Attack of the Judaizers

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Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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This next reading is the origin of the ban on the Name of the Most High: Yahweh

Talmud - Mas. Sotah 38a
Another [Baraitha] taught: ‘On this wise ye shall bless the children of Israel’ — with the use of the Shem Hameforash.15 You say that it means with the Tetragrammaton; (Yahweh) but perhaps that is not so and a substituted name was used!16 There is a text to say: So shall they put My name17 — My name which is unique to Me. It is possible to think that [the Shem Hameforash was also used] in places outside the Temple; but it is stated here, ‘So shall they put My name’ and elsewhere it is stated: To put His name there18 — as in this latter passage it denotes in the Temple so also in the former passage it denotes in the Temple. R. Joshiah says: [This deduction] is unnecessary; behold it states: In every place where I cause My name to be remembered I will come unto thee.19 Can it enter your mind that every place is intended?20 But the text must be transposed thus: In every place where I will come unto thee and bless thee will I cause My name to be remembered; and where will I come unto thee and bless thee? In the Temple; there, in the Temple, will I cause My name to be remembered. Another [Baraitha] teaches: ‘On this wise ye shall bless the children of Israel’ — I have here only the children of Israel; whence is it that proselytes, women and enfranchised slaves [are included]? There is a text to state, Ye shall say unto them21 — i.e., to all of them.

"but perhaps that is not so and a substituted name was used,"
No Scripture says anything like this at all, a Rabbi comes along and says, " "but perhaps that is not so," and after that Yahweh's Name is hidden. However it is not that FOOLISH and innocent, as it was on purpose that this was contrived:

Yeremyah 23:26-27, "How long will this be in the heart of the prophets who prophesy lies? Yes, they are prophets of the deceit of their own minds; Who devise; plan and scheme, to cause My people to eforget My Name through their dreams, which they tell every man to his neighbor, just as their fathers have forgotten My Name for Baal; (Lord.)"

The Name YHWH was removed at least 6,828 times and replaced with LORD or GOD. You can tell where it was because ALL the letters are capital where YHWH was. The Masorites added vowel points to the Hebrew manuscripts (not in the "J" writings," (Called J (Y) for it's use of YHWH), but in the next oldest, the "E" writings (for it's use of Elohim). The vowel points replaced Yahweh's Name with Adonal = Lord and Elohim = God(s).It is forbidden by Yahweh to hide His Name by the way. However as we seen in the Talmud, to the Rabbis this is of no effect: "we pay no attention to a Heavenly Voice." Then we come to modern times when this false practice is still used, I have a Bible that says, quote: "this tradition is still used".

Mattithyah 15:2-3, "Why do Your disciples transgress the traditions of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat. But He answered, and said to them: And why do you transgress the Laws of Yahweh by your traditions?"

Talmud - Mas. Yoma 39b
His brethren [that year] the priests forbore to mention the Ineffable Name (Yahweh) in pronouncing the [priestly] blessing.4 Our Rabbis taught: During the last forty years before the destruction of the Temple the lot [‘For the Lord’] did not come up in the right hand; nor did the crimson-coloured strap become white/"

Numbers 6:23-27, "Speak to Aaron and his sons, saying; This is how you are to bless the children of Israyl. Say to them; YAHWEH BLESS YOU AND KEEP YOU. YAHWEH MAKE HIS FACE SHINE UPON YOU AND BE MERCIFUL TO YOU. YAHWEH LIFT UP HIS COUNTENANCE UPON YOU, AND GIVE YOU PEACE. So they will put MY NAME on the children of Israyl, and I will bless them."

This is the Command that the "priests forbore", all supposedly because that "Rabbi" said, "but perhaps that is not so." Note "nor did the crimson-coloured strap become white," this was the sign that thier sins were forgiven. Also the Talmud RECORDS that after they killed Yahshua, from that time until the destruction Bayith Yahweh (Solomon's Temple) the crimson colored strap NEVER turned white again.

