ATONEMENT

michael56 · Mar 9, 2015

You've already been given scriptures that plainly show a person is declared not guilty by faith in Christ. If you understood the new covenant, you would understand the scriptures put before you. If you are declared righteous in God's sight from first to last. by faith in Christ, apart from the law, you have been declared not guilty by faith. From first to last is the whole of your Christian life.
I have not got my beliefs from any man, or church. I was raised in a Pentecostal church. They stressed how well a person must live their life, but they never forthrightly preached the grace of the bible. God was gracious to me, he opened my eyes, a few years after I had left church, crushed, believing I could not be good enough for him.
Most who go to church live under what I can only term a 'hybrid'' covenant. They want to mix a bit of law with a bit of faith, a diluted covenant you could say. The result is the same as if you dilute a drink of whiskey with water, it is far less potent.

I would sincerely suggest you cease reading individuals theories, and get on your knees, and ask in sincerity from the heart God show you the truth of the Gospel message by the working of the Holy Spirit. Admit in yourself you can know nothing, or learn anything of yourself and totally rely on the Holy Spirit for understanding spiritual truth as you read the bible. You won't know everything, for even the Apostle Paul said he only knew in part, but God responds to requests made in sincerity from the heart, and he will show you the truth of grace, then you will be free, at the moment you are not

Cassian · Mar 9, 2015

michael56 said:

Cassian said:

You've already been given scriptures that plainly show a person is declared not guilty by faith in Christ. If you understood the new covenant, you would understand the scriptures put before you. If you are declared righteous in God's sight from first to last. by faith in Christ, apart from the law, you have been declared not guilty by faith. From first to last is the whole of your Christian life.
I have not got my beliefs from any man, or church. I was raised in a Pentecostal church. They stressed how well a person must live their life, but they never forthrightly preached the grace of the bible. God was gracious to me, he opened my eyes, a few years after I had left church, crushed, believing I could not be good enough for him.
Most who go to church live under what I can only term a 'hybrid'' covenant. They want to mix a bit of law with a bit of faith, a diluted covenant you could say. The result is the same as if you dilute a drink of whiskey with water, it is far less potent.

I would sincerely suggest you cease reading individuals theories, and get on your knees, and ask in sincerity from the heart God show you the truth of the Gospel message by the working of the Holy Spirit. Admit in yourself you can know nothing, or learn anything of yourself and totally rely on the Holy Spirit for understanding spiritual truth as you read the bible. You won't know everything, for even the Apostle Paul said he only knew in part, but God responds to requests made in sincerity from the heart, and he will show you the truth of grace, then you will be free, at the moment you are not

So, in other words you do not understand your own doctrines enough to explain them. There is nothing in the text that says Christ declared anyone "not guilty" in perpetuity simply on the basis of faith. In scripture that does not even get one into the covenant. Which is why the faith alone mantra is false as well as the "satisfaction" theory.

michael56 · Mar 9, 2015

Cassian said:

michael56 said:

So in other words, you don't understand the new covenant the Christian is under. Therefore you just make abstract statements rather than respond to the scripture placed before you. Not a worthwhile conversation to be involved with.

Jesus said:

Ye must be born again. I sincerely hope one day you realise what he meant, it is at the core of the new covenant

Skinski7 · Mar 9, 2015

michael56 said:

Cassian said:

Here is the New Covenant...

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised

Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Notice that the New Covenant does not include automatic forgiveness for "future sins" but rather automatic condemnation and a fearful expectation of judgement for those who would willfully sin after having been sanctified by the blood.

There it is right there, clear as day, in the Bible.

That alone utterly refutes Penal Substitution and due to that is the reason why Penal supporters have to twist that passage and pretend it says something other than what is plainly states.

If we sin willfully after having received a knowledge of the truth, having counted the blood by which we were sanctified then we can only have a fearful expectation of judgment.

Most people don't like the sound of that and that is why they reject it. They don't want a "repentance not to be repented of" (2Cor 7:10), they prefer a mere "confession of sinfulness" whereby they can continue sinning and remain pardoned. What a mockery of God's mercy.

To be born again means to be in a state where we truly love our neighbour and no-one who truly loves engages in wickedness, not even sometimes.

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

The new birth entails HEART PURITY not ongoing wickedness. It is those who defend ongoing wickedness that must twist the Bible in order to preach a sin cloak. Penal Substitution is the perfect sin cloak because it is "no longer about me and what I do," it is "just about Jesus and what He did."

