atheists

[Cycel]

I've never heard of anyone growing missing limbs. I also believe that there are no longer "miracles" like many claim. Many things ceased after the first century(which will lead to other arguments that I dont want to get into), and the big purpose for those miracles were so others would believe. When the books of the bible were completed and distributed throughout the world then that is when certain wonders began to die off.... so in a way I am a skeptic with you when it comes to miracles.

Well, I don't have any argument with you on this. Can you believe it? Your understanding of this matches what I've heard as well.

I now put stories of ghosts (which I thoroughly believed in once), alien abductions, UFOs, and yes even miracles, into the same category. Some years back a Christian buddy of mine handed me a news article and asked what I thought. It related a story of a bleeding statue in Montreal, witnessed by large numbers of people. The story was current at the time. I recall feeling a bit bewildered as the occurrence seemed well documented, but I took a deep breath, handed it back and said, "It must be a hoax." A few days later the perpetrator was caught in the act.

 

[Cycel]

Ookie dookie.

So then, let's talk about something else then Cycel. How about the origin of the universe? Do you think it's more logical to believe the universe has a cretor, or that the universe does not have a creator? And why?

LOL! Okay.

I think there was a time when it was most logical to believe in a Creator. You don't have to go too far back, after all, to reach a period when that assumption was the only choice available. You might find Cicero's, The Nature of the Gods, interesting. Written in 45 BC, he comes down in favour of the gods existing.

As an atheist, I have no reason to think God might exist and so predictably I believe the universe has a totally natural cause. I defer to the physicists for the explanation.

 

[Cycel]

This is for the atheists here, please, open your eyes and see this miracle: The Amputee Rap by Josh Sundquist - YouTube

Absolutely loved the Rap. Thanks for sharing. Passing it on.

But Simona, he didn't get his leg back.

 

[Cycel]

Yet scientists are not trying to figure out faith healing because there's nothing real there to study.

Except for one thing: the placebo effect.

 

[Cycel]

Here's a video for you, though.

I did see Derrin Brown interviewed once. Great documentary. Thanks for sharing Starcrash.

 

[danschance]

I was once healed. It was in high school and during finals. I had a fever, muscles ached and I was weak. I also had a very sore throat, my eyes burned and I had a metallic taste in my mouth. I found a quiet place to pray and asked God to heal me. Back then I was very spiritual and had great faith.

After the prayer I was still as sick as before but now I was angry with God for not healing me. As best I can recall, I prayed like this:

Lord Jesus, how is it that I am not healed? The bible says by Your stripes we are healed and yet I am not healed? If a son asks his earthly father for bread, will his earthly father hand him a stone? No, of course not and can I not expect more from you? You are the great Physician and there is nothing You can not heal. For me to swat at a gnat would be difficult than for You to heal me. You say the word and I am healed, yet I am still sick. I don't understand it, is the bible true or not? Do You honor your word or not? In Jesus name.

I got up from my seat and felt really let down by God..but then I realized my eyes no longer burned. I swalloed to test my sore throat and it felt fine. In my disbelief, I walked from one end of campus to the other to see if I felt weak or if my muscles would start to ache as they had before--and I felt fine.

I was healed.

 

[fozi]

The people who says that there is no God,start remembering him in times of pain and troubles.Actually God is in their hearts but they try to deceive themselves.As God has himself said that iam very close to u.....There is a creator and we are his creation,this fact is unforgettable.........God has himself asked people to observe this universe and happenings on this earth and u will find out that there is a creator behind it.But ,all these signs are for those who are wise ..
.

 

[Calmador]

But you interpreted it as healing from God. If you were a Muslim, you'd probably attribute it to Allah. If you were part of the New Age Movement, you would probably believe in a more generic spiritual healing through chi. The reason that we're not convinced is because you can't link cause and effect without this personal interpretation.

This is what I'm talking about, believing in miraculous healing when the process is murky and difficult to see (like an infection being fought by cells inside of your body). Where does this ever manifest in the observable world? If it could happen, scientists would descend on it like piranhas and try desperately to replicate it... why bother with expensive, unreliable medicine with side effects if we could unlock such perfect medicine? Yet scientists are not trying to figure out faith healing because there's nothing real there to study.