Talmud - Mas. Sanhedrin 56a
THE WHOLE DAY [OF THE TRIAL] THE WITNESSES ARE EXAMINED BY MEANS OF A SUBSTITUTE FOR THE DIVINE NAME, THUS, ‘MAY JOSE SMITE JOSE.’1 WHEN THE TRIAL WAS FINISHED, THE ACCUSED WAS NOT EXECUTED ON THIS EVIDENCE, BUT ALL PERSONS WERE REMOVED [FROM COURT], AND THE CHIEF WITNESS WAS TOLD, ‘STATE LITERALLY WHAT YOU HEARD. THEREUPON HE DID SO, [USING THE DIVINE NAME]. THE JUDGES THEN AROSE AND RENT THEIR GARMENTS, WHICH RENT WAS NOT TO BE RESEWN. THE SECOND WITNESS STATED; I TOO HAVE HEARD THUS’ [BUT NOT UTTERING THE DIVINE NAME], AND THE THIRD SAYS: ‘I TOO HEARD THUS’. GEMARA. It has been taught: [The blasphemer is not punished] unless he ‘blesses’ the Name, by the Name2 From the verse, How shall I curse [Ekkob]5 whom God hath not cursed;6 whilst the formal prohibition is contained in the verse, thou shalt not revile God.7 But perhaps it means ‘to pierce,’8 as it is written, [So Jehoiada the priest took a chest,] and bored [wa-yikkob]9 a hole in the lid of it,10 the formal injunction against this being the verses, Ye shall destroy the names of them [idols] out of that place. Ye shall not do so unto the Lord your God?11 — The Name must be ‘blessed’ by the Name, which is absent here. But perhaps the text refers to the putting of two slips of parchment, each bearing the Divine Name, together, and piercing them both? — In that case one Name is pierced after the other.12 But perhaps it prohibits the engraving of the Divine Name on the Point of a knife and piercing therewith [the Divine Name written on a slip of parchment]? — In that case, the point of the knife pierces, not the Divine Name. But perhaps it refers to the pronunciation of the ineffable Name, as it is written, And Moses and Aaron took these men which are expressed [nikkebu]13 by their names;14 the formal prohibition being contained in the verse, Thou shalt fear the Lord thy God?15 — Firstly, the Name must be ‘blessed’ by the Name, which is absent here; and secondly, it is a prohibition in the form of a positive command, which is not deemed to be a prohibition at all.16 An alternative answer is this: The Writ saith, [And the Israelitish woman's son] blasphemed wa-yikkob17 [and cursed],18 proving that blasphemy [nokeb] denotes cursing. But perhaps it teaches that both offences must be perpetrated?19 You cannot think so, because it is written, Bring forth him that hath cursed,20 and not ‘him that hath blasphemed and cursed’, proving that one offence only is alluded to. Our Rabbis taught: [Any man that curseth his God, shall bear his sin.21 It would have been sufficient to say]..."
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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Judaizing the text again. . ."briefly" is not in the Greek.

And agreed. . .Paul clearly understands that the Ten Commandments are contained in (Ro 13:8, 9, 10)
the law of Christ (Mt 22:37-40; 1Co 9:21; Gal 6:2),

and does not subvert the law of Christ (Mt 22:37-40) with the Ten Commandments.
Mattithyah 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Shaul clearly understands what the Messiah means and explains it here:

Romans 13:9, "For the commandments: You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not bring false testimony, You shall not covet, and all other commandments are summed up in these Laws; namely: You must love your neighbor as yourself."
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
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Judaizing the text again. . ."briefly" is not in the Greek.

And agreed. . .Paul clearly understands that the Ten Commandments are contained in (Ro 13:8, 9, 10)
the law of Christ (Mt 22:37-40; 1Co 9:21; Gal 6:2),

and does not subvert the law of Christ (Mt 22:37-40) with the Ten Commandments.
So the very Ten Commandments that Christ Himself spoke from Mt. Sinai subvert His Law...

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

You are very fond of quoting this...

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

But you mean it as such...

Mat 22:40 On these two commandments do away with all the law and the prophets.

Yet Paul even says that they are simply a summary of the Ten Commandments...

Rom 13:9 For the commandments, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," "YOU SHALL NOT MURDER," "YOU SHALL NOT STEAL," "YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS," "YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." - NKJV

So a summary of something abolishes it? So if one summarizes the statements you have made, it abolishes them? One could only wish.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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And before you start saying Im wrong, you better argue with: The Anchor Bible Dictionary, The New Unger's Bible Dictionary, Eerdmans Dictionary of the Bible, Nelson's New Illustrated Bible Dictionary.

Yeremyah 23:26-27, "How long will this be in the heart of the prophets who prophesy lies? Yes, they are prophets of the deceit of their own minds plan and scheme, to cause My people to forget My Name through their dreams, which they tell every man to his neighbor, just as their fathers have forgotten My Name for Baal."

BAAL (DEITY) [Hebrew - baal] . Canaanite storm and fertility god. The name, which means “lord, ” is an epithet of the god Hadad (lit. “thunderer” ).
Now that is some serious Judaizing. . .guilt by association.