What an abomination.

Skinski7 · Mar 9, 2015

The only reason people believe in Penal Substitution is simply that they "want to."

The doctrine is complete foolishness and does not stand up in the slightest to examination. Yet in spite of that wicked people will still do this...

Joh 9:26 Then said they to him again, What did he to thee? how opened he thine eyes?
Joh 9:27 He answered them, I have told you already, and ye did not hear: wherefore would ye hear it again? will ye also be his disciples?
Joh 9:28 Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses' disciples.
Joh 9:29 We know that God spake unto Moses: as for this fellow, we know not from whence he is.
...
Joh 9:34 They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.
...
Joh 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
Joh 9:40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Mat_7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Strait - stenos
Probably from the base of G2476; narrow (from obstacles standing close about): - strait.

michael56 · Mar 9, 2015

This is the new covenant:

Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. [SUP]12 [/SUP]But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, [SUP]13 [/SUP]and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.[SUP]15 [/SUP]The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
[SUP]16 [/SUP]“This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[SUP][b][/SUP]

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”[SUP][c][/SUP]

[SUP]18 [/SUP]And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary. Heb 10:11-18

Under the old covenant sacrifices for sin could be made for transgression, but under the new covenant these are not necessary, for a persons sins and lawless deeds will be remembered no more. This alone proves Christ died for all a persons sins at Calvary.
Concerning Heb 10:26.

'If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left'

Firstly, note it refers to a person who knows the truth. If a person does not recognise Jesus died for all their sins, past, present and future they would not know the truth, therefore that verse could not be quoted to them.
Are you perfect in your flesh? If you are not, you commit sin, therefore I think you should view that verse bearing that in mind.
For myself, I have never met any Christian who believed Jesus died for all their sins, past, present and future who has used that knowledge to then deliberately keep on sinning in areas they have either been delivered from sin, or have never been afflicted by such sins. Grace is the empowerment to see much victory over sin.
However, sadly, I have met many who in effect believe they have to be good enough for God as they believe Jesus only died to wipe the slate clean at the point of conversion. They hardly seem to move forward in their Christian lives and are often enchained by much. Verse 26 couldn't apply to them could it.

michael56 · Mar 9, 2015

Skinski7 said:

No, it is because that is what the bible teaches. But you seem to find it hard to go beyond some of the literal letter. The Pharisees of Jesus day were the same.
''Jesus said. In regard to sin because men do not believe in me''

Why did he not say

In regard to sin transgression of the law?

I will keep repeating to you, if the Christian has a righteousness apart from the law, this has to mean Jesus died for all their sins at Calvary, if he did not, the Christian must live under the law, nothing else is possible. I cannot fathom how anyone could not see this obvious truth

Skinski7 · Mar 9, 2015

Michael,

You just do what plenty of others do. You just reject what the Bible actually states and then use rhetoric and conjecture to imply something else. Heb 10:26 means exactly what it says, there is no sacrifice for ongoing willful sin but only a certain expectation of judgment and the context is in regards to those whom have been sanctified by the blood.

You obviously just don't like it and therefore reject what that passage literally says. Unsubstantiated rhetoric will never cancel the truth.

Likewise...

You just keep repeating the same old fallacy and ignore that the righteousness apart from the law is a righteousness by faith which works by love.

If we love we are not under the law. It is so simple. Those whom love their neighbour with a pure heart do not work ill against their neighbour. There is no need for "thou shalt not."

Jesus died so that we could approach God in repentance (forsaking wickedness) and faith (that works by love) and receive a cleansing from our past sins. We are reconciled to God on the basis of having been cleansed of our past sins and having a present pure heart before God. It is so simple.

You have to reject the simplicity and spout silly rhetoric about "having to live under the law." You don't know what you are talking about and are self blinded in your emotional attachment to the religion of men.

Jesus taught purity of heart as being essential. Do you? I doubt it.

If you do then what is the nonsense of heart purity producing wickedness which needs ongoing forgiveness? It is stupid theology hence the clear warnings in the Bible about forsaking wickedness once and for all.

Skinski7 · Mar 9, 2015

The elephant in the room of all those who uphold Penal Substitution is they they NEVER contend for heart purity in salvation.

If they were to contend for heart purity in salvation then they would no longer need to argue in favour of ongoing wickedness in justification.

