ATONEMENT

[crossnote]

then clearly you either really don't understand either, or you don't understand Christus Victor.

Why can't the atonement incorporate both...Christus Victor and Penal substitution as well have some elements of the Moral Influence etc? Why confine it to one sliver?

 

[oldhermit]

I am not confused at all. In Romans 7:7-11 Paul gave an example of why he had to die to a law of righteousness. The example he gave was ''Thou shalt not covet'' One of the Ten Commandments. So the penalty of sin has been paid for all the law, not just some of it

The ten commandments are nothing more than the embodiment of eternal principles that are rooted in the reality of God and man's relationship to God. The New testament as well as the Old Testament are built on these generalized principles which still stand as the foundation of man's relationship to God and man's relationship to man. Everything else within the Law of Moses were simply regulations and ordinances that instructed ISRAEL in how THEY were to honor these eternal principles.

 

[Cassian]

How is this false according to the bible?

The power of sin is the law(1Cor15:6) Or to put it exactly. The power of sin is the penalty attached to the law if you break it.

If I said to you. ''If you think of a pink rabbit God will condemn you to hell, what is the first thought that will come into your head if you believe me? But as you know there is no such penalty in place for thinking of such a creature you won't think about it will you.

The Christian has a righteousness before God APART FROM THE LAW. You can only be guilty of sin unto condemnation through a righteousness of obedience to the law, for sin is the transgression of the law(1John 3:4) Therefore, if you have a righteousness apart from the law before God, Jesus died for all your sins at Calvary, past, present and future.

People say that gives the Christian a license to sin. It would if the new covenant only hinged on one core fact, but it doesn't:

This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[SUP][b][/SUP][SUP]17 [/SUP]Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”[SUP][c][/SUP]

[SUP]18 [/SUP]And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary Heb 10:16-18

Jesus said to Nicodemus:

Ye MUST be born again. It is not an option, it is pivotal. By the law being placed on your heart and written on your mind at the point of conversion, you in your heart want to obey God. Because that has happened, and only because that has happened, your sins and lawless deeds will be remembered no more.
If you in your heart want to obey God you cannot at the same time wilfully commit sin without conscience, such a thing is not possible.

By Jesus paying the price of your sin at Calvary, he removed the true power of sin from your life(the penalty of sin)
Therefore, the born again Christians heartfelt desire to obey can now come to fruition, for what opposes obedience(sin) has been dealt a crushing blow by having its true power robbed from the Christians life. Hence Paul states:

Do we then nullify the law by this faith(a righteousness of faith in Christ not obedience to the law) Not at all! Rather we uphold the law Rom 3:31

The power of sin is the law(1Cor15:6) Or to put it exactly. The power of sin is the penalty attached to the law if you break it.

not exactly. It is because of the law that we know what is sin. The penalty for sin has never been removed. It is still waiting for those who live in sin.

The Christian has a righteousness before God APART FROM THE LAW. You can only be guilty of sin unto condemnation through a righteousness of obedience to the law, for sin is the transgression of the law(1John 3:4) Therefore, if you have a righteousness apart from the law before God, Jesus died for all your sins at Calvary, past, present and future.

Yes, every single human being has that righteousness. Christ atoned for the sin of the world. There is no distinction at Calvary. Sin is sin and Christ atoned for it. That is the error that keeps getting repeated in this thread, especially the "satisfaction theory, and pen/sub theory".
The power of sin has not been removed. It can still convict anyone including any believer. This concept that one is forgiven by virture of belief is not found in scripture. And the idea that one is actually declared "not guilty" because of faith is another travesty of understanding. Christ is not interested in declaring a person not guilty and at the same time that person makes no change. The whole purpose of our relationship is to change from our sinful ways to be like Christ. This is not a five second event in the life of a believer. The purpose of the Church and the sacraments is to assist in our healing. The Church itself is a sacrament. Sin is actually a test of one's faith. Which is why so many believers fall away. Paul even states that any sin is a loss of faith. Repentance and confession are two most common acts of any believer if he desires to remain IN Christ.