You are trying to weave Biblical truth from whole cloth.

No one disagrees with those facts, but they are absolutely irrelevant.

"Lord" means several things = master, owner, sir, emperor, king, title of respect or courtesy, and

peculiar to the Jews = Jehovah, adon, Adonay, Elohim.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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So the very Ten Commandments that Christ Himself spoke from Mt. Sinai subvert His Law...
Yes, when you reverse the order/relationship given between them by Christ in Mt 22:40.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
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Judaizing the text again. . ."briefly" is not in the Greek.

And agreed. . .Paul clearly understands that the Ten Commandments are contained in (Ro 13:8, 9, 10)
the law of Christ (Mt 22:37-40; 1Co 9:21; Gal 6:2),

and does not subvert the law of Christ (Mt 22:37-40) with the Ten Commandments.
Mattithyah 19:17-21, "But He said to him: Why do you question Me about righteousness? There is only One Who is the standard of perfection, and that is Yahweh; so if you would enter into life, keep the 1Laws of Yahweh. He then asked Yahshua; Which ones? Yahshua said: You shall not murder. you shall not ccommit adultery. You shall not steal. You shall not bear false testimony. Honor your father and mother, and; You shall love your neighbor as yourself. The young man said to Him; All these things I have kept from my youth up; what do I yet lack? Yahshua said to him: If you want to come to the perfection, go and sell of what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and you will be walking in Yahweh's ways, and following Me."
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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Now that is some serious Judaizing. . .guilt by association.

You are trying to weave Biblical truth from whole cloth.

No one disagrees with those facts, but they are absolutely irrelevant.

"Lord" means several things = master, owner, sir, emperor, king, title of respect or courtesy, and

peculiar to the Jews = Jehovah, adon, Adonay, Elohim.
Its not about what lord means it is about what Baal means. Baal means lord.

Adonai was NEVER in the original text in speaking of the Creator, it was forged in by the Masorites.

Slide14.jpg

And before you start saying Im wrong, you better argue with: The Anchor Bible Dictionary, The New Unger's Bible Dictionary, Eerdmans Dictionary of the Bible, Nelson's New Illustrated Bible Dictionary.

Yeremyah 23:26-27, "How long will this be in the heart of the prophets who prophesy lies? Yes, they are prophets of the deceit of their own minds plan and scheme, to cause My people to forget My Name through their dreams, which they tell every man to his neighbor, just as their fathers have forgotten My Name for Baal."

BAAL (DEITY) [Hebrew - baal] . Canaanite storm and fertility god. The name, which means “lord, ” is an epithet of the god Hadad (lit. “thunderer” ). Well-known from the OT, he is now extremely well-attested in the Ugaritic texts, in addition to being mentioned in other ancient texts.
Freedman, David Noel: The Anchor Bible Dictionary. New York : Doubleday, 1996, c1992, S. 1:546

BA´AL (ba'al; Heb. ba?al, “lord, possessor”).
1. A common name for god among the Phoenicians; also the name of their chief male god. See Gods, False.
Unger, Merrill Frederick ; Harrison, R. K. ; Vos, Howard Frederic ; Barber, Cyril J. ; Unger, Merrill Frederick: The New Unger's Bible Dictionary. Rev. and updated ed. Chicago : Moody Press, 1988


Baal (Heb. ba?al) DEITY
The Canaanite storm- and fertility-god. As an epithet for various West Semitic deities, especially Hadad, the name means “lord,” designating a legal state of ownership or social superiority. With the obvious exception of Yahweh, Baal is the most significant deity in the OT.
Freedman, David Noel ; Myers, Allen C. ; Beck, Astrid B.: Eerdmans Dictionary of the Bible. Grand Rapids, Mich. : W.B. Eerdmans, 2000


BAAL [BAY uhl] (lord, master) — the name of one or more false gods, a place, and two people in the Old Testament:
1. A fertility and nature god of the Canaanites and Phoenicians. Also see Gods, Pagan.
Youngblood, Ronald F. ; Bruce, F. F. ; Harrison, R. K. ; Thomas Nelson Publishers: Nelson's New Illustrated Bible Dictionary. Nashville : T. Nelson, 1995
 
Jan 19, 2013
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Elin said:
Now that is some serious Judaizing. . .guilt by association.

You are trying to weave Biblical truth from whole cloth.

No one disagrees with those facts, but they are absolutely irrelevant.

