ATONEMENT
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but it must include the HOW and the result.
I don't like the word ''study'' it implies what you will learn by your own hard work and effort of your brain.
You cannot separate Christ's death for the sin of the believer and victory over sin in their life.
The power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56
What happens if you take something's power away? It must weaken mustn't it, nothing else is possible.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
Righteousness Through Faith
[SUP]21 [/SUP]But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. [SUP]22 [/SUP]This righteousness is given through faith in[SUP][h][/SUP] Jesus Christ to all who believe Rom 3:19-22
Christ's death at Calvary took away sins power from your life, for his death brought a righteousness for the believer apart from the law, only through the law can you be guilty of sin. Therefore, Jesus died for all your sins at Calvary.
The law comes in two parts, the law itself that is to be obeyed, and the penalty attached for breaking it. The latter is removed, the former has been transferred from an external law written on tablets of stone to an internal law written on tablets of human hearts.
In other words, thou shalt not covet, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not commit adultery etc are written on your mind and placed on your heart, which means in your heart you want to obey those commands. If you in your heart want to obey them, you cannot at the same time wilfully, without conscience seek to disobey them, such a thing is not possible. You can disobey, but your conscience will bring you to a very low place, until you bow the knee and follow after the Spirit rather than the flesh.
Jesus died to pay the penalty of your sin, and to remove the power of sin from your life, and the power of sin is the law. The law with its penalty attached for non compliance. So the new covenant brought a desire in the heart of the believer to obey, and because that is the case, the penalty of sin was removed from their life. So what is the true power of sin? For the law God desires you to keep remains intact within you?
I would say, rely less on ''studying'' and ask God more for spiritual truth, it can only come one way 1Cor2:12-14
"Penal Substitution" is HOW His death worked. (Romans 3:25-26; Galatians 3:13; 2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 John 2:2, 4:10)[/quote} This is not HOW, but what He did. These are all Incarnational verses and does not even apply to ONLY believers.
The HOW it works out does only apply to believers, for as Jesus said: Ye MUST be born again
Correct for most, but hardly for the Calvinist. These all infer man's responsibility where as Calvinism man has no responsibility.
You cannot have false teaching/doctrines running parallel to the correct ones and think that would suffice.
You need to do a lot more study of all the options because at this point you do not understand them, if you cannot separate them.
The HOW it works out does only apply to believers, for as Jesus said: Ye MUST be born again
Correct for most, but hardly for the Calvinist. These all infer man's responsibility where as Calvinism man has no responsibility.
You cannot have false teaching/doctrines running parallel to the correct ones and think that would suffice.
You need to do a lot more study of all the options because at this point you do not understand them, if you cannot separate them.
You cannot separate Christ's death for the sin of the believer and victory over sin in their life.
The power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56
What happens if you take something's power away? It must weaken mustn't it, nothing else is possible.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
Righteousness Through Faith
[SUP]21 [/SUP]But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. [SUP]22 [/SUP]This righteousness is given through faith in[SUP][h][/SUP] Jesus Christ to all who believe Rom 3:19-22
Christ's death at Calvary took away sins power from your life, for his death brought a righteousness for the believer apart from the law, only through the law can you be guilty of sin. Therefore, Jesus died for all your sins at Calvary.
The law comes in two parts, the law itself that is to be obeyed, and the penalty attached for breaking it. The latter is removed, the former has been transferred from an external law written on tablets of stone to an internal law written on tablets of human hearts.
In other words, thou shalt not covet, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not commit adultery etc are written on your mind and placed on your heart, which means in your heart you want to obey those commands. If you in your heart want to obey them, you cannot at the same time wilfully, without conscience seek to disobey them, such a thing is not possible. You can disobey, but your conscience will bring you to a very low place, until you bow the knee and follow after the Spirit rather than the flesh.
Jesus died to pay the penalty of your sin, and to remove the power of sin from your life, and the power of sin is the law. The law with its penalty attached for non compliance. So the new covenant brought a desire in the heart of the believer to obey, and because that is the case, the penalty of sin was removed from their life. So what is the true power of sin? For the law God desires you to keep remains intact within you?
