ATONEMENT

[The_highwayman]

Most interesting. . .very good explanation. . .I really have to think on this. . .because fear of something does not bring allurement for me, it brings avoidance, distancing, deterrence. . .I don't remember ever being allured by anything fearful to me.

I sure would like to hear from other folks on this. . .crossnote, old hermit and everybody and anybody else that I can't think of right now.

What do you think of the fear of the penalty of sin causing allurement to sin?

I do not know if this example is what you are looking for Elin, but maybe along the same lines.

When I was growing up we belonged to a very legalistic Baptist church. I went to the school and we had dress codes, the boys had to have very short hair, nothing but collared shirts for men and boys, even on church workdays, no blue jeans could be worn, by men, kids and especially women. Could not eat pork, No Movies and no TV's in homes, no music except for Christ honoring music, no dancing, no PDA even between hubby and wives, etc, etc, etc...

It was evident this minsitry was attempting to change the outside to evoke a change in hear tor soul...We all know this will never happen...because outward changes do nothing to change the sin nature....

I never feared the penalty of breaking those rules, but the sin nature in me made me want to rebel against those rules big time...I am blessed that my parents finally woke up out of this false gospel and we left the church and school...We wore blue jeans again and were not headed to hell for doing it...even my Mom...LOL!

I maintained friendships with all the kid I knew and as they hit their teens and young adult years and left that church, their lives imploded because they never feared the penalty of breaking those rules, but they were held to a standard they could not keep and therefore their pendulum swung to the wrong side very fast and they sunk into darkness very rapidly...some never made it back, some even lost their lives literally...

So I don't believe it is the fear of the penalty of SIN that gives the allurement to SIN, I think it is just as Paul said in Romans 7, tell someone they cannot do something[the law] and they will have a greater desire to do it[sin nature] than without the law....

I think most Christians that Post Romans 7 have no clear understanding of what Paul was talking about...Paul was not stating he could not help his sin nature and that his sin nature is something he could not subdue or master, or that he could not stop or help himself from sinning...

To properly understand Romans 7, means you know from keys in Chapter 6, that Chapter 7 is a comparison to Chapter 8. It means you read Chapters 7 & 8 as one chapter, not 2 independent chapters of different topics...

Paul is not saying the fear of the penalty of SIN makes us SIN in Chapter 7...he is telling us, while we were under our SIN nature the law aroused us to SIN. Just like my example above...tell someone they cannot do something and it will make them want to do it that much more...this is what Paul is saying in the first part of Chapter 7, not that the fear ofthe penalty of the law causes me to want SIN.

Paul finishes chapter 7 by saying, if I stay under the law and try to for Christ, I will continually want to do the things I cannot, and then the Law condemns me for doing what I did not want to do in the first place...he finally screams out:

O wretched man that I am who will deliver me from the hamster wheel of Sinning under the LAW and then the Law condemning me or placing a Guilt trip on me for sinning in the first place...and then me sinning again and the law condemning...rinse and repeat....He then thanks God for Jesus whose redemptive works take us off the hamster wheel..
Paul says in is mind he wants to obey God, but his body is a salve to SIN...and this is were a very large number of Christians stop and get the idea they are still a slave to SIN and have no power over SIN, Because Paul said even he was a slave to sin...

Yet Paul does not finish the thought in Romans 7.25...he continues and shows us that he is not a slave to sin in Chapter 8.1-2

1There is now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Chapter 8 goes on an explain we do not have to be on the hamster wheel at all in Chapter 7, because of what Jesus and the Holy Spirit do for us in Chapter 8.

In my opinion, a very large number of Christians are Romans chapter 7 Christians today, when the Bible teaches us and the Father, Son and Holy Ghost need us to all be Romans 8 Christians...

 

[oldhermit]

When the commandment came to Paul the Pharisee, ''Thou shalt not covet'' he said sin, through the commandment aroused all manner of concupiscence in him.(Rom7:8) Why did this happen? The commandment did not just reveal Paul's sin, he became a worse sinner by knowing it.