"Lord" means several things = master, owner, sir, emperor, king, title of respect or courtesy, and

peculiar to the Jews = Jehovah, adon, Adonay, Elohim.
Its not about what lord means it is about what Baal means. Baal means lord.
So?. . .it's irrelevant.

That is guilt by association.

To the Jew, "Lord" meant Jehovah, adon, Adonay, Elohim.

It matters not what Baal meant to the pagan.

Biblical faith is not governed by pagan beliefs.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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So?. . .it's irrelevant.

That is guilt by association.

To the Jew, "Lord" meant Jehovah, adon, Adonay, Elohim.

It matters not what Baal meant to the pagan.

Biblical faith is not governed by pagan beliefs.
What Baal means is important when Yahweh says evil has caused His people to forget His name for it.


Yeremyah 23:26-27, "How long will this be in the heart of the prophets who prophesy lies? Yes, they are prophets of the deceit of their own minds plan and scheme, to cause My people to forget My Name through their dreams, which they tell every man to his neighbor, just as their fathers have forgotten My Name for Baal."

And it just so happens to mean Lord..... and the Lord just so happens to be what Yahweh's name is replaced with 6,823 times in translation...

and to Jehoshaphat adonai did not mean Yahweh, this is clearly shown in 1 Kings 22:5-7 that I posted above.


 
Jan 19, 2013
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Elin said:
So?. . .it's irrelevant.

That is guilt by association.

To the Jew, "Lord" meant Jehovah, adon, Adonay, Elohim.

It matters not what Baal meant to the pagan
.
What Baal means is important when Yahweh says evil has
caused His people to forget His name for it.
Jer is referring to a specific situation in the history of the Jews.

So let's look at that.

Yeremyah 23:26-27, "How long will this be in the heart of the prophets who prophesy lies? Yes, they are prophets of the deceit of their own minds plan and scheme, to cause My people to forget My Name through their dreams, which they tell every man to his neighbor, just as their fathers have forgotten My Name for Baal."
Jeremiah is referring to the rebellion of Judah wherein she flagrantly broke God's law and
violated the Sinaitic covenant by prostituting herself (Jer 2:20) in running after pagan gods (Jer 2:23).

To "forget my name" is to forget God himself, his law, his covenant,
it's not to forget the word "Yahweh."

And for forgetting God himself, his law and covenant, Judah was exiled to Babylon.

However, there was a return from Babylon, and a restoration of the walls of Jerusalem, the Temple and the word of God.

Jer 23:26-27 does not refer to anything after the return from exile and restoration.

Your Judaizing mindset combs the OT for ways to Judaize the NT,
and in the process misunderstands and misuses the OT to do so.
 
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Oct 31, 2011
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RedTent, I was hoping for further instruction from you about the OT.

I think you must have missed my question. Thank you!
:)
If you are serious about actually wanting to know what I think scripture is telling us, actually? In the first place the word law in scripture would be better translated instructions, and God would not instruct anyone who denied him, just to start. God never meant any of the law to be for salvation, so when you say "under the law" you would have to clarify if you mean that in the sense of the anti law people mean it, meaning if they should listen to the instructions from God or not. God means it as being under law for salvation, as those who do not acknowledge God are, or under the grace that God offers to those who listen to Him.

Next, you would need to know the purpose for the rituals that God gave, not as law like "you will not have salvation available if you don't do this" but as something beneficial for them to use. The rituals guided to spiritual law. Spiritual law is how our world works. It is sort of like telling us the way the currents in a river run, you get further working with how things are and how the current of the river is. Food laws guided to understanding cleanliness and living apart from idolitors. Circumcision was a reminder to put off the physical as most important. When we receive the Holy Spirit, we are to use that as a reminder.

So the question of the law that Melchizedek was under itself, shows a lack of understanding of Mosaic and Leviticus law.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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Jer is referring to a specific situation in the history of the Jews.

So let's look at that.


Jeremiah is referring to the rebellion of Judah wherein she flagrantly broke God's law and
violated the Sinaitic covenant by prostituting herself (Jer 2:20) in running after pagan gods (Jer 2:23).

To "forget my name" is to forget God himself, his law, his covenant,
it's not to forget the word "Yahweh."

And for forgetting God himself, his law and covenant, Judah was exiled to Babylon.

However, there was a return from Babylon, and a restoration of the walls of Jerusalem, the Temple and the word of God.

Jer 23:26-27 does not refer to anything after the return from exile and restoration.