I would say, rely less on ''studying'' and ask God more for spiritual truth, it can only come one way 1Cor2:12-14
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S
but it must include the HOW and the result.
Try and ask a Calvinist if they believe that man is responsible for sin, or if they are given a responsibility in Christ.
Never heard a Calvinist say that man has no responsibility. That's a weak strawman.
Please answer this:
How did the work on the cross defeat sin, Death, and Satan?
"Penal Substitution" is HOW His death worked. (Romans 3:25-26; Galatians 3:13; 2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 John 2:2, 4:10)[/quote} This is not HOW, but what He did. These are all Incarnational verses and does not even apply to ONLY believers.
Correct for most, but hardly for the Calvinist. These all infer man's responsibility where as Calvinism man has no responsibility.
You cannot have false teaching/doctrines running parallel to the correct ones and think that would suffice.
You need to do a lot more study of all the options because at this point you do not understand them, if you cannot separate them.
Correct for most, but hardly for the Calvinist. These all infer man's responsibility where as Calvinism man has no responsibility.
You cannot have false teaching/doctrines running parallel to the correct ones and think that would suffice.
You need to do a lot more study of all the options because at this point you do not understand them, if you cannot separate them.
Never heard a Calvinist say that man has no responsibility. That's a weak strawman.
Please answer this:
How did the work on the cross defeat sin, Death, and Satan?
but it must include the HOW and the result.
I don't like the word ''study'' it implies what you will learn by your own hard work and effort of your brain.
You cannot separate Christ's death for the sin of the believer and victory over sin in their life.
The power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56
What happens if you take something's power away? It must weaken mustn't it, nothing else is possible.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
Righteousness Through Faith
[SUP]21 [/SUP]But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. [SUP]22 [/SUP]This righteousness is given through faith in[SUP][h][/SUP] Jesus Christ to all who believe Rom 3:19-22
Christ's death at Calvary took away sins power from your life, for his death brought a righteousness for the believer apart from the law, only through the law can you be guilty of sin. Therefore, Jesus died for all your sins at Calvary.
The law comes in two parts, the law itself that is to be obeyed, and the penalty attached for breaking it. The latter is removed, the former has been transferred from an external law written on tablets of stone to an internal law written on tablets of human hearts.
In other words, thou shalt not covet, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not commit adultery etc are written on your mind and placed on your heart, which means in your heart you want to obey those commands. If you in your heart want to obey them, you cannot at the same time wilfully, without conscience seek to disobey them, such a thing is not possible. You can disobey, but your conscience will bring you to a very low place, until you bow the knee and follow after the Spirit rather than the flesh.
Jesus died to pay the penalty of your sin, and to remove the power of sin from your life, and the power of sin is the law. The law with its penalty attached for non compliance. So the new covenant brought a desire in the heart of the believer to obey, and because that is the case, the penalty of sin was removed from their life. So what is the true power of sin? For the law God desires you to keep remains intact within you?
I would say, rely less on ''studying'' and ask God more for spiritual truth, it can only come one way 1Cor2:12-14
I don't like the word ''study'' it implies what you will learn by your own hard work and effort of your brain.
You cannot separate Christ's death for the sin of the believer and victory over sin in their life.
The power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56
What happens if you take something's power away? It must weaken mustn't it, nothing else is possible.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
Righteousness Through Faith
[SUP]21 [/SUP]But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. [SUP]22 [/SUP]This righteousness is given through faith in[SUP][h][/SUP] Jesus Christ to all who believe Rom 3:19-22
Christ's death at Calvary took away sins power from your life, for his death brought a righteousness for the believer apart from the law, only through the law can you be guilty of sin. Therefore, Jesus died for all your sins at Calvary.
The law comes in two parts, the law itself that is to be obeyed, and the penalty attached for breaking it. The latter is removed, the former has been transferred from an external law written on tablets of stone to an internal law written on tablets of human hearts.
In other words, thou shalt not covet, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not commit adultery etc are written on your mind and placed on your heart, which means in your heart you want to obey those commands. If you in your heart want to obey them, you cannot at the same time wilfully, without conscience seek to disobey them, such a thing is not possible. You can disobey, but your conscience will bring you to a very low place, until you bow the knee and follow after the Spirit rather than the flesh.