 

[Cassian]

Why can't the atonement incorporate both...Christus Victor and Penal substitution as well have some elements of the Moral Influence etc? Why confine it to one sliver?

the Pen/sub theory comes out of Calvinism. Part of that system is "limited atonement". Per scripture that could not even be a possibility which is why it cannot be incorporated together.

Secondly, it also incorporates the false, Anselmian Satisfaction theory. The proclamation of "not guilt" of all ones sins, past, present, and future based on Justification of faith. The Theory itself is all about the concept of Roman/English law whereby in Christianity God was offended and an appeasement ,or an act of justice must be performed to avenge that wrong against God. Christ becomes the substitution for God's wrath against his justice. The theory makes God the problem, not man. It is God that changes, not man. Hardly an idea that one should weave into atonement.

 

[The_highwayman]

Friend I have not idea what Bible you read, but you are spreading the doctrine of devils, and have no understanding of the Word of God....you are professing yourself to be wise, but have become a fool, you are wind and clouds without rain...

The power of sin has not been removed.

Romans 8.2 says we have been freed for the law of sin and death...

[SUP]2[/SUP]For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death

Colossians 1.12-14 says:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

[SUP]14 [/SUP]In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

1 Cor 15.55-57


[SUP]55 [/SUP]O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
[SUP]56 [/SUP]The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
[SUP]57 [/SUP]But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 6.5-7 says:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For he that is dead is freed from sin.

It can still convict anyone including any believer

SIN does not convict anyone...The Bible says the comforter reproves[convicts] the world of Sin and we know the comforter to be the Holy Spirit...Furthermore SIN doe snot convict a beleiver nor does the Holy SPirit, the HS convicts a believer of not being righteous....

John 16.7-14
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Of sin, because they believe not on me;

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

This concept that one is forgiven by virtue of belief is not found in scripture.Christ is not interested in declaring a person not guilty and at the same time that person makes no change.

Oh really!?!?

My Bible tells me in ROmans 10.9-10 that I am forgiven if i believe:


[SUP]9 [/SUP]That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

And the idea that one is actually declared "not guilty" because of faith is another travesty of understanding

All of Romans 4 and 5 refutes and defeats your doctrine of devils clearly and soundly....

Christ is not interested in declaring a person not guilty and at the same time that person makes no change

Romans 3.24-26 refutes you again...


[SUP]24 [/SUP]Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
[SUP]26 [/SUP]To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


You cannot attain Christ by any of your good works....


I Cor 5.17-21 & Eph 2.8-9... again you are refuted...

Change happens through faith, not by works....


[SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
[SUP]19 [/SUP]To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


Eph 2.8-9:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The whole purpose of our relationship is to change from our sinful ways to be like Christ. This is not a five second event in the life of a believer. The purpose of the Church and the sacraments is to assist in our healing. The Church itself is a sacrament. Sin is actually a test of one's faith. Which is why so many believers fall away. Paul even states that any sin is a loss of faith. Repentance and confession are two most common acts of any believer if he desires to remain IN Christ

You are in such error here I cannot go on....You are destroyed for your complete lack of knowledge...SIN is not a test of ones faith....Are you saying Jesus sinned here? His faith was tested more than anyone? Believers fall away because of false teachers like you that attempt to keep them striving for a standard of being Christ like they will never or are told in the Bible to attain...you are a modern day pharisee! you smugly and arrogantly preach false doctrine and are taking many to hell with you...

I have cut you to the core with the sword of the Spirit, you need to seriously get with someone to help you friend, you state nothing that is Biblical or even in the Bible...all you vomit out are suppositions and opinions and nothing, not a thing you posted is even in the Bible....

Satan has you and is sifting you as wheat friend, but I will pray that your faith not fail you and when you are converted you will strengthen the brethren....