Yes, but it was not the penalty that enticed him. It was the idea of stealing itself in spite of the penalty.

 

[michael56]

Most interesting. . .very good explanation. . .I really have to think on this. . .because fear of something does not bring allurement for me, it brings avoidance, distancing, deterrence. . .I don't remember ever being allured by anything fearful to me.

I sure would like to hear from other folks on this. . .crossnote, old hermit and everybody and anybody else that I can't think of right now.

What do you think of the fear of the penalty of sin causing allurement to sin?

Ellen, I wondered if the following might interest you:

If I asked a professional poker player tohave a game of poker with me for a ten pence
stake, he mightoblige, but there wouldn’t be any excitement in the game for him, would there? Thestake is too small. If the following week he was playing a game in Las Vegasand there was a million dollars on the table, however, he’d be greatly excitedthen, wouldn’t he? The stakes would have his heart pounding I am sure. It isnot possible to do anything that involves high stakes without great excitementsurging through the individual’s body, is it?
Many take up sports that have an element ofrisk or danger in them so they may experience the thrill in doing so. Some jumpoff bridges from great heights, with ropes securely fastened to their bodies atone end, and to the bridge at the other, with enough slack to send themhurtling hundreds of feet toward the ground below. When the slack is exhausted,they come to a juddering halt, and dangle in the air for a short time,exhilarated by the thrill of the event. So it is fair to say the higher therisk involved in an activity, the greater the excitement it causes in theindividual. The higher the stake a person plays for, the more the adrenalinflows.
There is one thing that dwarfs all otherswhen it comes to battling for high stakes and taking the greatest risks, however,and that is when you believe eternal life is at stake. After all, what higher stakecould a person play for than eternal life, and what activity could carry morerisk than one that could send you to hell? People of faith know more thananyone of excitement being stirred in them, for they are playing for thehighest stakes of all − and it isn’t a game! So what does the excitement focuson during this highest of all stakes battle? It must focus on what decides theoutcome of it, for therein lies the risk and danger.

Nowsuppose a young man in his late teens goes to a church service one night andbecomes a Christian. He believes God has wiped the slate clean because He hasforgiven any sin in his life and is, therefore, spotless in God’s sight becauseJesus died for his sins. This young man comes from a loving, secure home. Hehas hardly drunk, he has never smoked or used bad language, and he has not asyet had a serious girlfriend. Such a person you may think is off to a flyingstart as a Christian because he doesn’t have what people often consider the “taboo”sins that must cease in order for a person to attain Heaven.
So he sets out on the Christian walk. He isconvicted to live his life as a Christian must, for the law has been put on hisheart, and he is determined to follow his heart’s desire. The next day he goesout with some friends. They stop in a cafe for something to eat and a scantilyclad and attractive young lady walks in. Excitement is stirred in him as shestands close by. The young man immediately has a conscience at his thoughts. Thoughhe previously found women extremely attractive and had improper thoughtsconcerning them, for the first time, his conscience hurts him. He mustn’t havethose kind of thoughts now that he is a Christian.
A couple of days later, he is out againwith friends and sees a provocative-looking woman walking down the road. Thistime the excitement stirred in him is even greater. The improper thoughts,therefore, are much worse than they were on the previous occasion. He dwells onthem a little longer than he did the last time. This makes him feel far worsethan he did previously. If he wants to be a Christian, those thoughts have tostop.
The next evening he is watching television.A show comes on that he has seen many times before. He is very troubled. Weekafter week he has seen the woman who hosts the programme and hardly given her asecond glance, but now he is looking at her in a different way, one that stirsup a hornet’s nest in his mind.
Over the next few weeks the excitementgrows when he thinks of or comes into contact with women. The resulting impurethoughts gradually worsen. He is very concerned. When he first became aChristian he used to ask God once a week to forgive him of any imperfections inhis life, but now he asks every other day. At first he had no doubt Godimmediately forgave him, but now that the sin is getting worse, he is not soconfident. How can he be a Christian and have the thoughts he is having?
The excitement women stir in him mounts, itbecomes relentless. The impure thoughts magnify tenfold. He finds himself now dailypleading with God to forgive him for the wrong in his mind. He tries hishardest to resist such thoughts, but the harder he tries the worse they get. Itis like trying to cut through a swarm of bees with a sword; his efforts come tonothing. He stops socialising with other young people at the church because theywouldn’t want to know him if they understood the real him beneath the skin.
Eventually he finds the excitement thatwomen stir in him is out of control. He goes to church less frequently and spendsfar less time praying and reading his Bible. He is discouraged, wearied by hisfailed efforts to resist.
The final straw comes when he hires out apornographic film. He can’t be a Christian. He tried his hardest, but failed.In the few months since he got saved, he just ended up a worse sinner. The weird thing is before he became aChristian he looked at women and coveted them at times, but thoughts such asthe ones he is having now had never consumed his mind. He walks away depressed,convinced he will end up in hell. Even though he is sure God exists and Jesusdied on the cross to wipe the slate clean at the point of conversion, hecouldn’t be good enough for God. He was too weak and ill disciplined.

