Are you saved if you are not obedient?
- Thread starter Rokurac
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Corinthians 6:9-10, "Do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the reign of Yah? Do not be deceived. Neither those who whore, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor greedy of gain, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers shall inherit the reign of Yah.”[/FONT]
R
Depending on what thread they are in Christians will say you can have no works and still be saved, and then they will also say that Christians will have works. So to know what a Christian's answer is depends on which part of what they wrote you have read. Sometimes they agree with Paul, other times they agree with John.
Quite true! However any righteousness we have is given to us it is not of ourselves.
A person in whom the Spirit of God is working and indwelling will not exhibit the lifestyles cited above.
I am not advocating or excusing an immoral life. I'm talking about who gets the credit for a life that is pleasing to God.
A person in whom the Spirit of God is working and indwelling will not exhibit the lifestyles cited above.
I am not advocating or excusing an immoral life. I'm talking about who gets the credit for a life that is pleasing to God.
R
How can a Christian's disobedient life mean that he is, both, saved despite his disobedience and not saved because he is disobedient? I think it's obvious that we have to reconsider what Paul was saying. Obviously, the works he is talking about can not be the person's works of personal obedience and holiness. If they are then he is contradicting what John said. John said the person who has no change of life is not born again. John does not say a person with no works is saved despite his disobedience.
There is no such thing as a christian's disobedient life over an extended time. God will chasten a disobedient believer. If that does not bring a believer into obedience, God will call him/her home early.
The question is what are we to obey? The answer is that we are to obey the Holy Spirit, NOT a rule book.
The question is what are we to obey? The answer is that we are to obey the Holy Spirit, NOT a rule book.
Q
So is creating an image of God in the likeness of man, a "work of the Spirit of Christ"? Is creating a "Holy Day" after the imagination of our own minds, and rejecting God's, a "Work of the Spirit of Christ?" The scripture Hiz posted starts out with:
"Be not deceived". So if I "believe" Christ's Spirit is on me, but I steal money from my neighbor, it is a pretty good indication from my "Works" that I am deceived. YES?
So what if I believe to be a "filled with the Spirit of God" yet I cheat on my wife with the neighbors wife next door?
You would say that this person is deceived, YES? That even though he claims to have "Faith" in God, his works show that he does not.
So what about the First and Greatest Commandment? Didn't the same God that said don't steal, and don't commit adultery, also say don't create images of God in the likeness of anything, including man? Didn't the Same God that said "don't steal" also teach it is a sin the create our own "Feasts unto the Lord"?
How is it unrighteous to steal, but not unrighteous to create images of God? How is it unrighteous to commit adultery, but not unrighteous to create our own "High Days"?
Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Why would a person who claims to know God do such things? Because they didn't "Take Heed" they are not deceived.
The problem with deceit is that a person who is in this state, is the one who is the most convinced they are not.
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
Seems like John gives us the perfect test to check if we have been deceived or not.
"Be not deceived". So if I "believe" Christ's Spirit is on me, but I steal money from my neighbor, it is a pretty good indication from my "Works" that I am deceived. YES?
So what if I believe to be a "filled with the Spirit of God" yet I cheat on my wife with the neighbors wife next door?
You would say that this person is deceived, YES? That even though he claims to have "Faith" in God, his works show that he does not.
So what about the First and Greatest Commandment? Didn't the same God that said don't steal, and don't commit adultery, also say don't create images of God in the likeness of anything, including man? Didn't the Same God that said "don't steal" also teach it is a sin the create our own "Feasts unto the Lord"?
How is it unrighteous to steal, but not unrighteous to create images of God? How is it unrighteous to commit adultery, but not unrighteous to create our own "High Days"?
Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Why would a person who claims to know God do such things? Because they didn't "Take Heed" they are not deceived.
The problem with deceit is that a person who is in this state, is the one who is the most convinced they are not.
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
Seems like John gives us the perfect test to check if we have been deceived or not.
Last edited:
R
The Holy Spirit writes the 'rules' on our hearts, and gives us the motivation and ability to keep them. So I think what you mean is 'we obey the rules through the Holy Spirit', not 'we are to obey the Holy Spirit, NOT a rule book'.
