ATONEMENT

[The_highwayman]

Salvation is inclusive of a pure heart and obedience. There cannot be one without the other.

It is like faith and obedience, one cannot exist without the other.

Abraham could not have had faith and then refused to go out when told to do so. That would have been unfaithfulness.

As I have said we need a saviour because our hearts have to be purged of our past sins. Of course people ignore that and try to implicate that any called to obedience is a denial of Jesus. This is because they want to believe in the provision of Penal Substitution which is a doctrine whereby a salvation is provided without obedience due to salvation being purely forensic.

I know atheists with pure hearts that believe that all the good works they do give them a pure heart and they have and display better morals than some Christians I know....and yet have no faith in God or what Jesus did on the cross and refuse to believe

You look at any religion, Buddhism, Scientology, Hinduism, you name it....they all place creating a pure heart and faith at the epicenter of their core beliefs....yet they fail why?

What makes Christianity different is that we state we have need for a Savior and his shed blood and Faith in the act alone will save you...

 

[Skinski7]

I believe that you will agree that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, and all the OT saints were saved by grace through faith just as we NT saints are saved. If you consider the implications; I believe you might modify your position.

Indeed they were, yet saved by grace through faith has nothing to do with any moral transfer or sin penalty being paid on full.

 

[Skinski7]

I know atheists with pure hearts that believe that all the good works they do give them a pure heart and they have and display better morals than some Christians I know....and yet have no faith in God or what Jesus did on the cross and refuse to believe

You look at any religion, Buddhism, Scientology, Hinduism, you name it....they all place creating a pure heart and faith at the epicenter of their core beliefs....yet they fail why?

What makes Christianity different is that we state we have need for a Savior and his shed blood and Faith in the act alone will save you...

So you claim to know things. Yet it appears you don't know the Bible well enough to directly address the issues I raise.

All people can espouse rhetoric.

 

[AuphirahQueen]

So you claim to know things. Yet it appears you don't know the Bible well enough to directly address the issues I raise.

All people can espouse rhetoric.

I had not meant for this subject to become argumentative in views. When I write the new thread please do not DISRESPECT the subject ATONEMENT because it is HOLY! Always RESPECT the Sacred Word because it is the Ruach/Breath of ABBA. Everyone have a beautiful, joyful, peaceful day with love, forgiveness. Each person you meet today, please give that person a beautiful, huge, smile of joy!

 

[The_highwayman]

So you claim to know things. Yet it appears you don't know the Bible well enough to directly address the issues I raise.

All people can espouse rhetoric.

Every statement I have made to you is backed up in the Bible,...do not blame me for your lack of understanding the truth...

 

[Cassian]

You have the cart before the horse. I really hope you carefully read my previous post because I have done my best to lay it all out as clearly as possible. If you reject that then there is nothing more I can say to you.

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Obedience comes BEFORE salvation from sin, not afterwards. There it is, right there in your Bible. Believe it.

One of the biggest issues for Protestants especially is that for the last 500 years several false teachings have been taught so consistently in the beginning that today they are so pervasive and silent that everyone assumes that scripture has always taught them, doctrines such as Satisfaction/forensic theory of atonement; Original Sin, faith only, and then add the whole of Calvinism.

 

[Sophia]

Rather than limiting atonement (pun intended) to being either Penal Substitution or Christ Victorious,
can't it be both?

 

[Cassian]

Rather than limiting atonement (pun intended) to being either Penal Substitution or Christ Victorious,
can't it be both?

They are actually opposites. But the greater reason is that Pen/Sub is not tenable with scripture.


It's like having a belief in the Trinity and Unitarianism at the same time.

 

[Sophia]

They are actually opposites. But the greater reason is that Pen/Sub is not tenable with scripture.


It's like having a belief in the Trinity and Unitarianism at the same time.

not really, i just looked them over, and they syllogize very easily.

 

[Sophia]

Each is merely a focus, rather than a true change of position.
Some of the adherents may deny the other side, but the inherent principles of each actually do not directly conflict.

 

[michael56]

One of the biggest issues for Protestants especially is that for the last 500 years several false teachings have been taught so consistently in the beginning that today they are so pervasive and silent that everyone assumes that scripture has always taught them, doctrines such as Satisfaction/forensic theory of atonement; Original Sin, faith only, and then add the whole of Calvinism.

How is this false according to the bible?

The power of sin is the law(1Cor15:6) Or to put it exactly. The power of sin is the penalty attached to the law if you break it.

If I said to you. ''If you think of a pink rabbit God will condemn you to hell, what is the first thought that will come into your head if you believe me? But as you know there is no such penalty in place for thinking of such a creature you won't think about it will you.