Jesus died to pay the penalty of your sin, and to remove the power of sin from your life, and the power of sin is the law. The law with its penalty attached for non compliance. So the new covenant brought a desire in the heart of the believer to obey, and because that is the case, the penalty of sin was removed from their life. So what is the true power of sin? For the law God desires you to keep remains intact within you?
I would say, rely less on ''studying'' and ask God more for spiritual truth, it can only come one way 1Cor2:12-14
Your disconnected ramblings are so far from scripture it is futile to attempt to set it straight. Your whole statement is based on a limited atonement and predestination notion which scripture never teaches. It also shows a lot from the Anselmian theory of justification by faith notion of "not guilty".
but it must include the HOW and the result.
Try and ask a Calvinist if they believe that man is responsible for sin, or if they are given a responsibility in Christ.
Never heard a Calvinist say that man has no responsibility. That's a weak strawman.
Please answer this:
How did the work on the cross defeat sin, Death, and Satan?
Try and ask a Calvinist if they believe that man is responsible for sin, or if they are given a responsibility in Christ.
Never heard a Calvinist say that man has no responsibility. That's a weak strawman.
Please answer this:
How did the work on the cross defeat sin, Death, and Satan?
If God needs to regenerate one to respond to God, then man has no free will.
If that regeneration can only permit that person to act in accordance with His will, he does not have free will.
If there is no free will, there cannot be responsibility.
If God forordained one to heaven and the rest to hell, then man has no responsiblity.
How did the work on the cross defeat sin, Death, and Satan?
He defeated sin by performing a sacrifice for sin, thus atoning sin.
He defeated Satan because the power of Satan is death and sin.
that is a very simplified explanation and can be summed up in two verses, Heb 2:9, I John 2:2.
You may not like the word "study" but clearly you have no spiritual Truth as scripture has always meant from the beginning.
Your disconnected ramblings are so far from scripture it is futile to attempt to set it straight. Your whole statement is based on a limited atonement and predestination notion which scripture never teaches. It also shows a lot from the Anselmian theory of justification by faith notion of "not guilty".
Your disconnected ramblings are so far from scripture it is futile to attempt to set it straight. Your whole statement is based on a limited atonement and predestination notion which scripture never teaches. It also shows a lot from the Anselmian theory of justification by faith notion of "not guilty".
Studying without being led into truth by the Holy Spirit is a futile exercise, and one that will never you into spiritual truth
S
Calvinist really do not understand the theology of predestination and the statements of the Westminster Confession respective of scripture. Their problem is that they impose a supposition upon scripture that is not there thus it becomes so disjointed from scripture that they create all of their paradoxes.
If God needs to regenerate one to respond to God, then man has no free will.
If that regeneration can only permit that person to act in accordance with His will, he does not have free will.
If there is no free will, there cannot be responsibility.
If God forordained one to heaven and the rest to hell, then man has no responsiblity.
It defeated death by raising from the dead with our mortal natures thus giving all men life.
He defeated sin by performing a sacrifice for sin, thus atoning sin.
He defeated Satan because the power of Satan is death and sin.
that is a very simplified explanation and can be summed up in two verses, Heb 2:9, I John 2:2.
If God needs to regenerate one to respond to God, then man has no free will.
If that regeneration can only permit that person to act in accordance with His will, he does not have free will.
If there is no free will, there cannot be responsibility.
If God forordained one to heaven and the rest to hell, then man has no responsiblity.
It defeated death by raising from the dead with our mortal natures thus giving all men life.
He defeated sin by performing a sacrifice for sin, thus atoning sin.
He defeated Satan because the power of Satan is death and sin.
that is a very simplified explanation and can be summed up in two verses, Heb 2:9, I John 2:2.
The Bible teaches a 100% Sovereign God, and teaches that man is still responsible for sin and condemnation, yet cannot claim responsibility for thier salvation(because it is not of us or by us, but by God's Grace). Human logic may not be able to solve this riddle, but by Faith we believe the Word.
Show me "free will" in the Scriptures.
Show me "free will" attached to responsibility in he Scriptures.
Show me "free will" attached to salvation in Scriptures.
