Are you saved if you are not obedient?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Are you saved if you are not obedient to Christ?

  • Yes

    Votes: 6 25.0%
  • No

    Votes: 18 75.0%

  • Total voters
    24
Feb 28, 2016
11,311
2,972
113
those of us who Love and serve and obey Jesus Christ, we will eventually come to the understanding
that there is only 'ONE-Way'...we may not fully understand all of the Words in unison at the
same time of our lives, but I can assure you, that we, all who Love and Serve and Obey Christ,
will unite' in 'full understanding at His given time...
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Defending sin, but not defending sin. Saved even if living in willful sin, but you are not truly saved if you are still a slave to sin. Double-talk.

"Works got nothing to do with salvation"
-"Oh so you can live in willful rebellion and open disobedience and still be saved?"
-"No no, that person was never truly saved, genuine faith produces fruit...... But everyone is gonna mess up, we are saved by faith alone"
-"Ok. *Preaches against sin, tells people to repent or they wont inherit the kingdom galatians 5:21*
-"Thats works salvation. we arent saved by works."
-"But you just said genuine faith produces works?"
-"Yeah but you're saved by faith alone, you cant add anything to faith or its a false gospel"


Its a never ending cycle. There are hundreds of verses in the bible that directly link DEEDS to SALVATION including the last book of the new testament and the last chapter of it.
There is no escaping it. John 5:28-29.

I already know the mental gymnastics of saying those who are saved by faith alone will then produce these good works and thats why its not works salvation.

Could someone please explain to me, what exactly is achieved by these mental gymnastics and why are they performed? Whats the reason for it, other than just holding onto the reformation traditions of sola this and sola that?
Is there any real reason for doing so?

"We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone" <- Thats the type of mental gymnastics im referring to, explanation please.

The only people defending sin here are those who somehow think they can be obedient enough that they have achieved some level of righteousness.

For those of us who understand, Gods standard is UNTEACHABLE, So I am not goin got PUFF MYSELF UP and think somehow I have made it, But press on and keep pressing on, even when I fall down. Because I know if I do fall behind, Jesus will leave th flock to come get me, because he promised he he would never let me go. SO I can continue on focusing on him, the spirit. And keep on moving .
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I don't want it both ways. I stated my position. I am not responsible for what someone else says.
I think John is clear. WHoever is born of God can not live in sin, because his seed is in him, Whoever ocntyinues in sin has never seen God or known him..
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 6:16, "Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves servants for obedience, you are servants of the one whom you obey, whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness?"[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 3:4, "Whoever commits sin* (#G266), transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."[/FONT]
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
You were talking about a disobedient Christian life.

I said that over time there is no such thing.

By definition any christian's life is saved

Over time the work of the Holy Spirit in a believer's life will bring him/her into obedience.

If you believe a person who is persistently disobedient is unsaved; how can you refer to their life as a Christian life?

There is no answer to that!
Then you agree that 1 Corinthians 3 is not a text to show that a 'believer' can have no works and still be saved. You seem to agree that if Paul is saying in 1 Corinthians 3 that a Christian can have no works and he will still be saved he is contradicting the fact that true believers will not be found to have no works.

Christians need to stop using 1 Corinthians 3 as a proof text that you can be disobedient and live in your old ways and you will still be saved. If a Christian has zero works of precious metal and stone and has only works of hay and wood he is not going to be saved when he stands before Christ when he comes back. Obviously, the works Paul is talking about there have to be something other than a person's personal obedience.
 
Feb 28, 2016
11,311
2,972
113
ROMANS 7:18-19-25.

For I know that in me ( that is, in my FLESH,) dwells no good thing: for to 'will' is present' with me;
but how to perform that which is good I find not. (NOT YET)!

For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the 'mind', I myself SERVE the 'Law of God';
but with the 'flesh, the law of sin.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
I think John is clear. WHoever is born of God can not live in sin, because his seed is in him, Whoever ocntyinues in sin has never seen God or known him..
Then you too must agree that Paul is not saying in 1 Corinthians 3 that the believer who has only works of hay is saved despite the fact that he has no works of precious metal and stone.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
ROMANS 7:18-19-25.

For I know that in me ( that is, in my FLESH,) dwells no good thing: for to 'will' is present' with me;
but how to perform that which is good I find not. (NOT YET)!

For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the 'mind', I myself SERVE the 'Law of God';
but with the 'flesh, the law of sin.
If you are using this to justify the thinking that you can live in disobedience and you will be saved you are deceived.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
NO,,,a True Christian will tell you that one is 'saved' by faith and faith alone. When you are saved, you will receive the Holy Spirit who will then teach, guide and protect you from outside forces. The Holy Spirit will also initiate within you the works that comes after you are saved. Of course, if you are not truly saved, no Holy Spirit will be forthcoming and your works are worthless.

Have a Blessed evening

Blade


So then Paul must be talking about something else when he talks about only having works of hay and still being saved. The works he is talking about can't be works of personal holiness/obedience because we all seem to be in agreement with John, at this moment anyway, that the person who does not have works is not saved.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
You can't. When a man is truly 'saved' God will gradually work obedience within him (Phil 2.13). At times he will be disobedient. Then God will chasten him to produce obedience. But He has plenty of time. It is man who is in a hurry,





What was Paul saying??




But he did not say that they would never be disobedient. How many are fully obedient?



Neither does Paul. But both know that he can be disobedient for a while.
The person Paul is talking about has no works of precious metals or stones, only works of hay. We know this because if he had some other works of metal and stone those would prevent him from being saved 'as through fire'.
 