The Christian has a righteousness before God APART FROM THE LAW. You can only be guilty of sin unto condemnation through a righteousness of obedience to the law, for sin is the transgression of the law(1John 3:4) Therefore, if you have a righteousness apart from the law before God, Jesus died for all your sins at Calvary, past, present and future.

People say that gives the Christian a license to sin. It would if the new covenant only hinged on one core fact, but it doesn't:

This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[SUP][b][/SUP][SUP]17 [/SUP]Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”[SUP][c][/SUP]

[SUP]18 [/SUP]And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary Heb 10:16-18

Jesus said to Nicodemus:

Ye MUST be born again. It is not an option, it is pivotal. By the law being placed on your heart and written on your mind at the point of conversion, you in your heart want to obey God. Because that has happened, and only because that has happened, your sins and lawless deeds will be remembered no more.
If you in your heart want to obey God you cannot at the same time wilfully commit sin without conscience, such a thing is not possible.

By Jesus paying the price of your sin at Calvary, he removed the true power of sin from your life(the penalty of sin)
Therefore, the born again Christians heartfelt desire to obey can now come to fruition, for what opposes obedience(sin) has been dealt a crushing blow by having its true power robbed from the Christians life. Hence Paul states:

Do we then nullify the law by this faith(a righteousness of faith in Christ not obedience to the law) Not at all! Rather we uphold the law Rom 3:31

 

[Skinski7]

How is this false according to the bible?

The power of sin is the law(1Cor15:6) Or to put it exactly. The power of sin is the penalty attached to the law if you break it.

Physical death is a result of humanity being denied access to the Tree of Life due to Adam sinning. It is part of the curse God put on mankind.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

If God did not deny access to the Tree of Life then Adam and Eve would have had the means to perpetually sustain their mortal bodies. Man was never created in immortal flesh.

Paul is speaking of the translation of the Saints unto an immortal physical state makes reference to the sting of death being sin...

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Physical death is going to be swallowed up in victory (ie. physical death will be terminated). The root cause of physical death was the sin of Adam and the reason that the "strength of sin is the law" is that without KNOWLEDGE or INSTRUCTION of "right doing" one cannot "sin unto death."

Without knowledge one cannot be held accountable for wrong doing because vice and virtue are both a manifestation of the exercise of free agency. This is why God is just in holding us accountable for our sin.

Now Michael, I will show you how you just twisted the Bible...

The power of sin is the law(1Cor15:6) Or to put it exactly. The power of sin is the penalty attached to the law if you break it.

1Cor 15:55 does not say what you just said.

1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

The strength of sin is the law itself. There is no mention of a "penalty" there. You added that to the text.

Now stop for a moment and think about that. You have clearly twisted the Bible with your words. You have clearly stated that the text says something that it does not say. Why? I assert that it is because you filter the Bible through the lense of an effectual delusion and probably don't even realise you are doing it. You want the Bible to be teaching a certain paradigm and thus your mind automatically filters verses and passages leading to you to conclude it is teaching what you want it to teach.



Anyway...
1Cor 15:56 is expressing the same sentiment as this...

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

In the above passage Paul is speaking of spiritual death resulting from sinning. In 1Cor 15:55-56 he is speaking of physical death which is the result is sin.

You have in your mind this idea that the "sin penalty" needs to be paid for. You have to reject that notion, it is not in the Bible. You cling to it at your own peril for it forces you to twist the Bible as I just demonstrated.


Here is another example...

The Christian has a righteousness before God APART FROM THE LAW. You can only be guilty of sin unto condemnation through a righteousness of obedience to the law, for sin is the transgression of the law(1John 3:4) Therefore, if you have a righteousness apart from the law before God, Jesus died for all your sins at Calvary, past, present and future.

When the Bible speaks of "a righteousness apart from the law" it is speaking of righteousness obtained via a FAITH WORKING BY LOVE. Here is proof...

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

You reject that principle and exchange it for "trusting in the Penal Substitution provision provided by Christ's death on the cross." You are trusting in a FABLE Michael. The doctrine of this Penal Substitution Provision is a 400 year old invention of men. It does not exist in the Bible and that is why you cannot provide any scripture which actually teaches it.

You have bought hook, line and sinker into a false gospel message and you are entrusting your soul to it.

By Jesus paying the price of your sin at Calvary, he removed the true power of sin from your life(the penalty of sin)

Jesus didn't "pay the price of sin" at Calvary. That is a fable. You won't find that taught anywhere in the Bible. Jesus paid the price FOR YOU. Jesus PURCHASED YOU. The penalty of sin is still in full effect, it never went anywhere, it has not been paid. That is why we have to FORSAKE SIN and YIELD UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS which is the precondition for the penalty due for our past sins to be freely forgiven.