You're contradicting John again. You are saying this person will be killed by God, appear before him with no works at the Judgment, and be saved. Meanwhile, John says the person without the changed life is not born again.
You're contradicting John again. You are saying this person will be killed by God, appear before him with no works at the Judgment, and be saved. Meanwhile, John says the person without the changed life is not born again.
These two issues are not contradictory.
A. A believer will exhibit changes in his life
B. A believer who exhibits a high enough degree of disobedience may be taken home early.
This does not constitute a logical contradiction.
If you still want to press this issue, it's not difficult to parse it out.. so we can certainly do that if needed.
If one is not trusting in the Perfect Obedience of Jesus, they are not saved no matter how much works they have.
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
(Tit 3:5)
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
(Rom 5:19)
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
(Tit 3:5)
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
(Rom 5:19)
Defending sin, but not defending sin. Saved even if living in willful sin, but you are not truly saved if you are still a slave to sin. Double-talk.
"Works got nothing to do with salvation"
-"Oh so you can live in willful rebellion and open disobedience and still be saved?"
-"No no, that person was never truly saved, genuine faith produces fruit...... But everyone is gonna mess up, we are saved by faith alone"
-"Ok. *Preaches against sin, tells people to repent or they wont inherit the kingdom galatians 5:21*
-"Thats works salvation. we arent saved by works."
-"But you just said genuine faith produces works?"
-"Yeah but you're saved by faith alone, you cant add anything to faith or its a false gospel"
Its a never ending cycle. There are hundreds of verses in the bible that directly link DEEDS to SALVATION including the last book of the new testament and the last chapter of it.
There is no escaping it. John 5:28-29.
I already know the mental gymnastics of saying those who are saved by faith alone will then produce these good works and thats why its not works salvation.
Could someone please explain to me, what exactly is achieved by these mental gymnastics and why are they performed? Whats the reason for it, other than just holding onto the reformation traditions of sola this and sola that?
Is there any real reason for doing so?
"We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone" <- Thats the type of mental gymnastics im referring to, explanation please.
"Works got nothing to do with salvation"
-"Oh so you can live in willful rebellion and open disobedience and still be saved?"
-"No no, that person was never truly saved, genuine faith produces fruit...... But everyone is gonna mess up, we are saved by faith alone"
-"Ok. *Preaches against sin, tells people to repent or they wont inherit the kingdom galatians 5:21*
-"Thats works salvation. we arent saved by works."
-"But you just said genuine faith produces works?"
-"Yeah but you're saved by faith alone, you cant add anything to faith or its a false gospel"
Its a never ending cycle. There are hundreds of verses in the bible that directly link DEEDS to SALVATION including the last book of the new testament and the last chapter of it.
There is no escaping it. John 5:28-29.
I already know the mental gymnastics of saying those who are saved by faith alone will then produce these good works and thats why its not works salvation.
Could someone please explain to me, what exactly is achieved by these mental gymnastics and why are they performed? Whats the reason for it, other than just holding onto the reformation traditions of sola this and sola that?
Is there any real reason for doing so?
"We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone" <- Thats the type of mental gymnastics im referring to, explanation please.
7
then we have the parable of the one lost sheep...now if the sheep was not a part of the flock, seems to me the shepherd would have shrugged his shoulders and gone and had a good nights sleep
I don't know about anyone else, but I would have been an orphan if my physical parents had cast me out for disobeying or thinking I new better than they did
we have to grow up
just like children in this world, we learn obedience by disobeying and growing up
you cannot make up your mind to obey. you have to live the decision and you do not come to it because you think you should
I know people like to hang on God's love, but for me, it is God's mercy that melts my heart every time
I don't know about anyone else, but I would have been an orphan if my physical parents had cast me out for disobeying or thinking I new better than they did
we have to grow up
just like children in this world, we learn obedience by disobeying and growing up
you cannot make up your mind to obey. you have to live the decision and you do not come to it because you think you should
I know people like to hang on God's love, but for me, it is God's mercy that melts my heart every time
You can't. When a man is truly 'saved' God will gradually work obedience within him (Phil 2.13). At times he will be disobedient. Then God will chasten him to produce obedience. But He has plenty of time. It is man who is in a hurry,
What was Paul saying??