There is "will", but it is not considered "free" by either the Word or by science. Only philosophers and Chaldean mystics give the connective logic... and neither are the Holy Spirit.
BTW, you described universal penal substitution as your explanation of how the Cross worked. Was that your intent?
S
You also seem to leave out how the whole world is atoned for, yet many will face Judgement and fire.
Sounds like you are saying that the Sacrifice didn't really do much...
The words "effectual" and "affectual" might be use to you.
The whole world has "affectual" atonement, as the universal call has gone out to all, and affects all things,
but only the Believers, the Elect, have "effectual" atonement: effectively atoning their sins.
Sounds like you are saying that the Sacrifice didn't really do much...
The words "effectual" and "affectual" might be use to you.
The whole world has "affectual" atonement, as the universal call has gone out to all, and affects all things,
but only the Believers, the Elect, have "effectual" atonement: effectively atoning their sins.
It also shows a lot from the Anselmian theory of justification by faith notion of "not guilty".
For in the gospel the righteousness(justification) of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith. Rom 1:17
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. [SUP]22 [/SUP]This righteousness is given through faith in[SUP][h][/SUP] Jesus Christ to all who believe Rom 3:21&22
Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. [SUP]28 [/SUP]For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law Rom 3:27&28
Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law Rom 3:31
You need to understand, the new covenant hinges on not one, but two core facts. One without the other equals no new covenant.
This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[SUP][b][/SUP][SUP]17 [/SUP]Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”[SUP][c][/SUP]
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary Heb 10:16-18
I cannot comment on the Anselmian theory I am afraid, I stick to the bible, possibly it would help if you did the same. Reading up on theories of others is a distraction from what is more important in my view
Sophia,
God can be 100% Sovereign and man still can have free choice. God created man specifically with a free will in His Image. Only Calvinists create an untenable relationship.
Actually predestination was lifted by Augustine from the Manicheans and Gnostics.That is not conjecture, but historical and theological fact.
You also do not have the scriptural meaning of salvation either. Man has nothing to do with Salvation, Salvation the scriptures teach is from death sin and Satan. It is why man needs Christ in the first place. However, the purpose of Salvation was to enable God and man to reunite again in an eternal union. Eternal life is wholly man based, man's free choice, just as it was with Adam in the beginning. We were not created to be some dupes, or puppets that moved and acted according to the actions of God. There would be no reason to create man. God does not need man.
There is no riddle. That only exists in Calvinism that tries to impose false suppositions upon scripture. It is an entirely new faith systemhe developed and none of what is understood as Calvinism has ever been taught in scripture.
As expected, because Calvinism does not recognize it you have no idea of what it even means. You can begin with Adam. Every man will choose either to reject Christ or accept His offer of union in this life and for eternity. There is hardly a chapter that does not reiterate that man will give an account of his actions with the gifts all men have been given. There is no man that will be able to give God and excuse that he did not know God. The Holy Spirit is now working upon all men to convict them of their sin and need for Christ.
that's because you do not understand what it actually means. I know that there are at least three end-arounds that Calvinist theologians have developed in trying to erase the false premise that exists in their theology. Even Calvin himself felt the need to develop his theory of immediate and promimate wills. Then you have the go-around of pre and post lapsinarianism. It is simply amazing just how man scenerios one needs to develop trying to make it fit scripture.
Must have been your misunderstanding.
Your unbiblical philosophy of the relation between "free" will and responsibility is where you err from Truth, and side with Plato, the Stoics, and the Zoroastrians.
The Bible teaches a 100% Sovereign God, and teaches that man is still responsible for sin and condemnation, yet cannot claim responsibility for thier salvation(because it is not of us or by us, but by God's Grace). Human logic may not be able to solve this riddle, but by Faith we believe the Word.
The Bible teaches a 100% Sovereign God, and teaches that man is still responsible for sin and condemnation, yet cannot claim responsibility for thier salvation(because it is not of us or by us, but by God's Grace). Human logic may not be able to solve this riddle, but by Faith we believe the Word.
Actually predestination was lifted by Augustine from the Manicheans and Gnostics.That is not conjecture, but historical and theological fact.