You assume scientists would... ever think maybe they wouldn't because of an agenda? Its a serious question. Have you ever considered maybe most main stream scientists might have something against looking into miracles because of world view they hold themselves? I've spoken to and heard of the things people on the other side say and it not pretty. I've been suggested to watch a 2 hour long video explaining how dark matter works with the warning of the first half an hour being full of insults towards Christians.

I'm sorry but you give scientists too much credit. I'd be suspicious.

I actually joined the Secular Alliance at my college campus. I joined an atheist site. And I can tell you that there's clearly some kind of hate/repulsiveness... prejudicism towards Christians coming from the secular, scientific community, and atheists. This is my over-all impression of these communities. I'm not saying everyone is strongly like this but it seems to be a trend among these groups. So, I'm not surprised people comment on how angry atheists are... or just (how practically) justly repulsed some Christians are.

I think our behavior and approach is fundamentally important in the seeking of any truth. Consider the idea of evidence. Evidence has and may always have an interpretation part to it. For example, if I were to show a secular geologist a certain canyon and asked him to tell me the age of the layers on the canyon. Surely, the secular geologist would tell me millions of years. Why? Its because of his interpretation of the evidence. Then I'd turn around and tell him this was made in a catastrophic event that happened in a matter of months. So, you see interpretation matters. This is an art, not a science. It goes without question that this art should be founded in a will to seek objective truth.

Now, I'm not saying someone with a terrible behavior can't speak some truths. However, I am saying... it would be prudent to take an angry prejudice person's words with a tad more caution. Does that make sense?

Now as for miracles. I had one in my life. I asked the Christian God for proof. He gave it to me. Do note, however, I accepted God in Faith first so I could have a connection with God and then asked for the miracle. Its one the main reason I'm not an atheist today but instead a devout Christian. I'm sure you've heard of such miracles... as a man of your age. Why don't you believe in what has been seen? But, instead believe in theories... ideas... guesses ... imaginations that are in the minds of certain people?

 

[Kerry]

You assume scientists would... ever think maybe they wouldn't because of an agenda? Its a serious question. Have you ever considered maybe most main stream scientists might have something against looking into miracles because of world view they hold themselves? I've spoken to and heard of the things people on the other side say and it not pretty. I've been suggested to watch a 2 hour long video explaining how dark matter works with the warning of the first half an hour being full of insults towards Christians.

I'm sorry but you give scientists too much credit. I'd be suspicious.

I actually joined the Secular Alliance at my college campus. I joined an atheist site. And I can tell you that there's clearly some kind of hate/repulsiveness... prejudicism towards Christians coming from the secular, scientific community, and atheists. This is my over-all impression of these communities. I'm not saying everyone is strongly like this but it seems to be a trend among these groups. So, I'm not surprised people comment on how angry atheists are... or just (how practically) justly repulsed some Christians are.

I think our behavior and approach is fundamentally important in the seeking of any truth. Consider the idea of evidence. Evidence has and may always have an interpretation part to it. For example, if I were to show a secular geologist a certain canyon and asked him to tell me the age of the layers on the canyon. Surely, the secular geologist would tell me millions of years. Why? Its because of his interpretation of the evidence. Then I'd turn around and tell him this was made in a catastrophic event that happened in a matter of months. So, you see interpretation matters. This is an art, not a science. It goes without question that this art should be founded in a will to seek objective truth.

Now, I'm not saying someone with a terrible behavior can't speak some truths. However, I am saying... it would be prudent to take an angry prejudice person's words with a tad more caution. Does that make sense?

Now as for miracles. I had one in my life. I asked the Christian God for proof. He gave it to me. Do note, however, I accepted God in Faith first so I could have a connection with God and then asked for the miracle. Its one the main reason I'm not an atheist today but instead a devout Christian. I'm sure you've heard of such miracles... as a man of your age. Why don't you believe in what has been seen? But, instead believe in theories... ideas... guesses ... imaginations that are in the minds of certain people?

Jesus said if the world hates you, its not you they hate, but rather it is Me.