Now this young man became a Christian. Hewas immediately sin conscious we can say. Before God placed the law on theyoung man’s heart and wrote it on his mind, he committed sin, for improperthoughts and lust break the law of God, but before he became a Christian, hewould not have recognised his improper thoughts as sinful. For as we previouslysaw, it is only when we are conscious of God’s laws that we become conscious ofour sin because when we see our shortfall in obedience to those laws, the lightis turned on. So the young man earnestlydesired the sin to cease, for he had been born again, but his sinful nature, whichis basic to all and has been around since the time of Adam, didn’t want to stopsinning. It cannot, , for by its definition, it is a nature that desiresto break the law of God.
Now why did such fear and excitementovercome the young man where lust was concerned? Because he believed the outcome of thishighest-of-all-stakes battle hinged on ceasing his sin, in this case his improperthoughts. He was fully convinced this was the truth. The risk (or danger) ofhell centred on that one thing. Now, friend, you simply cannot be in a battlefor the highest of all stakes, with, therefore, the greatest of risks attachedto it without huge excitement being stirred up in you. That is human nature,and that excitement will inevitably focus on what decides the outcome of thebattle. Whenever impure thoughts came to the young man, therefore, great excitementovercame him at the same time. What must be the result? The sinful nature had afield day; he became swamped by lust and believed he was condemned.
You see, friend, there is no faith in fear,and there is no victory unless the truth of the Gospel is followed. If thatyoung man had looked to Jesus and trusted that He died for his sins whenimproper thoughts came over him, those thoughts would have never posed anygreat risk or danger, would they? Huge excitement would, therefore, have neverovercome him where lust (or coveting) was concerned. There would have been nohigh stakes battle concerning lust. The problem is the young man did not standon a justification of faith in Christ, but one of works of the law (ceasinglust), for lust is breaking the law of God. Let us not forget, as well, had theyoung man looked to Jesus and trusted that He atoned for his sins, rather thantrying to be justified before God by works of the law, he could not, and wouldnot have used that as a licence to sin, for he desperately wanted to be free ofthe sin in his heart. That would not change if he had looked to Christ andstood by faith in Him. He would still have hated the sin and wanted to be freeof it, but he would not have let the sin condemn him.
Now we can say the young man would havefelt alive before the law came to him because there was no condemnation then,but once it did come, sin (consciousness) sprang to life in him and he diedspiritually. The commandment he believed would give him life if he obeyed it,instead brought death (condemnation), for he could not keep it. Sin, throughthe commandment, slew him, and yet he knew the law itself was holy, just, andgood. He (his sin) was the problem, not the good and holy laws of God.
Now, friend, listen to the words of Paul inRomans 7:9-13. He is speaking of a time the law came to him when he came of ageto make a commitment to God. This would have been before his conversion toChristianity, therefore:

Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came,sin (consciousness) sprang to life and I died. [SUP] [/SUP]Ifound that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actuallybrought death. [SUP] [/SUP]For sin, seizing theopportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through thecommandment put me to death. [SUP] [/SUP]So then,the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.
[SUP] [/SUP]Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means!Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what isgood to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might becomeutterly sinful. (NIV)

You see, , Paul the Pharisee, and theyoung man both had something in common. They both believed they had to be goodenough for God. Because that is what they believed, they were slain by sinaccording to the law’s requirements.