You are deceived into thinking that the sin debt cannot be applied to you because you trust in Jesus. You have been fooled.

Look at what I have written. I can so easily demonstrate how you twist the Bible. I can so easily provide passages and verses which absolutely refute what you believe. If you reject those passages you obviously don't really believe the Bible, you just lie to yourself in pretending that you do.

Do we then nullify the law by this faith(a righteousness of faith in Christ not obedience to the law) Not at all! Rather we uphold the law Rom 3:31

The reason faith upholds the law is because FAITH WORKS BY LOVE and LOVE FULFILLS THE LAW. If we love we don't steal, murder, lie, cheat etc. Thus the righteousness that operates behind the law is upheld. The law is but an outward expression of love. If we love we are no longer subject to the outward expression because we will manifest outward righteousness naturally.

I hope you are not to proud to honestly examine these things.

 

[Skinski7]

Each is merely a focus, rather than a true change of position.
Some of the adherents may deny the other side, but the inherent principles of each actually do not directly conflict.

You obviously have not thought it through seriously.

Penal Substitution is an obvious fallacy. Not only is it not taught in the Bible, it does not even make logical sense. The only reason you want to cling to it is because you are emotionally attached.

If I am wrong then give me another reason?

If you think the Bible teaches it then show me where.

Explain to me why the doctrine was never taught prior to 400 years ago?

The inherent principle of Penal Substitution is WRATH SATISFIED ala PENALTY PAID FOR and thus the punishment cannot be deemed due again. Under the Penal Model the sinner not being under condemnation has NOTHING to do with any change on the part of the sinner. They can be raping babies and murdering people but because their fine is paid they cannot be condemned.

That doesn't conflict with what Hebrews teaches about no falling under condemnation because no sacrifice remains if one willfully sins after being cleansed by the blood?

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

That passage clearly warns that condemnation awaits someone who willfully sins after having been sanctified by the blood. It is a very disturbing passage and that is why most people refuse to believe it. They will pretend it says something else.

If you want to cling to Penal Substitution then you will have to harden your conscience against that passage and pretend it means something other than what it says, or alternatively just force it from your mind and refuse to think about it. In any case you will just be choosing willful ignorance.

Here is what the Bible teaches about the blood of Christ and what we use it for...

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

That is not Penal Substitution. That is the PURGING OF SIN from the conscience.

There is not a single verse or passage in the entire Bible which teaches anything remotely close to Penal Substitution. Nowhere. Yet you believe it. That is insanity, absolute insanity.

 

[michael56]

Physical
Now Michael, I will show you how you just twisted the Bible...



1Cor 15:55 does not say what you just said.

1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

The strength of sin is the law itself. There is no mention of a "penalty" there. You added that to the text.

Now stop for a moment and think about that. You have clearly twisted the Bible with your words. You have clearly stated that the text says something that it does not say. Why? I assert that it is because you filter the Bible through the lense of an effectual delusion and probably don't even realise you are doing it. You want the Bible to be teaching a certain paradigm and thus your mind automatically filters verses and passages leading to you to conclude it is teaching what you want it to teach.



Anyway...
1Cor 15:56 is expressing the same sentiment as this...

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

In the above passage Paul is speaking of spiritual death resulting from sinning. In 1Cor 15:55-56 he is speaking of physical death which is the result is sin.



.

I much appreciate you quoting Rom 7:7-11 after quoting 1Cor 15:56 it proves my point very well

The power of sin is indeed the penalty attached to the law if you break it. When the law came to Paul as a Pharisee, as you quoted, all manner of concupiscence was aroused in him through the commandment ''Thou shalt not covet'' Through the knowledge of the commandment, Paul became a worse sinner. I am sure you know what the word concupiscence means. By Paul knowing lust was wrong according to the commandment, he was filled with all manner of lust.

As a Pharisee Paul lived under the penalty of sin. As a Christian, he did not. I will repeat, if a Christian has a righteousness before God apart from the law, Jesus must have died for all their sins at Calvary, past, present and future, for only through the law can you be conscious, and guilty of sin.

Paul states

For sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace Rom 6:14

If you live under the law the penalty for sin remains, if you live under grace the penalty has been removed. Therefore, in reality Paul is saying. Sin shall not be your master for for you are not under the penalty attached to the law if you break it. Why is this so? Because the power of sin is the law.