Apr 15, 2017
2,867
653
113
Mat 15:10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
Mat 15:11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
Mat 15:16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
Mat 15:17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
Mat 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Mat 15:20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Some people think they are right with God despite thoughts,and actions,that are sinful,but Jesus said it is our thoughts,and actions,that define us,and if a person thinks sin,and does sin,then that is what is in their heart,so how are they clean.

2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Some people that claim Christ do not come to the truth that sin does affect their relationship with God,but they hold unto sin and think they are right with God.

Gal 6:6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Gal 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Whatever a person sows that shall they reap,and God tells the saints to not be deceived by that.

2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
2Co 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Luk 6:47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
Luk 6:48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
Luk 6:49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

All our thoughts are to be to the obedience of Christ,and if a person is not obedient to Christ then their foundation is built on sand,and they will fall.

1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Charity is greater than faith,and hope,and the only thing that we will possess,and know of all that we did on earth is our soul,and love,and the spirit goes back to God who gave it,and all else will pass away.

Everything stems from love,and is the greatest asset a Christian can have,and faith works by love.

1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Paul said he can have all faith so that he could remove mountains,but if he did not have faith he is nothing.

1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit(charity,love in action).
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

1Jn 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1Jn 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth(charity,love in action).

Without love,faith does not apply,and love does not think an evil thought,and does not sin by the Spirit,and helps the poor and needy.

1Sa 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
1Sa 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

To obey is better than sacrifice,for if a person is not obedient then they are rebellious,and asserting their own ways,and their own authority,and Jesus is not Lord in their life,and they are not led of the Spirit.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

If a person holds unto sin the blood of Jesus cannot wash it away.

To obey is better than sacrifice.
 
Feb 28, 2016
11,311
2,972
113
If you are using this to justify the thinking that you can live in disobedience and you will be saved you are deceived.
==============================================
I wasn't saying that at all, merely pointing out what we have to do to 'over-come-repent',,,
Paul won His 'race' and of course not through sin, but by over-coming through Loving Obedience...
 
Last edited:
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Then you too must agree that Paul is not saying in 1 Corinthians 3 that the believer who has only works of hay is saved despite the fact that he has no works of precious metal and stone.

I believe what paul said. If ANYONES work is BURNED, he will SUFFER LOSS. But He Himself WILL BE SAVED, as though through fire.

Imagine a man or woman who wake up in the middle of the night and their house is engulfed in flames, The escape through the fire, and when they get out, they have lost everything, but they are saved.

That is the point Paul is making.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
If you are using this to justify the thinking that you can live in disobedience and you will be saved you are deceived.

Again, Refer you to john.

The lost are living in disobedience, The just live by faith. Because they have been born of god.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
I believe what paul said. If ANYONES work is BURNED, he will SUFFER LOSS. But He Himself WILL BE SAVED, as though through fire.

Imagine a man or woman who wake up in the middle of the night and their house is engulfed in flames, The escape through the fire, and when they get out, they have lost everything, but they are saved.

That is the point Paul is making.
How can Paul be saying that the disobedient person with no works will be saved if John says the disobedient person with no works is not saved? Obviously we can not interpret the works that Paul is talking about as a person's personal works of holiness. But that is what Christians do to prove that you don't have to have works to be saved.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
How can the disobedient person with no works be saved if John says the disobedient person with no works is not saved? Obviously we can not interpret the works that Paul is talking about as a person's personal works of holiness. But that is what Christians do to prove that you don't have to have works to be saved.

Are you questioning Pauls words? or Johns? Are they contradicting each other?
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
Are you questioning Pauls words? or Johns? Are they contradicting each other?
I'm questioning people's interpretation of 1 Corinthians 3. So many Christians insist Paul is saying that we believers can have no works and we will still be saved, because salvation is not by works. But if that is what he is saying then he is directly contradicting John who said the person without works of righteousness is not born again. So obviously the works Paul is talking about in 1 Corinthians 3 are not works of personal holiness/obedience. If they are then he is contradicting John.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I'm questioning people's interpretation of 1 Corinthians 3. So many Christians insist Paul is saying that we believers can have no works and we will still be saved, because salvation is not by works. But if that is what he is saying then he is directly contradicting John who said the person without works of righteousness is not born again. So obviously the works Paul is talking about in 1 Corinthians 3 are not works of personal holiness/obedience. If they are then he is contradicting John.
Why do you not instead question your own interpretation.

John said a person can not live in sin who has been born of God. His context was in fighting a believe people could be saved and sin all they want, taught by licentious people. Gnostics, and even james spoke of those who were hearers only not doers.

Paul said a person can have their works burnt and suffer loss (he never mentioned sin at all)

and then try to resolve the two passages so they agree.

Would not that be easier?
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 22:12-15, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 12:14, “Pursue peace with all, and pursue set-apartness without which no one shall see the Master.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Thessalonians 4:7-8, “For Yah did not call us to uncleanness, but in set-apartness. Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but Yah, who also gives us His Set-apart Spirit.”[/FONT]
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
Why do you not instead question your own interpretation.

John said a person can not live in sin who has been born of God. His context was in fighting a believe people could be saved and sin all they want, taught by licentious people. Gnostics, and even james spoke of those who were hearers only not doers.

Paul said a person can have their works burnt and suffer loss (he never mentioned sin at all)

and then try to resolve the two passages so they agree.

Would not that be easier?
"Paul said a person can have their works burnt and suffer loss (he never mentioned sin at all)"

Okay, then you don't see the works Paul is talking about as being personal works of obedience or disobedience. What do you interpret them as being?