atheists

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Aug 5, 2013
624
2
0
Here is something for you to consider, though I doubt you will.
A long time ago, some really bad angels fornicated with human women.
Some of the angels were probably beasts of one sort or another
(a lot of legends/myths about half-human-half-beast monsters).
So the progeny produced were what you might call mutated freaks.
Some of these mutated freaks had tails.
Some had six fingers and toes on each extremity.
Some were probably reptilian.
The world was full of these evil monsters to the extent that God decided to KILL ALL FLESH on the earth (not the sea).
Some of the genes from these freaks survived through Noah's family and still exist.
If you believe in the "sons of God and daughters of men" explanation for the flood, then you've equated God with Hitler. Destroying life to get rid of a certain gene is the very definition of genocide. The reason that most of us see genocide as evil is because the ones being destroyed aren't deserving of the punishment -- it doesn't even matter if these people were "monsters", because they weren't responsible for being monsters (their parents would have). Do you really believe that people who are ugly or disfigured deserve death? Perhaps you are evil, too.

But this is a poor explanation for the flood, because killing them wouldn't have fixed the problem. Why wouldn't angels just have sex with humans after the flood, too? It's not as if the angels were punished. Again, the punishment would have fallen on the victims, not on the perpetrators. So I guess it's a good thing that the flood didn't actually happen.
 
I

Imperfect

Guest
If this is your view of evolution, then you simply don't know the history of evolution. Exactly what "ever-going habit of changing" do you think that it has gone through? When Darwin first conceived of the idea, he didn't know the mechanism behind it -- all he had observed was the effects. Shortly after his death, Mendel's discoveries of genetics gave evolution a mechanism and greater explanatory power. A scientist named LaMarck created a competing theory of evolution in which changes happened suddenly, from one generation to the other, but it wasn't widely accepted because his examples were few and didn't fit the general pattern. Within the last ten years, LaMarck's observations have been explained by epigenetics, a way that rapid changes in gene expressions over a generation can happen. None of these changes fit an "ever-going habit of changes", but rather fit my explanation of greater evidence making the theory more accurate.

And then there are the evolutionary lines. At one time, it was believed that humans came from gorillas because we look and act so much like them. When dinosaur bones were discovered, they were believed to be part of reptile evolution. These theories changed as soon as we were able to decode genes from both lines and compare markers... greater information made it clear that we were more closely related to chimpanzees and that dinosaurs more likely than not became modern birds. And it helps that we keep finding more fossils, establishing more links in the chain. Again, more information led to a more refined theory, not the need to "change the story".

Do you know the history of Christianity? Witch burnings used to be a part of that, and now they're not. Slavery used to be justified with the bible, and now it's not. Even in our own generation, we've seen a shift away from people dressed up in church and singing very old hymns to something more casual and modern (not in all churches, but in the "average" church). What is your explanation for these changes, if your religion is based on a never-changing truth and established in a book that doesn't change? Perhaps you shouldn't be so hard on science.
im sorry but i stopped reading at "darwin". he has no place on this board. he is completely irrelevant. honestly..
 
I

Imperfect

Guest
If you believe in the "sons of God and daughters of men" explanation for the flood, then you've equated God with Hitler. Destroying life to get rid of a certain gene is the very definition of genocide. The reason that most of us see genocide as evil is because the ones being destroyed aren't deserving of the punishment -- it doesn't even matter if these people were "monsters", because they weren't responsible for being monsters (their parents would have). Do you really believe that people who are ugly or disfigured deserve death? Perhaps you are evil, too.

But this is a poor explanation for the flood, because killing them wouldn't have fixed the problem. Why wouldn't angels just have sex with humans after the flood, too? It's not as if the angels were punished. Again, the punishment would have fallen on the victims, not on the perpetrators. So I guess it's a good thing that the flood didn't actually happen.
the proof of the flood says it did happen...
 