But he did not say that they would never be disobedient. How many are fully obedient?
Neither does Paul. But both know that he can be disobedient for a while.
What was Paul saying??
But he did not say that they would never be disobedient. How many are fully obedient?
Neither does Paul. But both know that he can be disobedient for a while.
NO,,,a True Christian will tell you that one is 'saved' by faith and faith alone. When you are saved, you will receive the Holy Spirit who will then teach, guide and protect you from outside forces. The Holy Spirit will also initiate within you the works that comes after you are saved. Of course, if you are not truly saved, no Holy Spirit will be forthcoming and your works are worthless.
Have a Blessed evening
Blade
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]2 Timothy 2:19, "However, the solid foundation of Yah stands firm, having this seal*, “ [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]knows those who are His, Let everyone who names the Name of Messiah turn away from unrighteousness.”
Strong's Concordance *"seal"is word #G4973 - sphragis: a seal, a signet, Original Word: σφραγίς, ῖδος, ἡ, Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine, Transliteration: sphragis, Phonetic Spelling: (sfrag-ece'), Short Definition: a signet-ring, impression of a seal, the proof, Definition: a seal, signet ring, the impression of a seal, that which the seal attests, the proof.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The word “unrighteousness” is word #G93 ἀδικία – adikia, ad-ee-kee'-ah, (legal) injustice (properly the quality, by implication the act); moral wrongfulness (of charter, life or act):—iniquity, unjust, unrighteousness, wrong.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Exodus 13:9, “And it shall be as a *sign to you on your hand and as a reminder between your eyes, that the Torah (Instructions/Law) of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]is to be in your mouth, for with a strong hand [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]has brought you out of Mitsrayim.”
The word *Sign is word #H226 – owth from Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, Hebrew Dictionary: meaning mark, token, sign, consent, flag, evidence of consent.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]H226 [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]אוֹת [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]'owth (oth), a signal (literally or figuratively), as a flag, beacon, monument, omen, prodigy, evidence, etc., [probably from H225 (in the sense of appearing)], KJV: mark, miracle, (en-)sign, token.[/FONT]
Strong's Concordance *"seal"is word #G4973 - sphragis: a seal, a signet, Original Word: σφραγίς, ῖδος, ἡ, Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine, Transliteration: sphragis, Phonetic Spelling: (sfrag-ece'), Short Definition: a signet-ring, impression of a seal, the proof, Definition: a seal, signet ring, the impression of a seal, that which the seal attests, the proof.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The word “unrighteousness” is word #G93 ἀδικία – adikia, ad-ee-kee'-ah, (legal) injustice (properly the quality, by implication the act); moral wrongfulness (of charter, life or act):—iniquity, unjust, unrighteousness, wrong.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 5:17, "All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not unto death."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Exodus 13:9, “And it shall be as a *sign to you on your hand and as a reminder between your eyes, that the Torah (Instructions/Law) of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]is to be in your mouth, for with a strong hand [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]has brought you out of Mitsrayim.”
The word *Sign is word #H226 – owth from Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, Hebrew Dictionary: meaning mark, token, sign, consent, flag, evidence of consent.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]H226 [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]אוֹת [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]'owth (oth), a signal (literally or figuratively), as a flag, beacon, monument, omen, prodigy, evidence, etc., [probably from H225 (in the sense of appearing)], KJV: mark, miracle, (en-)sign, token.[/FONT]
You were talking about a disobedient Christian life.
I said that over time there is no such thing.
By definition any christian's life is saved
Over time the work of the Holy Spirit in a believer's life will bring him/her into obedience.
If you believe a person who is persistently disobedient is unsaved; how can you refer to their life as a Christian life?
There is no answer to that!
I said that over time there is no such thing.
By definition any christian's life is saved
Over time the work of the Holy Spirit in a believer's life will bring him/her into obedience.
If you believe a person who is persistently disobedient is unsaved; how can you refer to their life as a Christian life?
There is no answer to that!