Your Judaizing mindset combs the OT for ways to Judaize the NT,
and in the process misunderstands and misuses the OT to do so.
I agree, Israylites called Yahweh Baal. literally, but modern teaching does the same, replaces His name with Lord. We cant point our fingers at them and not have 4 fingers pointing back at ourselves.
 
Oct 31, 2011
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Your Judaizing mindset combs the OT for ways to Judaize the NT,
and in the process misunderstands and misuses the OT to do so.
I think "Judaizing mindset" is out of line as a judgment for listening to what God says about rituals as part of understanding what Paul has to say about them.

We could talk about your mindset against anything you label as Judaizing in the extremities you are taking it. Our mindset is open to all of God's words, your mindset is to be in opposition to some of God's words, and allows you to choose, not allowing God to choose. Nor allowing Paul to explain.
 
Sep 1, 2013
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When Paul used this term, Paul was talking about making rituals necessary to becoming Christian...
So Judaization involves making rituals without which one cannot be saved. So Jesus Christ commanded His disciples to go out into all the world to create rituals derived from the old covenant by which men could be saved.

You have just explained your beliefs and the beliefs of those like you in a nutshell.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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Elin said:
Jer is referring to a specific situation in the history of the Jews.

So let's look at that.

Jeremiah is referring to the rebellion of Judah wherein she flagrantly broke God's law and
violated the Sinaitic covenant by prostituting herself (Jer 2:20) in running after pagan gods (Jer 2:23).

To "forget my name" is to forget God himself, his law, his covenant,
it's not to forget the word "Yahweh."

And for forgetting God himself, his law and covenant, Judah was exiled to Babylon.

However, there was a return from Babylon, and a restoration of the walls of Jerusalem, the Temple and the word of God.

Jer 23:26-27 does not refer to anything after the return from exile and restoration.

Your Judaizing mindset combs the OT for ways to Judaize the NT,
and in the process misunderstands and misuses the OT to do so.
I agree,

Israylites called Yahweh Baal. literally,
Can you show in Scripture where they actually did that?

but modern teaching does the same, replaces His name with Lord.
And the fact that you use a text, which does not mean that Jews forgot the word "Yahweh,"

nor does it even apply now after the exile,

to demonstrate that using the word "Lord" is to forget the name of God

is not incongruent to you?

You show that your hermeneutic is based in incongruity.
 
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danschance

Guest
You say all God gave Moses as instructions for our living (translated as law in English) is obsolete, and now you claim the churches are teaching from the OT. Moses is in the OT.
That is not exactly what I have said. I said the ceremonial laws of the Mosaic covenant are obsolete for the NT believer. The ceremonial laws, Christ has or will fulfill them. We are now under the law of Christ which are moral laws. Churches do teach from the bible, both old and new testaments. In general, they do not teach the heresies or the false gospel of the Judaizers (Sacred name movement, Hebrew roots movement, etc.). That is what I have said.
 
J

jahsoul

Guest
See Hos 2:16 "And it shall be at that day, saith YHVH, that thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali."
I said that I wasn't going to respond to this thread but I've always read that as a reprimand; like God never wanted to be called Baali and he will remove all things Baal.... *shrugs and exits*
 
D

danschance

Guest
So you say that when God told the Hebrews to do physical circumcision to represent the spiritual required, God was telling the Hebrews to mutilate the foreskin?
Paul calls it mutilation and that is why I call it mutilation.
12 I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves. Gal 5:12 NASB
Thayers Greek lexicon states this is mutilation also. Also the dictionary states:
1. To deprive of a limb or an essential part; cripple.
2. To disfigure by damaging irreparably: mutilate a statue.
3. To make imperfect by excising or altering parts.


Please note definition 3 above. Removal of the foreskin is mutilation, especially when it is done for no reason at all. The gentiles converts should never of been circumcised. I am not calling all circumcision mutilation, just the type of Circumcision done on gentiles today for no medical or no valid religious reason. Yes, that is certainly mutilation.
 
Oct 31, 2011
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So Judaization involves making rituals without which one cannot be saved. So Jesus Christ commanded His disciples to go out into all the world to create rituals derived from the old covenant by which men could be saved.

You have just explained your beliefs and the beliefs of those like you in a nutshell.
For you to say that Judaization is making rituals without which one cannot be saved is a terrible thing to say about God's instructions to us. When Paul gives us so many words explaining this is not so, you have no business saying all Paul tells us must be ignored, just as it is not right to say the instructions God gives us is to be ignored. Please go to scripture and believe it before you post what is against scripture.