I know people like Starcrash cannot see that evidence or any other evidence that is proposed. Only the Holy Spirit can break these chains. We present the word as best we can and if is not accepted. Jesus said to shake the dust of your feet and move on. Thats my recommendation also. Not everyone will accept or believe. If we are truly caring, we would bring them up in fervent prayer, as that avails much. God bless you.

 

[Starcrash]

You assume scientists would... ever think maybe they wouldn't because of an agenda? Its a serious question. Have you ever considered maybe most main stream scientists might have something against looking into miracles because of world view they hold themselves?

Scientists seek the truth, and so they control for everything possible -- including bias. That doesn't mean that bias doesn't sway popular scientific consensus (such as it did against continental drift and the idea of man's evolutionary descendants coming from Africa), but there is an effort to remove it as much as possible. There is no anti-Christian bias, or you'd see scientists attempting to prove witchcraft and the New Age to be true, but the real bias is against supernatural events of any sort because they are outside of science... you can't link cause and effect if you can't measure the cause in any way.

Christian "scientists" have a clear motive and bias, and it always seems to be dismissed by the same people who accuse non-Christian scientists of the same. It's a double-standard. It doesn't surprise us that Christians always believe that they're proving the bible true, any more than Muslim scientists prove the truth of the Qur'an and Mormon scientists prove the truth of the Book of Mormon. But these "proofs" don't hold up without presuppositions -- again, we can't link cause and effect when the cause is unmeasurable.

And you don't understand this. You claim that you "asked the Christian God for proof" and "He gave it to [you]", and yet you don't offer it to me even though you clearly want to prove God to me. And so does God, supposedly, but He offers nothing either. Do you know that correlation doesn't prove causation? If you ask God for something, and you get it, that doesn't prove that God gave it to you. Just because one event follows another, that doesn't mean that the first event caused the other. Is that your view of science? No wonder you don't value it highly.

 

[Starcrash]

Jesus said if the world hates you, its not you they hate, but rather it is Me.

I know people like Starcrash cannot see that evidence or any other evidence that is proposed. Only the Holy Spirit can break these chains. We present the word as best we can and if is not accepted. Jesus said to shake the dust of your feet and move on. Thats my recommendation also. Not everyone will accept or believe. If we are truly caring, we would bring them up in fervent prayer, as that avails much. God bless you.

It is not that I don't "see that evidence", but rather that I find the evidence to be weak. Nor did I claim to "hate him" (and obviously I don't hate God... for the umpteenth time, hating God requires believing in God, and I don't hate God any more than you hate Allah, Zeus, Vishnu, etc.).

I'm not against "any... evidence that is proposed" any more than you are against any evidence that is proposed, but rather I'm not swayed by yours any more than you are swayed by ours. Can you not empathize with us even when we're in the same shoes? We're 67 pages in to this thread filled with atheist arguments, and you've still got these prejudices against atheists that won't allow you to make any connections to us -- you still see us as different in every way, despite the fact that our brains are built the same way as yours. Stop setting up these irrational double-standards that separate "us" from "them", or you'll never be able to understand us in the way that we understand you.

 

[Starcrash]

I got up from my seat and felt really let down by God..but then I realized my eyes no longer burned. I swalloed to test my sore throat and it felt fine. In my disbelief, I walked from one end of campus to the other to see if I felt weak or if my muscles would start to ache as they had before--and I felt fine.

I was healed.

Like I told Calmador, correlation doesn't prove causation. Just because one event follows another, that doesn't prove that one caused the other... especially in a case of relief from pain. Pain is literally all in your head; no matter what the stimulus is that triggers it, it merely sends signals to your brain which responds in telling you that you're in pain so that you'll remove the damaging stimulus. But because it's in your head, pain relief is often as easy as wishing it away.

You're interpreting the events from a Christian point-of-view. If you had prayed to Zeus and then felt better, you'd be thanking Zeus, having no idea that your prayer didn't cause you to feel better. You still can't link cause and effect except by assumption.

 

[Starcrash]

Except for one thing: the placebo effect.

There's still nothing there to study, because the placebo effect is already well-known and is controlled for in experiments... even the "faith" part isn't necessary for the healing via placebo effect.