Aug 25, 2013
2,260
10
0
im sorry but i stopped reading at "darwin". he has no place on this board. he is completely irrelevant. honestly..
I, however, did read it. In summary Starcrash simply provided you some historical context which perhaps was relevant to the discussion at hand, I don't know. No part of his post contained a Darwinian defence of evolution, so you could have read it without ingesting anything too objectionable. :)

However, if you make any pretext at all of discussing evolution, then Darwin is not just relevant, he is absolutely necessary. Imagine if I agreed to have a discussion with you about some aspect of Christianity, but told you I would not read anything if you were going to talk about Jesus. You can’t separate Jesus from Christianity anymore than you can separate Darwin from evolution. If you want to discus evolution, well, I think that’s wonderful, but you would have to include Darwin in the discussion, at least at times, else-wise you are setting limits on what can be discussed; and if that is done an evolutionist might accuse you -- rightfully -- of refusing to consider the evidence.
 
Aug 25, 2013
2,260
10
0
the proof of the flood says it did happen...
That's like saying proof of the Big Bang says it did happen. Are you now persuaded the Big Bang happened. :)

Are you willing to present evidence to corroborate your claim that the Flood happened as told in scripture?
 

cavil51

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2012
147
3
18
1) If atheists don't believe in God, then why do they get mad at Him?
2) If atheists don't think He is real, then why do they blame him for everything?
3) If people can't tolerate other religious views other than their own, why do they hold to a position thats high in their own belief?
4) If people originated with or from monkeys, why then isn't it fully proven to be not a theory?
5) Why do they call it a theory, but still teach it through books and school?
I don't understand???????

1) Atheists will say they are not ~mad @ God~ as this would be an affirmation on their part that God exists.

2) Who they will blame are those representing religious belief systems that call into question THEIR belief system. As a result you will not see much of a jeremiad against Hinduism, Buddhism, Confucianism, for example, as these belief systems place no "requirements" or "restrictions" upon those who do not believe as they do.

3) You will note that atheists have the remarkable ability to ~selectively~ target specific belief systems and yet ignore others. You will see very little atheist activity against the Islamic belief system and yet this belief system has, as one of the tenets of its ~holy book~ the command to kill all those who are unbelievers (Quran 2:191-193). This is either extremely disingenuous on their part or simply cowardly in that they do not wish to antagonize individuals who very likely would kill them for their protests. Unlike targeting christians who are instructed to ~turn the other cheek~.

4) Evolution will never advance beyond theory as the acceptance or ~belief~ in evolution necessitates abandonment of the scientific method. The scientific method is simply this:
1. Make observations.
2. Propose a hypothesis.
3. Design and perform an experiment to test the hypothesis.
4. Analyze your data to determine whether to accept or reject the hypothesis.
5. If necessary, propose and test a new hypothesis.
As can be seen with ~step 3~ of the scientific method there is absolutely no way to design an experiment to test a hypothesis establishing evolution as anything beyond theory as this would necessitate the scientist to be present during the progress of the experiment. Notice that there are two important qualities about a hypothesis expressed as an "if … then" statement. First, it is testable; an experiment needs to be set up to test the validity of the statement. Second, it is falsifiable; an experiment could be devised that might reveal that such an idea is not true. If these two qualities are not met, then the question being asked cannot be addressed using the scientific method. It is interesting that one NEVER sees an experiment in scientific literature that addresses the possible falsity of evolution. This, in and of itself, should demonstrate to any and all the~protected status~ that evolutionary theory enjoys.
To the atheists who would argue at this point that God can not be proven by science, they would be correct in that statement since God is SUPERNATURAL and beyond the field of science in that it (science) can only investigate natural phenomena.

5) From a world perspective - if christianity is no longer the accepted norm of a society, something will necessarily ~fill the vacuum~. This can be demonstrated very simply by reviewing the results of those countries who adopted the communistic model for government. In that system God is cast aside. This was eloquently expressed by Lenin: "Atheism is a natural and inseparable portion of Marxism, of the theory and practice of Scientific Socialism." So, it is no surprise that evolution has become a main stay in our school system since religion in any form has been essentially banned.