 

[The_highwayman]

Satan's first exaltation of himself was not the result of a threat from God (thus stirring fear)but a deliberate attempt at usurping God's position. Fallen man has this same nature and revolts at what is commanded by God as it is his nature now also.

100% spot on here...many state Satan's sin was pride...the iniquity found in Satan was his rebellion towards God...Pride was the lie that rebellion activated...

 

[michael56]

Why are you quoting Kathryn Khulman?

I believe Kathryn Khulman was mightily used of God, once she learned to bow the knee and give God what he wanted from her life. But I hope to leave it there, and concentrate of the implications of the penalty for sin.

 

[michael56]

The ten commandments are nothing more than the embodiment of eternal principles that are rooted in the reality of God and man's relationship to God. The New testament as well as the Old Testament are built on these generalized principles which still stand as the foundation of man's relationship to God and man's relationship to man. Everything else within the Law of Moses were simply regulations and ordinances that instructed ISRAEL in how THEY were to honor these eternal principles.

So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For when we were in the realm of the flesh,[SUP][a][/SUP] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. [SUP]6 [/SUP]But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. Rom 7:4-6

Paul is stressing in the above the Christian has to die to a law of righteousness. If you die to a law of righteousness, the penalty of sin has been removed from your life. This must be the case, for if you are not under a law of righteousness before God you cannot be made unrighteous for your imperfections concerning those laws can you? Such a thing is not possible. If you cannot be made unrighteous for your imperfections concerning the law, the penalty for breaking it must have been removed from you.

Paul then goes on to give an example of why he had to die to a law of righteousness, the example he gives is ''Thou shalt not covet'' which is one of the Ten Commandments. Therefore the penalty of sin has been removed from all the law, including the Ten Commandments for the Christian

 

[michael56]

not exactly. It is because of the law that we know what is sin. The penalty for sin has never been removed. It is still waiting for those who live in sin.
. .

As sin is transgression of the law(1jOHN 3:4) you must therefore depend/rely on observing the law to attain Heaven. Paul states:

For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, [SUP]15 [/SUP]because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression Rom 4:14&15

If you depend on obeying the law faith can mean nothing to you, therefore you are cut off from grace, for grace comes through faith

 

[Cassian]

The Highwayman,

Your whole explanation is based on faulty man made theories. What do you think the penalty of sin is?
How does Rom 8:2 eliminate hell, which is the penalty for sin?
Much of your explanation is that believers will not suffer the penalty of sin, which is true, but that does not remove the penalty of sin.
Several of your citations are not even referencing believers but mankind. Which is obvious you are espousing a view of limited atonment.

SIN does not convict anyone...The Bible says the comforter reproves[convicts] the world of Sin and we know the comforter to be the Holy Spirit...Furthermore SIN doe snot convict a beleiver nor does the Holy SPirit, the HS convicts a believer of not being righteous....

Sin is the only problem man has in this life. Sin, any sin is separation from God. If we do not either repent or confess our sins, they can convict one, namely hell. One of the functions of the Holy Spirit is to call all men to repentance and He does this by convicting them of their sin thus their need for Him and forgiveness.

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

that text isolated says what you want it to say. However, belief, faith must be active. A simple faith, or faith alone is hell. If our faith has no works it is a dead faith, and one does not inherit eternal life.

All of Romans 4 and 5 refutes and defeats your doctrine of devils clearly and soundly....

where in either of these chapters does it ever say that justification by faith means to be declared "not guilty" of all sins in perpetuity? The only place that happens is in Anselm's theory of atonement.

My statement...
Christ is not interested in declaring a person not guilty and at the same time that person makes no change
Your response.....
Romans 3.24-26 refutes you again...

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Vs 24 applies to every human being. However the purpose of the Atonement, the sacrifice in particular was to be able to forgive sins. which is done ONLY through faith which is what the text states.
There is no "not guility" in any of these citations that you are using. This is the error of Anselm's theory of satisfaction and the substitution theory as held by Calvinists added with the penalty aspect.

You cannot attain Christ by any of your good works....