 

[michael56]

Yes, but it was not the penalty that enticed him. It was the idea of stealing itself in spite of the penalty.

Then why did Paul say:

For sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace Rom 6:14

And why did he say, sinful passions are aroused in you by the law if you live under it

If you live under a law of righteousness, the penalty for sin remains, if you have a righteousness apart from the law, it does not

 

[oldhermit]

Then why did Paul say:

For sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace Rom 6:14

And why did he say, sinful passions are aroused in you by the law if you live under it

What he NEVER says in any of this is that it was the penalty of the law that aroused those sinful passions. I do not know where you are getting this but it is certainly not from anything Paul or any other biblical writer ever said.

 

[michael56]

What he NEVER says in any of this is that it was the penalty of the law that aroused those sinful passions. I do not know where you are getting this but it is certainly not from anything Paul or any other biblical writer ever said.

Paul says the power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56

What is it about the law that is the power of sin? The commandment itself, or the penalty attached for breaking it. Through that penalty sin has the power to condemn you to hell

 

[michael56]

What he NEVER says in any of this is that it was the penalty of the law that aroused those sinful passions. I do not know where you are getting this but it is certainly not from anything Paul or any other biblical writer ever said.

Why in your opinion are sinful passions aroused by the law in people who live under the law, but not in those who don't

 

[oldhermit]

Paul says the power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56

What is it about the law that is the power of sin? The commandment itself, or the penalty attached for breaking it. Through that penalty sin has the power to condemn you to hell

Yes, but NOT to entice us to the sin. What you are advocating is utter nonsense.

 

[michael56]

Yes but NOT to entice us to the sin. What you are advocating in utter nonsense.

For when we were in the realm of the flesh,[SUP][a][/SUP] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. Rom 7:5

 

[oldhermit]

For when we were in the realm of the flesh,[SUP][a][/SUP] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. Rom 7:5

You are really not getting the point are you? Yes, the law aroused the sinful passions. Why, because the Law said do not steal. What did prohibition this immediately do? It put the idea into the mind of a person to steal. It creates the temptation to steal. It was NOT the penalty of the Law that created the passion for the action. The penalty was given to PROHIBIT the behavior, not to entice the behavior.

 

[michael56]

You are really not getting the point are you? Yes, the law aroused the sinful passions. Why, because the Law said do not steal. What did prohibition this immediately do? It put the idea into the mind of a person to steal. It creates the temptation to steal. It was NOT the penalty of the Law that created the passion for the action. The penalty was given to PROHIBIT the behavior, not to entice the behavior.

Does thou shalt not steal still apply under the new covenant? Yes it does, it is a law placed on the heart and written on the mind of the convert. Therefore, do you believe the law arouses sinful passions for the Christian? You must according to your belief. The law has not gone away, only the punishment has for breaking it for the born again Christian.

Paul is specific, sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace. I can only repeat, the law stands God desires you to keep under grace, it has not gone away. So why will sin not be your master for you are not under law but under grace? The only thing that has changed is the
penalty for breaking the law is removed. So no, I do not get your point

 

[oldhermit]

Does thou shalt not steal still apply under the new covenant? Yes it does, it is a law placed on the heart and written on the mind of the convert. Therefore, do you believe the law arouses sinful passions for the Christian? You must according to your belief. The law has not gone away, only the punishment has for breaking it for the born again Christian.