Hope this helps! :)
 
C

CoooCaw

Guest
I, however, did read it. In summary Starcrash simply provided you some historical context which perhaps was relevant to the discussion at hand, I don't know. No part of his post contained a Darwinian defence of evolution, so you could have read it without ingesting anything too objectionable. :)

However, if you make any pretext at all of discussing evolution, then Darwin is not just relevant, he is absolutely necessary. Imagine if I agreed to have a discussion with you about some aspect of Christianity, but told you I would not read anything if you were going to talk about Jesus. You can’t separate Jesus from Christianity anymore than you can separate Darwin from evolution. If you want to discus evolution, well, I think that’s wonderful, but you would have to include Darwin in the discussion, at least at times, else-wise you are setting limits on what can be discussed; and if that is done an evolutionist might accuse you -- rightfully -- of refusing to consider the evidence.
Darwin was a racist who promissed to provide the proof in book 2 and never delivered
 
C

CoooCaw

Guest
more fantasy and citing facts not in evidence


There is a practically uncountable number of "transition forms" found in the fossil record. Even if you can't be bothered to do the research, I'm sure you're well-aware that many dinosaur bones have been found. Dinosaurs no longer walk the earth, so they are not a current species. The discovery of dinosaur bones was quite a shock to everyone, but evolution readily explained them... the bible didn't. The bible doesn't explain extinction, massive varieties of very similar species (such as the millions of species of ants), or the separation of different evolutionary lines by continent. Evolution does.

We might be "up to our neck in these fossils" if all bones fossilized, but they generally decompose instead. Natural disasters churn up fossils, or destroy them, or lose them. Of course we'd still expect to find a lot of fossils due to the sheer number of dead animals over a sheer number of years, and we do. Sorry that it isn't living up to your expectations.

Finally, a young earth isn't supported by science because of the sheer amount of evidence for an old earth. Radiation dating methods have found countless lava deposits that are millions and billions of years old, and the various elements that we'd expect to have lost to short half-lifes are indeed lost due to the passage of time. Observatories are constantly mapping the universe, finding new stars and placing them. To discover how far away a star is, one simply has to triangulate it. Did you ever take trigonometry in school? Given two points of a triangle (such as two observing telescopes), the distance between those two points and the angle between them, one can find the distance of the other sides of the triangle leading to the third point (a star). In this manner, we've found stars that are millions of miles away, suggesting that they've had millions of years for the light to travel to Earth. And once we found these "closer" stars, we could observe ones that were further away through parallax and change in a single observatory's position due to Earth's rotation. The universe continued to "get older" as we find more and more older things in the universe, and an accurate reading of background radiation helped us get a final age of the universe. Even if you thought that these readings of distances in the universe weren't accurate, do you realize how far off these estimates would have to be to get an age similar to the bible's? It's like a 99.999999% margin of error if you are to be believed.
 
Aug 25, 2013
2,260
10
0
I don't think that way, whenever i see the beautiful creation of God, the mysteries of the universe, i feel like I'm a small child wondering what an awesome brilliant God he might be.
I would agree with you that belief in God does not diminish the sense of awe people experience when coming face-to-face with the wonders of nature, but as an atheist I see why PebbleThrown might think that.

Sanashankar said:
The same God who created this

[image of a pretty spiral galaxy]

created this too

[image of cuddly kitten]

What a perfect God he is.
It is no wonder that after stating "What a perfect God he is" you did not show an image of Harlequin baby (more properly called Harlequin-type ichthyosis disease), caused by a genetic mutation it is one of the most horrific ailments I have ever seen, and I do not recommend anyone go to Wikipedia to view the image. The sad thing is, if you believe in God and would make the claim that pretty spiral galaxies and cute kittens are evidence of His goodness then what in heavens name does this genetic disease imply of that same God?
 
Aug 25, 2013
2,260
10
0
more fantasy and citing facts not in evidence
CoooCaw the proper response would be to site the specif things you think in error along with your own reasoning. Starcrash would then do the same; and so it would go back and forth until there was a clear winner. It may be though that you don't feel up to the task?

Your response, "more fantasy and citing facts not in evidence", I can only see as a reluctance to debate the issues he's raised.
 