. Being under the law, the penalty for sin is in place. Note, if you are not under the law, Paul means you are not undera LAW OF RIGHTEOUSNESS/RIGHTSTANDING BEFORE GOD.

I won't say you have twisted the bible, but rather you lack understanding of the core message of Paul. Anyone can quote the literal letter, the Pharisees of Jesus day did, you have to understand the heart of the message contained in that letter.

 

[Elin]

How is this false according to the bible?

The power of sin is the law(1Cor15:6) Or to put it exactly. The power of sin is the penalty attached to the law if you break it.

If I said to you. ''If you think of a pink rabbit God will condemn you to hell, what is the first thought that will come into your head if you believe me? But as you know there is no such penalty in place for thinking of such a creature you won't think about it will you.

The Christian has a righteousness before God APART FROM THE LAW. You can only be guilty of sin unto condemnation through a righteousness of obedience to the law, for sin is the transgression of the law(1John 3:4) Therefore, if you have a righteousness apart from the law before God, Jesus died for all your sins at Calvary, past, present and future.

People say that gives the Christian a license to sin. It would if the new covenant only hinged on one core fact, but it doesn't:

This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[SUP][b][/SUP][SUP]17 [/SUP]Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”[SUP][c][/SUP]

[SUP]18 [/SUP]And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary Heb 10:16-18

Jesus said to Nicodemus:

Ye MUST be born again. It is not an option, it is pivotal. By the law being placed on your heart and written on your mind at the point of conversion, you in your heart want to obey God. Because that has happened, and only because that has happened, your sins and lawless deeds will be remembered no more.
If you in your heart want to obey God you cannot at the same time wilfully commit sin without conscience, such a thing is not possible.

By Jesus paying the price of your sin at Calvary, he removed the true power of sin from your life(the penalty of sin)
Therefore, the born again Christians heartfelt desire to obey can now come to fruition, for what opposes obedience(sin) has been dealt a crushing blow by having its true power robbed from the Christians life.

I don't understand how removing the death penalty enables us to obey.

Hence Paul states:

Do we then nullify the law by this faith(a righteousness of faith in Christ not obedience to the law) Not at all! Rather we uphold the law Rom 3:31

 

[Elin]

One of the biggest issues for Protestants especially is that for the last 500 years several false teachings have been taught so consistently in the beginning that today they are so pervasive and silent that everyone assumes that scripture has always taught them, doctrines such as Satisfaction/forensic theory of atonement; Original Sin, faith only, and then add the whole of Calvinism.

Original sin does not come from Protestantism.

 

[michael56]

I don't understand how removing the death penalty enables us to obey.

The penalty of sin, brings great fear of sin, and fear of sin brings much allurement to sin:

If I said to you, “If you think of a pink rabbit, God will condemn you to hell,” what is the first thing you will think of if you believe me? You would try desperately never to think of such acreature, wouldn’t you? You would become agitated at the thought of a pink rabbit. You would be, animated, overwrought, disturbed, nervous, and panicstricken at the thought of the creature. You would end up in a frenzied state concerning it, I imagine. The more these emotions overcome you concerning the creature, the more the thought of the creature will overwhelm you; it will become irresistible. But as you know there is no penalty of condemnation in place if you think of a pink rabbit, you will not get worked upabout it, will you?

Paul states Romans 7:5-6:

For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death.But now, by dying to what once bound us, we havebeen released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. (NIV)

Paul tells us the law arouses sinful passions in us when we live under it. For he goes on to say we die to the law − we have been released from the law (of righteousness) as Christians and serve in the new way of the Spirit, not the old way of the written code (the law). Why does he say the law arouses sinful passions for those living under it?
The same emotions that would overcome you at the thought of a pink rabbit, if you believed such thoughts could condemn you, would also overcome you where sin is concerned if you live under the law. The penalty for sin is in place if you live under the law, isn’t it? Your sin, therefore can condemn you to hell. You would be extremely agitated at the thought of sin. You would be animated, overwrought, disturbed, nervous, and panic stricken at the thought of sin. The more these emotions concerning sin overcome you, the more sin will overwhelm you, and the more your ability to resist sin will weaken. Why is this? Because those emotions bring you to an excited state. They are all bar panic-stricken definitions of the word excite. And the definition of panic-stricken is “frenzy,” and the definition of frenzy is “wild excitement.” The emotions that result from your fear of the penalty for sin bring you to a very excited (or aroused) state where sin is concerned. If you live under the law, therefore,your fear of breaking it (sin) results in sinful passions being aroused in you.That is why Paul tells us the law arouses sinful passions in us if we live under it.