You also do not have the scriptural meaning of salvation either. Man has nothing to do with Salvation, Salvation the scriptures teach is from death sin and Satan. It is why man needs Christ in the first place. However, the purpose of Salvation was to enable God and man to reunite again in an eternal union. Eternal life is wholly man based, man's free choice, just as it was with Adam in the beginning. We were not created to be some dupes, or puppets that moved and acted according to the actions of God. There would be no reason to create man. God does not need man.
There is no riddle. That only exists in Calvinism that tries to impose false suppositions upon scripture. It is an entirely new faith systemhe developed and none of what is understood as Calvinism has ever been taught in scripture.
Show me "free will" in the Scriptures.
Show me "free will" attached to responsibility in he Scriptures.
Show me "free will" attached to salvation in Scriptures.
Show me "free will" attached to responsibility in he Scriptures.
Show me "free will" attached to salvation in Scriptures.
There is "will", but it is not considered "free" by either the Word or by science. Only philosophers and Chaldean mystics give the connective logic... and neither are the Holy Spirit.
BTW, you described universal penal substitution as your explanation of how the Cross worked. Was that your intent?
Sohia,
Because you are so aligned with Calvinism and also Original Sin theory, you bypass the real work of Christ in reversing the fall itself. One cannot even speak of hell or heaven unless Christ first redeems this world from death. Christ did in fact save the world and mankind from death and sin. Which is why He is the Savior of the world. Which is also why such a notion of a limited atonement is an impossibility given who Christ is and what He accomplished by His Incarnation and resurrection.
The actual theology of Calvinism actually denies Christ, His Incarnation and His resurrection by claiming it is limited therefore scripture states would make everything null and void.
You should do a study of the atonement outside of Calvinism, you might learn something of what scripture actually teaches. The Gift of salvation, that is, the work Christ did through His Incarnation, death and resurrection is a gift, an outright gift given to every human being including the world itself.
However, the offer of eternal life to those that believe and the ability to have that relationship in this life is due to His High Priestly function, in that He can forgive the sins we repent of, and confess. Christ did not forgive sins on the Cross or by some unilateral action just because He atoned for the sin of the world. That happens to be the meaning of Limited Atonement, which is impossible and scripture never teaches it. It is a direct denial of the Incarnation itself which is how Christ reconciled the world to God.
Study what atonement means and what forgiveness means. They are not the same.
You also seem to leave out how the whole world is atoned for, yet many will face Judgement and fire.
Sounds like you are saying that the Sacrifice didn't really do much...
Sounds like you are saying that the Sacrifice didn't really do much...
The actual theology of Calvinism actually denies Christ, His Incarnation and His resurrection by claiming it is limited therefore scripture states would make everything null and void.
The whole world has "affectual" atonement, as the universal call has gone out to all, and affects all things,
but only the Believers, the Elect, have "effectual" atonement: effectively atoning their sins.
but only the Believers, the Elect, have "effectual" atonement: effectively atoning their sins.
However, the offer of eternal life to those that believe and the ability to have that relationship in this life is due to His High Priestly function, in that He can forgive the sins we repent of, and confess. Christ did not forgive sins on the Cross or by some unilateral action just because He atoned for the sin of the world. That happens to be the meaning of Limited Atonement, which is impossible and scripture never teaches it. It is a direct denial of the Incarnation itself which is how Christ reconciled the world to God.
Study what atonement means and what forgiveness means. They are not the same.
Absolutely.
For in the gospel the righteousness(justification) of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith. Rom 1:17
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. [SUP]22 [/SUP]This righteousness is given through faith in[SUP][h][/SUP] Jesus Christ to all who believe Rom 3:21&22
Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. [SUP]28 [/SUP]For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law Rom 3:27&28
Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law Rom 3:31
You need to understand, the new covenant hinges on not one, but two core facts. One without the other equals no new covenant.