Aug 25, 2013
2,260
10
0
Darwin was a racist who promissed to provide the proof in book 2 and never delivered
Whatever he may have been, and we can certainly discus the racism that was prominent in Western society in the 1800s, it has no bearing on whether evolutionary theory is correct or not. I am sure the same was true of the great leaders in the USA during that same era, but does that diminish their other accomplishments? The religious leaders and politicians in the Confederate states constantly sited scripture in defence of slavery (you can research the passages they favoured).

Oh, and what do you mean by he "promissed to provide the proof in book 2"? First, it's not likely you read it so whether or no he succeeded is not your opinion but is the view of someone else who themselves many never have read "book 2". What is it you think he promised? I can only guess at what you might be referring to; better that you fill me in first, then I can respond.
 
Aug 25, 2013
2,260
10
0
1) If atheists don't believe in God, then why do they get mad at Him?
Cavil I have been posting too long and have to take a break, but I read part of your post and love your questions. I want very much to chat with. Thought I would just make you aware, at the least, that I hope to chat with you later. Many of your questions have already been discussed a length, at least by myself, but they could very well be fresh thoughts in your mind, so I will be pleased to provide you what responses I can.

Cyel
 

cavil51

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2012
147
3
18
I usually hang out in Bible Study chat. Come on in! :)
Oh, and the questions were not mine - they were Bryancampbell's, I merely attempted answering them.
 
I

Imperfect

Guest
I, however, did read it. In summary Starcrash simply provided you some historical context which perhaps was relevant to the discussion at hand, I don't know. No part of his post contained a Darwinian defence of evolution, so you could have read it without ingesting anything too objectionable. :)

However, if you make any pretext at all of discussing evolution, then Darwin is not just relevant, he is absolutely necessary. Imagine if I agreed to have a discussion with you about some aspect of Christianity, but told you I would not read anything if you were going to talk about Jesus. You can’t separate Jesus from Christianity anymore than you can separate Darwin from evolution. If you want to discus evolution, well, I think that’s wonderful, but you would have to include Darwin in the discussion, at least at times, else-wise you are setting limits on what can be discussed; and if that is done an evolutionist might accuse you -- rightfully -- of refusing to consider the evidence.
you put your trust in man and man doesnt know.

i guess that about sums it up.
 
B

BeanieD

Guest
I didn't see anyone lump them all together. There are good and bad in Every religon,n culture.
 
B

BeanieD

Guest
Enoch1nine, Why do you say this? "It takes one little miracle to change an atheist into a Jesus fanatic. I think they are the least of God's concerns."
 
B

BeanieD

Guest
OH, we don't HAVE to look for God, He comes to us in many ways and lets us know He is there, and He is real. Experience has taught me a lot, because I didn't want any part of God or any religon that made us boreing,better than thou snobs. That isn't what a life with God is all about.
 
Aug 25, 2013
2,260
10
0
you put your trust in man and man doesnt know.

i guess that about sums it up.
Imperfect, you didn't address any of the points I raised and you didn't address any from Starcrash before me.

Here's the thing, you involve yourself in a discussion on evolution when you attack the theory as false, that is fine, but then you make excuses not to engage in discussion. I think perhaps you do not feel confident enough to defend your position. I keep Wikipedia open on my desktop all the time when I am posting because people are always challenging me with things I don't know. For me forums are a great learning experience. I can't begin to tell you how much I've learned through discussions with Christians. If this is the reason for your hesitation just take one point at a time. I am certain I will be learning as much from you or even more than you do from me. Or perhaps evolution is just not something you care to know anything about?

As far as trusting Darwin goes, if he had written his book and that had been the end of it then I probably wouldn't know anything about the theory, but that's not what happened. Evolution took the scientific world by storm. I am not trusting in one man, but in an entire scientific establishment. And it is not just biologists that defend evolution but geneticists, geologists and other disciplines. You can say they are only men, but it is only men (and women) who constructed this scientific and technological wonder that we live in. Personally, I owe the medical scientific community my life. I have no doubt that the evolutionary biologists, and others, know what they are talking about.
 
Aug 25, 2013
2,260
10
0
Enoch1nine, Why do you say this? "It takes one little miracle to change an atheist into a Jesus fanatic. I think they are the least of God's concerns."
I was wondering that myself. Good question.