Paul is specific, sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace. I can only repeat, the law stands God desires you to keep under grace, it has not gone away. So why will sin not be your master for you are not under law but under grace? The only thing that has changed is the
penalty for breaking the law is removed. So no, I do not get your point

I think you are confused abut the difference between the fundamental principles of the Law (the 10 commandments) and the ordinances and regulations of the Law (everything else in the Law).

 

[michael56]

I think you are confused abut the difference between the fundamental principles of the Law (the 10 commandments) and the ordinances and regulations of the Law (everything else in the Law).

I am not confused at all. In Romans 7:7-11 Paul gave an example of why he had to die to a law of righteousness. The example he gave was ''Thou shalt not covet'' One of the Ten Commandments. So the penalty of sin has been paid for all the law, not just some of it

 

[oldhermit]

I am not confused at all. In Romans 7:7-11 Paul gave an example of why he had to die to a law of righteousness. The example he gave was ''Thou shalt not covet'' One of the Ten Commandments. So the penalty of sin has been paid for all the law, not just some of it

I have to run for now but will be back later this evening. I do want to continue this.

 

[michael56]

I have to run for now but will be back later this evening. I do want to continue this.

OK, but I may have gone to bed by then, but will respond to your points tomorrow

God Bless

 

[Elin]

Does thou shalt not steal still apply under the new covenant? Yes it does, it is a law placed on the heart and written on the mind of the convert. Therefore, do you believe the law arouses sinful passions for the Christian? You must according to your belief. The law has not gone away, only the punishment has for breaking it for the born again Christian.

No, removal of the penalty for breaking the law is not the only thing that has changed.
A much mightier change has taken place--the new nature, which gives one a new disposition,
one now has another desire. He is not so enamored of sin as he once was.
He now desires to come against it, and in the Holy Spirit he is enabled to do so.

Writing the law in the mind and on the heart is a change of disposition.

That is the change which removes sin as your master.

 

[michael56]

No, removal of the penalty for breaking the law is not the only thing that has changed.
A much mightier change has taken place--the new nature, which gives one a new disposition,
one now has another desire. He is not so enamored of sin as he once was.
He now desires to come against it, and in the Holy Spirit he is enabled to do so.

Writing the law in the mind and on the heart is a change of disposition.

That is the change which removes sin as your master.

I agree, in your heart you want to obey the law placed within you, but in your flesh you do not.

Kathryn Khulman said Jesus died to pay the penalty of your sin, and he died to break the power of sin, and the power of sin is the law

The law comes in two parts, the law itself to be obeyed, and the punishment attached for breaking ot. The former remains, the latter is removed for the Christian.

By a Christian not being under a law of righteousness before God, only the penalty of the law has been removed, the law you are required to keep remains intact on your heart and mind

Paul said

For sin shall not be your master, BECAUSE you are not under law(a law of righteousness) but under grace Rom 6:14

 

[crossnote]

Satan's first exaltation of himself was not the result of a threat from God (thus stirring fear)but a deliberate attempt at usurping God's position. Fallen man has this same nature and revolts at what is commanded by God as it is his nature now also.

 

[Elin]

I agree, in your heart you want to obey the law placed within you, but in your flesh you do not.

Kathryn Khulman said Jesus died to pay the penalty of your sin, and he died to break the power of sin, and the power of sin is the law

Why are you quoting Kathryn Khulman?

The law comes in two parts, the law itself to be obeyed, and the punishment attached for breaking ot. The former remains, the latter is removed for the Christian.

By a Christian not being under a law of righteousness before God, only the penalty of the law has been removed, the law you are required to keep remains intact on your heart and mind

Paul said

For sin shall not be your master, BECAUSE you are not under law(a law of righteousness) but under grace Rom 6:14

 

[Cassian]

They are actually opposites. But the greater reason is that Pen/Sub is not tenable with scripture.


It's like having a belief in the Trinity and Unitarianism at the same time.

then clearly you either really don't understand either, or you don't understand Christus Victor.