This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[SUP][b][/SUP][SUP]17 [/SUP]Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”[SUP][c][/SUP]
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary Heb 10:16-18
I cannot comment on the Anselmian theory I am afraid, I stick to the bible, possibly it would help if you did the same. Reading up on theories of others is a distraction from what is more important in my view
For in the gospel the righteousness(justification) of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith. Rom 1:17
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. [SUP]22 [/SUP]This righteousness is given through faith in[SUP][h][/SUP] Jesus Christ to all who believe Rom 3:21&22
Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. [SUP]28 [/SUP]For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law Rom 3:27&28
Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law Rom 3:31
You need to understand, the new covenant hinges on not one, but two core facts. One without the other equals no new covenant.
This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[SUP][b][/SUP][SUP]17 [/SUP]Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”[SUP][c][/SUP]
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary Heb 10:16-18
I cannot comment on the Anselmian theory I am afraid, I stick to the bible, possibly it would help if you did the same. Reading up on theories of others is a distraction from what is more important in my view
The ONLY place that the notion of "not guilty" is found is in Anselm's theory of satisfaction or also known as the forensic theory. Some of you should study scripture outside of your preconceived notions that other false teachers have passed on to you. You should know that many men have imposed their view upon scripture. Over the last 500 years the number of theories, notions, doctrines that have originated from sola scripturists is mind boggling. They all got them from their personal study of scripture.
The problem is that your explanation cannot be found in the Bible. Only in a man made theory, a theory that is based on Roman/English law at that.
S
Sohia,
Because you are so aligned with Calvinism and also Original Sin theory, you bypass the real work of Christ in reversing the fall itself. One cannot even speak of hell or heaven unless Christ first redeems this world from death. Christ did in fact save the world and mankind from death and sin. Which is why He is the Savior of the world. Which is also why such a notion of a limited atonement is an impossibility given who Christ is and what He accomplished by His Incarnation and resurrection.
The actual theology of Calvinism actually denies Christ, His Incarnation and His resurrection by claiming it is limited therefore scripture states would make everything null and void.
You should do a study of the atonement outside of Calvinism, you might learn something of what scripture actually teaches. The Gift of salvation, that is, the work Christ did through His Incarnation, death and resurrection is a gift, an outright gift given to every human being including the world itself.
However, the offer of eternal life to those that believe and the ability to have that relationship in this life is due to His High Priestly function, in that He can forgive the sins we repent of, and confess. Christ did not forgive sins on the Cross or by some unilateral action just because He atoned for the sin of the world. That happens to be the meaning of Limited Atonement, which is impossible and scripture never teaches it. It is a direct denial of the Incarnation itself which is how Christ reconciled the world to God.
Study what atonement means and what forgiveness means. They are not the same.
Because you are so aligned with Calvinism and also Original Sin theory, you bypass the real work of Christ in reversing the fall itself. One cannot even speak of hell or heaven unless Christ first redeems this world from death. Christ did in fact save the world and mankind from death and sin. Which is why He is the Savior of the world. Which is also why such a notion of a limited atonement is an impossibility given who Christ is and what He accomplished by His Incarnation and resurrection.
The actual theology of Calvinism actually denies Christ, His Incarnation and His resurrection by claiming it is limited therefore scripture states would make everything null and void.
You should do a study of the atonement outside of Calvinism, you might learn something of what scripture actually teaches. The Gift of salvation, that is, the work Christ did through His Incarnation, death and resurrection is a gift, an outright gift given to every human being including the world itself.
However, the offer of eternal life to those that believe and the ability to have that relationship in this life is due to His High Priestly function, in that He can forgive the sins we repent of, and confess. Christ did not forgive sins on the Cross or by some unilateral action just because He atoned for the sin of the world. That happens to be the meaning of Limited Atonement, which is impossible and scripture never teaches it. It is a direct denial of the Incarnation itself which is how Christ reconciled the world to God.
Study what atonement means and what forgiveness means. They are not the same.
I have little first hand experience with Catholicism, but have read enough of their writings to understand the view.
I had already been shown 4 of the 5 points of Calvinism on my own in reading the Word, and had to leave my mother's church because of the disagreement over salvation and purpose of the True Church. The 5th was not something readily accepted when I heard of the points for the first time, but that was due to physically minded pride, solved by submitting to the Word.
The phrase "before the foundations of the earth were laid" proves sublapsarianism.
You deny personal election of the Saints?