I Cor 5.17-21 & Eph 2.8-9... again you are refuted...
Change happens through faith, not by works....

Irrelevant because that is your misunderstanding. Salvation was given to the world by Christ, also known as His Atonement. Man has nothing to do with salvation or atonement.
However, the purpose was to enable God and man to have both a relationship now in this life, and for eternity. Eteral life is a gift for which a believer only inherits if he produces fruit worthy of inheriting eternal life. Most of the NT is spent in spelling out just what God desires from believers. It is works through faith. We were created for those works. We are as righteous as we do righteouness, I John 3:7.
Also, again, II Cor 5:18-19 is Incarnational, it is Christ reconciling the world to God. This is the atonement. The purpose is to enable God and man to live in this world in a relationship through faith.

You are in such error here I cannot go on....You are destroyed for your complete lack of knowledge...SIN is not a test of ones faith....Are you saying Jesus sinned here? His faith was tested more than anyone?

Precisely. Which is wny Christ's faith is held up as a model and example for us. He did not sin. Sin is a choice, our choice. He demands that we be perfect. We don't attain that perfection, but that does not get us off the hook that we just simply not do anything. Attaining eternal life is all about being made holy, blameless, conformed to His Image. We do that by working with the Holy Spirit. Our relationship is governed by a mutual covenant between God and the believer.
So far you seem to be the only one is error.

I have cut you to the core with the sword of the Spirit, you need to seriously get with someone to help you friend, you state nothing that is Biblical or even in the Bible...all you vomit out are suppositions and opinions and nothing, not a thing you posted is even in the Bible....

it may not meet your man made theories which come shining through but you have not refuted a single thing I stated.
You need to abandon all your man made theories and get back to what the Bible has always taught from the beginning.

 

[The_highwayman]

The Highwayman,

Your whole explanation is based on faulty man made theories. What do you think the penalty of sin is?
How does Rom 8:2 eliminate hell, which is the penalty for sin?
Much of your explanation is that believers will not suffer the penalty of sin, which is true, but that does not remove the penalty of sin.
Several of your citations are not even referencing believers but mankind. Which is obvious you are espousing a view of limited atonment.
Sin is the only problem man has in this life. Sin, any sin is separation from God. If we do not either repent or confess our sins, they can convict one, namely hell. One of the functions of the Holy Spirit is to call all men to repentance and He does this by convicting them of their sin thus their need for Him and forgiveness.
that text isolated says what you want it to say. However, belief, faith must be active. A simple faith, or faith alone is hell. If our faith has no works it is a dead faith, and one does not inherit eternal life.
where in either of these chapters does it ever say that justification by faith means to be declared "not guilty" of all sins in perpetuity? The only place that happens is in Anselm's theory of atonement.
Vs 24 applies to every human being. However the purpose of the Atonement, the sacrifice in particular was to be able to forgive sins. which is done ONLY through faith which is what the text states.
There is no "not guility" in any of these citations that you are using. This is the error of Anselm's theory of satisfaction and the substitution theory as held by Calvinists added with the penalty aspect.
Irrelevant because that is your misunderstanding. Salvation was given to the world by Christ, also known as His Atonement. Man has nothing to do with salvation or atonement.
However, the purpose was to enable God and man to have both a relationship now in this life, and for eternity. Eteral life is a gift for which a believer only inherits if he produces fruit worthy of inheriting eternal life. Most of the NT is spent in spelling out just what God desires from believers. It is works through faith. We were created for those works. We are as righteous as we do righteouness, I John 3:7.
Also, again, II Cor 5:18-19 is Incarnational, it is Christ reconciling the world to God. This is the atonement. The purpose is to enable God and man to live in this world in a relationship through faith.
Precisely. Which is wny Christ's faith is held up as a model and example for us. He did not sin. Sin is a choice, our choice. He demands that we be perfect. We don't attain that perfection, but that does not get us off the hook that we just simply not do anything. Attaining eternal life is all about being made holy, blameless, conformed to His Image. We do that by working with the Holy Spirit. Our relationship is governed by a mutual covenant between God and the believer.
So far you seem to be the only one is error.
it may not meet your man made theories which come shining through but you have not refuted a single thing I stated.
You need to abandon all your man made theories and get back to what the Bible has always taught from the beginning.