The very first lie of Satan was that "ye shall not surely die" as it pertains to rebelling against God. Modern religion posing as Christianity preaches that very same lie.

Cassian · Mar 9, 2015

michael56 said:

No, it is because that is what the bible teaches. Can you prove that the Bible actually teaches it?
Where is your evidence. The gospel was given 2000 years ago. Can you find anywhere in the history of Christianity that the Church ever believed such a doctrine?

Because you don't even understand what it actually means. Christ atoned for all sin. He did not atone just for the sin of a believer. Atonement does not mean forgiveness.
The point the text is making is that Christ saved all mankind from death and sin. All men have been imputed that righteousness. Which simply means that man and the world has been placed back into a correct relationship.

If a person desires to be personally reconciled to God, faith is required. That is called justification by faith. It requires that one actually believe that Christ has saved us from death and sin. That believe does not declare you not guilty. It does not even save anyone. It is just one of the requirements to enter into a relationship with Christ. The next requirement is repentance and asking forgiveness for one's past sins. Christ does not forgive sins you have not yet committed. That requires your confession of those sins. Baptism actually enters one into the covenant with Christ. Again, does not save us, but is required. One cannot be saved outside of Christ.

This five second notion of instant eternal life permanently at a one-time mental ascent of faith is mythology, definitely not scripture.

The_highwayman · Mar 9, 2015

Cassian said:

michael56 said:

Either refute the facts with the Bible or I will be sure you are banned...

Willie-T · Mar 9, 2015

The_highwayman said:

The_highwayman · Mar 9, 2015

Cassian said:

Sohia,

Because you are so aligned with Calvinism and also Original Sin theory, you bypass the real work of Christ in reversing the fall itself. One cannot even speak of hell or heaven unless Christ first redeems this world from death. Christ did in fact save the world and mankind from death and sin. Which is why He is the Savior of the world. Which is also why such a notion of a limited atonement is an impossibility given who Christ is and what He accomplished by His Incarnation and resurrection.

The actual theology of Calvinism actually denies Christ, His Incarnation and His resurrection by claiming it is limited therefore scripture states would make everything null and void.

You should do a study of the atonement outside of Calvinism, you might learn something of what scripture actually teaches. The Gift of salvation, that is, the work Christ did through His Incarnation, death and resurrection is a gift, an outright gift given to every human being including the world itself.
However, the offer of eternal life to those that believe and the ability to have that relationship in this life is due to His High Priestly function, in that He can forgive the sins we repent of, and confess. Christ did not forgive sins on the Cross or by some unilateral action just because He atoned for the sin of the world. That happens to be the meaning of Limited Atonement, which is impossible and scripture never teaches it. It is a direct denial of the Incarnation itself which is how Christ reconciled the world to God.

Study what atonement means and what forgiveness means. They are not the same.

Prove your opinions with scripture or be gone, you have now warned twice...not once have you provided scripture, do it again and I will see you are banned...

The_highwayman · Mar 9, 2015

Willie-T said:

The_highwayman said:

Love hurts willie, especially when someone has never once used the word to explain their opinion, and their opinion is blatant against the word

michael56 · Mar 9, 2015

Skinski7 said:

The Christian is not under the law because they have been born again of the Holy Spirit. It is a two part covenant, not one part. As is obvious from scripture:

This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[SUP][b][/SUP]

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”[SUP][c][/SUP]

[SUP]18 [/SUP]And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary. Heb 10:11-18

You are unable to refute this, or to respond to the fact if the Christian is not under a law of righteousness before God Christ must have died for all their sins at Calvary. The simple truth is too much for those who in their hearts want a righteousness of their own before God. It is not theirs to have

michael56 · Mar 9, 2015

Cassian said:

michael56 said:

No, it is because that is what the bible teaches. Can you prove that the Bible actually teaches it?
Where is your evidence. The gospel was given 2000 years ago. Can you find anywhere in the history of Christianity that the Church ever believed such a doctrine?

Because you don't even understand what it actually means. Christ atoned for all sin. He did not atone just for the sin of a believer. Atonement does not mean forgiveness.
The point the text is making is that Christ saved all mankind from death and sin. All men have been imputed that righteousness. Which simply means that man and the world has been placed back into a correct relationship.