You have proven that you don't believe in the atonement of Christ, and that atonement is something that each of us do for ourselves. Also, you reject the OT view of atonement, and go a step further and claim that it is based on Roman/English law. The opposite. There is no atonement in Roman law, only punishment upon those charged guilty. There is no transfer or covering of guilt or punishment.
Atonement is not the same as forgiveness of sins, which we also gain in Christ, but is about the covering over and/or repositioning of guilt. According to the OT, the guilt remains, but is transferred, or covered over by the sacrifice.
Atonement is the solution for guilt, and the solution for the penalty deserved to the guilty.
If there is deserved punishment dealt, then there was no atonement effected upon the individual.
You need to read Ephesians chapter one. It contradicts your entire view of the Church, personal salvation, forgiveness of sins, and predestination.
S
Are you R. Catholic, E. Orthodox, or some non-denominational version of those?
I can tell you are well read in men's writings about theology,
and suggest that you may want to dial back the accusations of me studying a man's interpretation of doctrine.
I am not a Calvinist. I do agree with some of his assertions, but by no means identify with the man,
and would never use a man's words or arguments as a source of Truth.
I also disagree with many of the points of the Westminister Catechism (which is what I view as the doctrinal statement of most Calvinists).
I can tell you are well read in men's writings about theology,
and suggest that you may want to dial back the accusations of me studying a man's interpretation of doctrine.
I am not a Calvinist. I do agree with some of his assertions, but by no means identify with the man,
and would never use a man's words or arguments as a source of Truth.
I also disagree with many of the points of the Westminister Catechism (which is what I view as the doctrinal statement of most Calvinists).
S
Predestination tells that God is unjust.
Why does the clay call the Potter unjust in forming objects for different purposes?
God gave a good response to Job when accused of being unjust: He displayed His Power and Sovereignty, and made no other excuse or explanation, as such is not needed.
Then why is the word used so often in Scripture, along with "chosen" and "elect".
Why does the clay call the Potter unjust in forming objects for different purposes?
God gave a good response to Job when accused of being unjust. By displaying His Power and Sovereignty.
Why does the clay call the Potter unjust in forming objects for different purposes?
God gave a good response to Job when accused of being unjust. By displaying His Power and Sovereignty.
S
God was describing to Job that He could not be self righteous and that he needed a redeemer. Job said Himself that I know my redeemer lives. Predestination spits in the face of the cross and actually has no need of it. If we were predesignated then we don't need the cross, we were chosen before the foundations of the world. It also makes Gods word a lie. In John 3:16 it says that whosoever shall believe. What if I was not predestined yet I believe. This means I have no hope, I was created for the sole purpose to burn in hell. That's not my God nor any God I want to believe in.
The Elect are saved by Grace, through Faith, unto good works of the Spirit.
Rather than "spitting on" the Cross, it shows why the Cross was needed to fulfill God's Plan of Redemtion,
and shows how the gift of Faith is the means of God's saving Grace upon helpless sinners.
We all choose sin and disobedience. We choose to go to hell rather than Heaven. It says in the Word that "no one chooses God".
God instead chooses us, to save a remnant of His Creation.
We justly deserve hell. God mercifully CHOOSES some to save, because we cannot save ourselves. That process of Him choosing is called "predestination" and "election". He chooses based on His own Love and Mercy, for the sake of His own Purpose, and by His own Will. It is not based on our actions or future decisions, because God is not a respected of persons. No one but the Godhead know who is and isn't elect, but by their fruit we can know them.
An individual can not know that they are not elect, unless they know they are an apostate. There is no other given disqualifier made known to mankind.
A person gains assurance in their election by living out their calling.
You should read Job again. Job was already considered righteous in the sight of God, and already knew his salvation rested in the Redeemer. God was showing Job that He alone is in control, and that no accusation against Him can stand.
S
In fact I would rather be Islam and cut your head off. I'm predestined for hell anyway.
No person has any excuse for their sin and unbelief.
No person deserves salvation. We deserve the opposite.
The only reason to reject predestination is if you believe that people don't deserve hell.
Predestination is a one way street. It is only to heaven.
No one is predestined for hell. We each choose that destiny for ourselves.
God changes the destiny of the elect, by choosing to save them by giving them Faith to believe upon Christ.