seems to agree with this statement. Another quote from Origen echoes Christ’s teaching,

He who has not denied himself, but denied Christ, will experience the saying, “I also will deny him.” – Origen. Gospel of Matthew. Book 12. 24.

Jesus simply said that another who rejects Him will be rejected.
But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven. (NASB) Matt. 10:33
Cyprian – The last quote comes from Cyprian,

Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined to an adulteress, is separated from the promises of the Church; nor can he who forsakes the Church of Christ attain to the rewards of Christ. He is a stranger; he is profane; he is an enemy. He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not the Church for his mother. Cyprian, Treatises of Cyprian. Treaties 1.6.

He also echoes 1 John 2:19.
Conclusion:

These men wrote from about A.D. 100 – 250. We do not find any statements to the effect that once a Christian is saved, he or she is always saved. But we do find a consistent belief, except for a few instances, that faith and works go together. This is consistent with the teachings of the Bible.

The earliest statement regarding “once saved always saved” comes from Augustine (A.D. 354-430).

It was left to Augustine to speak a clear word for perseverance in pre-Reformation times. Starting with predestination, he saw that election to eternal life inevitably involves final perseverance. Since salvation is always God’s gift, he entitled his work on perseverance On the Gift of Perseverance. He denied, however, that the believer can have any assurance of his final salvation. Carl F. Henry. Basic Christian Doctrines. Baker Book House, 1962.

It is important to note that the doctrine of “Once Saved Always Saved” did not appear in the literature of the church until the Reformation period. A review of the existing literature from the early church fathers suggests that most of them believed faith and works must both exist for a person to be a true Christian. While no person is perfect, the pattern of life must be present. Only a few seem to believe that a person can lose his or her salvation by disobedience. But it is also possible that they are only observing the biblical truth stated in James 2:17 and 1 John 2:19.
Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. (NASB) James 2:17

What is most important is, “Does the Bible teach, ‘Once Saved Always Saved.?'” The opinion of the early church fathers does not constitute truth. The early church fathers were not inspired authors. But Jesus and the apostles were. Jesus did not teach and the Bible does not teach that once a person believes in Jesus Christ he or she is going to heaven regardless of what he or she does in the future. James 2:26 captures the truth that faith and works go together. A true Christian will believe and obey. A true Christian will not leave the faith. Someone who claims to believe and lives like the world or leaves the faith is a liar, and 1 John 2:4 says the truth is not in him or her. However, we must remember that only God knows if one has actually left the faith. We do not see as God sees. The statement “Once Saved Always Saved” is misleading. It should be worded as follows, “Saved Only Once” or “Once Truly Saved Always Saved.” Once God selects people for salvation they have been selected and they will not depart from the faith. Those who have been truly saved will never depart from the faith. The Nicean Creed does not address this subject.

https://www.neverthirsty.org/bible-...each-the-doctrine-of-once-saved-always-saved/
I would be so happy if you never spoke of Augustine again.
No other early theologian agreed with much of what he said.
He changed his mind about concepts.
He made a mess with predestination... at least it wasn't double predestination, but I Always get him put in my face.

Also, none of the early Church fathers I know about believed in OSAS.
They believe in WORKS.

A nasty word nowadays.

Cheap grace is what many want.
God has Grace and books could be written on this.
He give us His grace.
Some cheapen it and wish to give nothing in return.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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Works are NOT necessary for salvation or for "staying saved". It's a doctrine of the devil that negates the very grace of God that is in Christ for walking by the spirit. We are saved by grace through faith and His life in us manifests as good works being done by His life in and through us.

In Christ we have redemption - the forgiveness of sins through His blood - not our "good works".

Good works birthed from the spirit inside of us are the good works that God has already prepared for us to walk in. Eph. 2:10 These are the fruit of union with Christ.

These "good works" do not produce salvation nor keep us saved. That is an anti-Christ belief system that is from the world's way of thinking and believing. Only belief in what Christ has already done in His finished work brings true salvation and the grace needed to walk in Him while on this earth.

Jesus said that the Holy Spirit will be in us forever, John 14:16 Jesus is not a liar. We can trust in Him - He will be faithful to us because He cannot deny Himself.

The more we rely on the grace of God - the more good works will be manifested in and through us as can be seen in the life of Paul.

2 Corinthians 9:8 (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

1 Corinthians 15:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.

 
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All I can say is I could not disagree more!

Being justified is a singular event and when we have been justified, we are credited with the righteousness of Jesus.

Righteousness being we are in "right standing." We are born again only once this begins our eternal life and a person cannot be unborn. Why do you think Jesus used this analogy.

Our fellowship is not salvation, fellowship is restored but this is not what saves us and gives us eternal life.
UnderGrace,

I agree with you 100% about Justification.

Could you please explain to me what Sanctification is?

Thanks.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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I see.

Romans 4:5

So you DO THINK we're to do nothing for God.