 

[RowdyRoddy]

I was once healed. It was in high school and during finals. I had a fever, muscles ached and I was weak. I also had a very sore throat, my eyes burned and I had a metallic taste in my mouth. I found a quiet place to pray and asked God to heal me. Back then I was very spiritual and had great faith.

After the prayer I was still as sick as before but now I was angry with God for not healing me. As best I can recall, I prayed like this:



I got up from my seat and felt really let down by God..but then I realized my eyes no longer burned. I swalloed to test my sore throat and it felt fine. In my disbelief, I walked from one end of campus to the other to see if I felt weak or if my muscles would start to ache as they had before--and I felt fine.

I was healed.

Yeah, but that same day 20,000 people died from cancer and around
another 20,000 children died of starvation. Many of these people were
probably praying and had friends and family praying as well.

For every one person that's "healed" many more aren't.

That's what the atheist argument would be, anyway.

 

[Simona25]

Absolutely loved the Rap. Thanks for sharing. Passing it on.

But Simona, he didn't get his leg back.

What is more miraculous: a leg growing back or a man physically incomplete but with an attitude that shows he´s a man and a half?

 

[Simona25]

Yes, it's a miracle in one sense (wonderful or unusual and being interpreted as "from God)... but that's not the definition being used by those who challenge the claim, in which only a supernatural explanation can be given.

My friend, I wanted to show you real miracles but it seems to me that everybody here is searching for sensationalism...I´m dissapointed. We´re missing the point of life if we don´t learn to see, if we don´t have eyes to see.

 

[Cycel]

What is more miraculous: a leg growing back or a man physically incomplete but with an attitude that shows he´s a man and a half?

What's more miraculous? A leg growing back, without question. There might be no God, yet a person could still have a terrific attitude toward life. Properly defined a miracle must, as Starcrash says, be the result of a supernatural intervention.

 

[Cycel]

The people who says that there is no God,start remembering him in times of pain and troubles.

In his book, The Comfortable Pew, Berton spoke of the misconception that there were no atheists in the foxholes. He had atheist friends who experienced combat and knew better. In my own experience I suffered a very painful ruptured appendix at age twenty-five and nearly died. I spent a week in hospital followed by two weeks at home convalescing. It was following that two weeks at home that it suddenly occurred to me I had not thought of God once during that whole experience. So much for pain and suffering or the threat of death bringing people closer to God. Sorry, but it just isn't so.

Actually God is in their hearts but they try to deceive themselves.

What I think is really happening here is that you believe so thoroughly in God you just can't imagine anyone not, so you tell yourself that atheists really do know God exists, but are blocking it out. Someone is deceiving themselves, but it is not us atheists.

 

[danschance]

Cycel,

I have heard many times, atheists explain why Christians believe and none were even close. I am sure you heard Christians attempt to explain how atheists feel/believe and the are also far off the mark. I say, let's hear each other out and understand each other based on their words and not our prejudice.

 

[Cycel]

Cycel,

I have heard many times, atheists explain why Christians believe and none were even close. I am sure you heard Christians attempt to explain how atheists feel/believe and the are also far off the mark. I say, let's hear each other out and understand each other based on their words and not our prejudice.

Well, yes, I'd agree with that, but in my post – the one I think you are commenting on – I was countering the assumption that atheists really do believe in God, but are deceiving themselves into thinking we do not believe. Now if my assumption is off the mark I'd be happy for Fozi to come back and give me a different explanation.

Now here's the difference between myself and quite a number of Believers I've chatted with over the years: I will believe Fozi's explanation of why he thinks what he does. On the other hand, when I tell a good many Believers that I really don't believe in God they repeat, "Yes you do. You just don't know it."

It's very frustrating.

Fozi may have a theological explanation for why he is making the assumption that he is, and he perhaps hinted as much. Let me ask you this question. Do you think it is difficult for some Christians to get their heads around the fact that some people really do not believe in God? A few Christians do argue, after all, that there really is no such thing as an atheist.

My father used to say that there really was no such thing as a homosexual. They were just pretending, he said, or they were going through a phase. Homosexuality was something he just couldn't get his head around and I suspect many Christians are like that in regard atheists. What do you think?