 

[Elin]

The penalty of sin, brings great fear of sin, and fear of sin brings much allurement to sin:

If I said to you, “If you think of a pink rabbit, God will condemn you to hell,” what is the first thing you will think of if you believe me? You would try desperately never to think of such acreature, wouldn’t you? You would become agitated at the thought of a pink rabbit. You would be, animated, overwrought, disturbed, nervous, and panicstricken at the thought of the creature. You would end up in a frenzied state concerning it, I imagine. The more these emotions overcome you concerning the creature, the more the thought of the creature will overwhelm you; it will become irresistible. But as you know there is no penalty of condemnation in place if you think of a pink rabbit, you will not get worked upabout it, will you?

Paul states Romans 7:5-6:

For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death.But now, by dying to what once bound us, we havebeen released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. (NIV)

Paul tells us the law arouses sinful passions in us when we live under it. For he goes on to say we die to the law − we have been released from the law (of righteousness) as Christians and serve in the new way of the Spirit, not the old way of the written code (the law). Why does he say the law arouses sinful passions for those living under it?
The same emotions that would overcome you at the thought of a pink rabbit, if you believed such thoughts could condemn you, would also overcome you where sin is concerned if you live under the law. The penalty for sin is in place if you live under the law, isn’t it? Your sin, therefore can condemn you to hell. You would be extremely agitated at the thought of sin. You would be animated, overwrought, disturbed, nervous, and panic stricken at the thought of sin. The more these emotions concerning sin overcome you, the more sin will overwhelm you, and the more your ability to resist sin will weaken. Why is this? Because those emotions bring you to an excited state. They are all bar panic-stricken definitions of the word excite. And the definition of panic-stricken is “frenzy,” and the definition of frenzy is “wild excitement.” The emotions that result from your fear of the penalty for sin bring you to a very excited (or aroused) state where sin is concerned. If you live under the law, therefore,your fear of breaking it (sin) results in sinful passions being aroused in you.That is why Paul tells us the law arouses sinful passions in us if we live under it.

Most interesting. . .very good explanation. . .I really have to think on this. . .because fear of something does not bring allurement for me, it brings avoidance, distancing, deterrence. . .I don't remember ever being allured by anything fearful to me.

I sure would like to hear from other folks on this. . .crossnote, old hermit and everybody and anybody else that I can't think of right now.

What do you think of the fear of the penalty of sin causing allurement to sin?

 

[oldhermit]

Most interesting. . .very good explanation. . .I really have to think on this. . .because fear of something does not bring allurement for me, it brings avoidance, distancing, deterrence. . .I don't remember ever being allured by anything fearful to me.

I sure would like to hear from other folks on this. . .crossnote, old hermit and everybody and anybody else that I can't think of right now.

What do you think of the fear of the penalty of sin causing allurement to sin?

Well, to use a benign psychological argument to suggest that the fear of the consequences of sin somehow entices us to enact upon that sin is rather silly. It is one thing to unavoidably envision a pink rabbit upon suggestion even when there is a penalty involved but, it is quite another thing to act upon a desire to steal even when aware of consequences. Unlike the image of a pink rabbit that comes unbidden to the mind you are able to control the impulse to steal. One of the provisions of the law that was designed to assist in the decision to not steal is the consequences that are imposed. In the garden, Eve conveyed the fact that she was quite aware of the consequences of the forbidden tree. It was not the consequences or penalties that enticed her to violate that prohibition but the perceived benefits of the fruit. The entire notion that penalty is somehow enticing is ludacris. As the Hebrew writer points out, the fear of the Law was the penalty of the law.

 

[michael56]

Well, to use a benign psychological argument to suggest that the fear of the consequences of sin somehow entices us to enact upon that sin is rather silly. It is one thing to unavoidably envision a pink rabbit upon suggestion even when there is a penalty involved but, it is quite another thing to act upon a desire to steal even when aware of consequences. Unlike the image of a pink rabbit that comes unbidden to the mind you are able to control the impulse to steal. One of the provisions of the law that was designed to assist in the decision to not steal is the consequences that are imposed. In the garden, Eve conveyed the fact that she was quite aware of the consequences of the forbidden tree. It was not the consequences or penalties that enticed her to violate that prohibition but the perceived benefits of the fruit. The entire notion that penalty is somehow enticing is ludacris. As the Hebrew writer points out, the fear of the Law was the penalty of the law.

When the commandment came to Paul the Pharisee, ''Thou shalt not covet'' he said sin, through the commandment aroused all manner of concupiscence in him.(Rom7:8) Why did this happen? The commandment did not just reveal Paul's sin, he became a worse sinner by knowing it.