The truth comes out.
What did Paul say in Romans 4:5? Is faith or works accounted for righteousness? Does this mean we are to do nothing for God after faith has been accounted for righteousness? NO. Elsewhere, Paul said we are saved by grace through faith, NOT WORKS, *For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus "to do nothing?" NO. We (believers) are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus UNTO/FOR good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them (Ephesians 2:8-10). That is the truth. We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. Is that difficult for you to understand?
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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sanctification means to set a person or thing apart for the use intended by it' designer. it also means to make holy. can't you look up definitions of your own, or are you just asking " gottcha " questions?
 
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Those who are found in Him and have been accounted as righteous through faith practice righteousness BECAUSE they are born of Him and not in order to become born of Him.

*We see a contrast between children of God and children of the devil in 1 John 3:7-10.

1 John 3:7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
Persons who try to work and be good for their salvation and don't know Jesus are not saved.

WHY do you keep talking about them?
Do you think that born-again Christians who work are unsaved??
 
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sanctification means to set a person or thing apart for the use intended by it' designer. it also means to make holy. can't you look up definitions of your own, or are you just asking " gottcha " questions?
I know definitions gb9.

Why not let me go about this my own way please.

I don't do GOTCHA questions.
I have a purpose in mind.

If I need an explanation or definition, you think I'll ask someone I don't even agree with???
 
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sanctification means to set a person or thing apart for the use intended by it' designer. it also means to make holy. can't you look up definitions of your own, or are you just asking " gottcha " questions?
What would you call the "intended use" by the designer?

Anyway, you're ALMOST right, just a tad off.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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sanctification means to set a person or thing apart for the use intended by it' designer. it also means to make holy. can't you look up definitions of your own, or are you just asking " gottcha " questions?

Sanctification and holy simply means as you have said - "set apart" - or "other" - that is why God is called "holy" - There is no "other" like Him. He is "set apart" from all things.

There were garments that were holy - does that mean they were "progressively" getting holy?....No, of course not - they were "set apart" for use.

There were holy days - does that mean the were "progressively" being sanctified. The gold was "sanctified" in the temple.

Lot's of examples of the real use of the term "set apart/sanctified".

Godliness is a better way of describing the process of "working out what already is in us in Christ in our inner man the sanctification that is ours because we are in Christ" - the new creation in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness.

Hebrews 10:14 says "we are sanctified" and it is in the present passive - which means we are being "set apart" and it is all done passively to us because we are in Christ and we are being "transformed" by the Holy Spirit as we behold the glory of the Lord as in a mirror. 2 Cor 3:17-18.

We already are sanctified ( set apart ) because we are in Christ now as these scriptures clearly show.

Sometimes our religious teachings are ingrained in our minds and when we hear something "different" we balk at them and of course it's heresy to us...as usual...:)

Christ is our sanctification:

1 Corinthians 1:30 (NASB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

Acts 20:32 ; Acts 26:18; Rom. 15:16; 1 Cor. 1:2; 1 Cor. 6:19; Heb. 10:10; Jude 1:1 - all these scriptures say that we as Christians are already sanctified/set-apart.

They are either in the Greek perfect tense or the past tense and they are passive which means it is something done to us - not us doing it.

Now, I believe as we work out the sanctification and life of Christ that is in us in our new creation that is in Christ now - we are then set apart/sanctified for use by the Lord here in this earth.

This is where godliness has great gain not only in this life but in the world to come. God rewards us for the work that He does through and in us. What a great salvation and awesome Lord we belong to!
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Persons who try to work and be good for their salvation and don't know Jesus are not saved.
Amen!

WHY do you keep talking about them?
Because there are many deceived people who are trying to work for their salvation, yet don't truly know Jesus, even though they may know about Him.

Do you think that born-again Christians who work are unsaved??
No. Born-again Christians are to work BECAUSE they are saved and not in order to become saved. We must not put the cart before the horse.
 
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What did Paul say in Romans 4:5? Is faith or works accounted for righteousness? Does this mean we are to do nothing for God after faith has been accounted for righteousness? NO. Elsewhere, Paul said we are saved by grace through faith, NOT WORKS, *For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus "to do nothing?" NO. We (believers) are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus UNTO/FOR good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them (Ephesians 2:8-10). That is the truth. We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. Is that difficult for you to understand?
Ummm.

We're not discussing righteousness right now.
Would this be what you call a strawman???

What I'm asking is this:

IS IT NECESSARY TO DO WORKS FOR GOD?

OR IS IT NOT NECESSARY??

This is what I want to know.

righteousness happens to be a different topic.
 
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Amen!

Because there are many deceived people who are trying to work for their salvation, yet don't truly know Jesus, even though they may know about Him.

No. Born-again Christians are to work BECAUSE they are saved and not in order to become saved. We must not put the cart before the horse.
Wow. It is difficult to get to the last line....

ARE WORKS NECESSARY OR NOT?

I think everyone here is saved...

So, Does Jesus want us to OBEY His commands or not? (whatever the reason may be)

John 15:14
John 14:15

So many more.... but those two should do.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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I know definitions gb9.

Why not let me go about this my own way please.

I don't do GOTCHA questions.
I have a purpose in mind.

If I need an explanation or definition, you think I'll ask someone I don't even agree with???
o.k. go about trying to prove works-based lies. i'm out.