The Bible teaches there is a GOD side and a MAN side to redemption......you persist in teaching false doctrine....

You could not even refute me with scripture, just more of your doctrine of mans understanding...The Bible has spoken and you are wrong...

 

[Elin]

I do not know if this example is what you are looking for Elin, but maybe along the same lines.

Yes, it is. . .and thanks so much for responding.

 

[The_highwayman]

Yes, it is. . .and thanks so much for responding.

you are welcome...

 

[Cassian]

The Bible teaches there is a GOD side and a MAN side to redemption......you persist in teaching false doctrine....

You could not even refute me with scripture, just more of your doctrine of mans understanding...The Bible has spoken and you are wrong...

So you believe man can save himself from death and sin? Scripture says that Christ redeemed all things, Col 1:20. What text says that man redeems himself? It says Christ reconciled the world to God II Cor 5:18-19. What part does man play in reconciling the world?

You claim it is false, but have not shown with any evidence that it is false. On the other hand you clearly hold to several man made theories which scripture does not support.

The fact you have not substantive reply shows that you cannot refute what I stated.

 

[Sophia]

"Christus Victor" is WHY Jesus died. (Colossians 2:15; Hebrews 2:14-15; 1 John 3:8)

"Penal Substitution" is HOW His death worked. (Romans 3:25-26; Galatians 3:13; 2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 John 2:2, 4:10)

"Moral Example/Influence" is WHAT we are to do in response. (1st John 3:16, 4:7-12; Romans 5:8; 1 Peter 2:21)

Honestly, I don't understand how people see these as opposing views,
as they work together perfectly as the harmony of the Atonement effected/affected upon the elect through Christ.

 

[Sophia]

Atonement is not shortsighted or narrowly focused,
just as the Life, Death, and Ressurection of Christ is not aimed at one aspect.

It is "downwards" in defeating sin, Death, and Satan.
It is "upwards" in satisfying the requirements of God, as His image on earth.
It is "sideways" in giving us an example and an influence, and showing us just how much God loves us.

 

[gotime]

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

 

[Sophia]

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Please, explain how this is relevant, as this is one of my favorite portions of Scripture.

 

[oldthennew]

ISAIAH 59:2.
But your iniquities have separated between you and your God,
and your sins have hid his face from you, that He 'will not hear'.

we are separated from our Father because of our sins, that's why
Romans 5:6. says, 'For when we were still without strength, Christ DIED
for the 'ungodly.'

so, this is how our FATHER demonstrates (His LOVE for us.)

scripture states that 'much MORE then, having been 'justified'
by His Blood, (the shedding of His Blood through His death) -
REAPS our ATONEMENT and Strong's defines the ATONEMENT
as reconciliation.

this is why Paul goes on and further confirms what he has previously said,
in Romans 5:6-9. - Romans 5:10-11, it is repeating and expounding the
previous thought.
it thus states, 'for if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God, (received the ATONEMENT)
through the death of His Son, much more having been reconciled, we shall be saved
BY HIS LIFE'.

He is clarifying the same thing that He said in vs.6-9. - and His statement,
'we shall be saved by His Life', - in contrast to the Isaiah statement where He
says that He (does not hear), But your iniquities have separated between you
and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
NOW----He DOES HEAR, for our Christ is our 'Eternal Priest' that 'continually makes
intercession for the RECONCILED, REPENTANT sinner-
'THEREFORE, WE SHALL BE SAVED BY HIS LIFE'.

 

[Elin]

'THEREFORE, WE SHALL BE SAVED BY HIS LIFE'.

That is his resurrection life where he applies the benefits of his death to the elect.