If a person desires to be personally reconciled to God, faith is required. That is called justification by faith. It requires that one actually believe that Christ has saved us from death and sin. That believe does not declare you not guilty. It does not even save anyone. It is just one of the requirements to enter into a relationship with Christ. The next requirement is repentance and asking forgiveness for one's past sins. Christ does not forgive sins you have not yet committed. That requires your confession of those sins. Baptism actually enters one into the covenant with Christ. Again, does not save us, but is required. One cannot be saved outside of Christ.

This five second notion of instant eternal life permanently at a one-time mental ascent of faith is mythology, definitely not scripture.

As has been pointed out to you, you are unable to produce scripture to back up your errant statements, therefore, further discussion is pointless

michael56 · Mar 9, 2015

Skinski7 said:

Do you love your neighbour?

Or are you led of the flesh to self exhortation?

You are telling us you have a pure heart and love faultlessly so you obey all of Christ's commandments aren't you?

Cassian · Mar 9, 2015

The_highwayman said:

Cassian said:

The ball is in your park. Can you cite any historical record that the interpretation you are presenting has ever been historically believed by the Church. So far, all you have is your opinion, even though I have already presented historical facts that scripture has never had the meaning you are espousing except by a man, Anselm in the 11th century. Man has created a lot of new doctrines over the last 500 years, all from scripture. So, to say, use scripture, even the Mormons can do that.

As to refuting your expose, I have already done so and so has Skinsky, quite well, I might add.

The_highwayman · Mar 9, 2015

Cassian said:

The_highwayman said:

The ball is in your park. Can you cite any historical record that the interpretation you are presenting has ever been historically believed by the Church. So far, all you have is your opinion, even though I have already presented historical facts that scripture has never had the meaning you are espousing except by a man, Anselm in the 11th century. Man has created a lot of new doctrines over the last 500 years, all from scripture. So, to say, use scripture, even the Mormons can do that.

As to refuting your expose, I have already done so and so has Skinsky, quite well, I might add.

Historical facts are not the Bible...

Cassian · Mar 9, 2015

The_highwayman said:

Christians, all Christians should understand the explanations of scripture. There is ONLY ONE Gospel. However for those who need scripture to support Christ's atonement, His Incarnation and resurrection, here they are from the beginning. Gen 3:19 is the condemnation of death to all men. Paul supports this in Rom 5:18, vs 15 it is a gift, a gift to all men. Rom 5:6-10 Christ because of His love, mercy and grace, died for sinners. (all men again) unless you can posit that some men are not sinners.

Paul repeats the equation in I Cor 15:12-22. He reinforces that when He says Christ will raise all the dead to immortality, and incorruptibility, I Cor 15:52-54. Just an add on, I Cor 15:56 says that the sting of death is sin. In other words we sin easily because of our mortal nature.

Christ atonement extends to the world as well. When Adam was condemned to death, the created order also became subject to decay, corruption and death. Thus Christ needed to save the world as well. II Cor 5:18-19, Col 1:20, Rom 3:24 all state that Christ was reconciling the world to God. This is supported by John 6:39, Acts 24:15, Rev 20:13 where it states all men will be raised.
In short, Christ died for all men, Heb 2:9. He did this by becoming Incarnate, took on our mortal human nature. He atoned for the sin of the world, I John 2:2. Christ is the Savior of the world, John 4:42.
One can even shorten it more, if one actually understands what Christ actually accomplished for us. He became the sacrifice for sin, all sin , and granted life to all men and the world. Salvation, came to all men. Titus 2:11, He gives Light to all men, John 1:9

The Incarnation has been a hallmark of Christianity from the very beginning. It survived three false teachings in the 4th and 5th centuries.

If you need the history behind the false teachings of Original Sin and the Satisfaction theory they can be checked out as well. But the satisfaction theory assumes the false teaching of Original Sin first mentioned by Augustine. He imported some false teachings from his earlier influences of the Manicheans and Gnostics. He was also a student of Neo-Platonism. He incorporated some of these false ideas into Christianity but they were never part of the Church's belief. Even the RCC did not accept Anselm's theory completely. Thomas Aquinas softened it, as did Francis of Assissi It was not until the Reformation that the two leading reformers, Luther and Calvin came along, both Augustinians, and built these false teachings into their respective theories of salvation. Calvin added the pen/sub to the Satisfaction theory. Within Protestantism these theories are so prevalent an pervasive that they are assumed to be what scripture has always meant. Nothing could be further from the Truth.

Those are scriptural facts and historical facts.

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