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Simply not true. No one has said do not read the scriptures. That is an exaggeration on your part.
You really need to read the bible. Paul fought with Judaizers who claimed the gentile converts needed to be circumcised. Even on this thread we had one man claim we need to be circumcised even though that is contrary to the NT.[/QUOTE]
I have not said who is or who is not saved. Only God knows that. Are you claiming Paul was of the antichrist? He spoke against the Judaizers.
You really need to read the bible. Paul fought with Judaizers who claimed the gentile converts needed to be circumcised. Even on this thread we had one man claim we need to be circumcised even though that is contrary to the NT.[/QUOTE]
I have not said who is or who is not saved. Only God knows that. Are you claiming Paul was of the antichrist? He spoke against the Judaizers.
I have not said who is or who is not saved. Only God knows that. Are you claiming Paul was of the antichrist? He spoke against the Judaizers.[/QUOTE]
to back this up , this is after God start dealing with the gentiles and the Jews had a discussion with the apostles weather the gentiles should keep the law of Moses or not and this is what the apostles told them, but hey they won't accept it anyways goood and ignoring stuff
[h=3]Acts 15[/h]King James Version (KJV)
15 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
I teach circumcision!
Deu 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Deu 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
we were speaking of physical circumcision, and my guess if you know that. 
Deu 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
We are saved by Grace through faith as a gift from God.
When someone says you must do this law or you must do that ritual they are saying that His Grace and His Gift is not enough. They are saying it is ok to reject His Grace, and go about establishing their own righteousness apart from the Lord Jesus Christ, usually in some small way... at first.
Using rituals doesn't lead to spiritual truths. Using rituals leads to more using of rituals.
The Lord Jesus Christ leads us into Spiritual Truth and only the Lord Jesus Christ. That is why this issue is so important.
Judaizers reject Grace and they don't even know it.
Behold, I place before you the blessing and the curse. If you can be perfect according to the law, you are blessed. If not, the curse. Well, none of us were able to do it. We need a Saviour. We need His Grace.
Now we have people saying that the Lord Jesus Christ is not enough. Just like 2000 yrs ago. But that the law must be kept as well. The truth is that you can't keep the law. Only the perfectly spiritual man can keep the law and He was already here and was crucified. There is and was only one that was perfectly spiritual. We must trust in His Work that He has done for us. We must see that we must come out of the shadow and into His Great Light.
The error of judaizers is that they think if someone turns away from rituals and the law and towards His Grace Alone that they are free to sin all they want. That is not the case. The truth is that the person who is trying to obey the law in their own will and strength is the one in whom sin abounds. The only chance for us to even come close to His Perfection is to constantly behold Him, and His Grae and Mercy. The Law and rituals are supposed to get you to understand that.
When someone says you must do this law or you must do that ritual they are saying that His Grace and His Gift is not enough. They are saying it is ok to reject His Grace, and go about establishing their own righteousness apart from the Lord Jesus Christ, usually in some small way... at first.
Using rituals doesn't lead to spiritual truths. Using rituals leads to more using of rituals.
The Lord Jesus Christ leads us into Spiritual Truth and only the Lord Jesus Christ. That is why this issue is so important.
Judaizers reject Grace and they don't even know it.
Behold, I place before you the blessing and the curse. If you can be perfect according to the law, you are blessed. If not, the curse. Well, none of us were able to do it. We need a Saviour. We need His Grace.
Now we have people saying that the Lord Jesus Christ is not enough. Just like 2000 yrs ago. But that the law must be kept as well. The truth is that you can't keep the law. Only the perfectly spiritual man can keep the law and He was already here and was crucified. There is and was only one that was perfectly spiritual. We must trust in His Work that He has done for us. We must see that we must come out of the shadow and into His Great Light.
The error of judaizers is that they think if someone turns away from rituals and the law and towards His Grace Alone that they are free to sin all they want. That is not the case. The truth is that the person who is trying to obey the law in their own will and strength is the one in whom sin abounds. The only chance for us to even come close to His Perfection is to constantly behold Him, and His Grae and Mercy. The Law and rituals are supposed to get you to understand that.
how can someone just sin freely when the seed of God is within them? this is what they don't understand and God forbid.. they would never understand lest they stop being wise in their own conceit
[h=3]1 John 3:8-9[/h]King James Version (KJV)
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
this has 2 meaning to it, but if the Seed of God is within the born again believer it's almost impossible for them to continue sinning, we had no choice but to Sin without christ because we were born in Sin, but now being born of God we are born in the image of his righteousness
[h=3]1 John 3:8-9[/h]King James Version (KJV)
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
this has 2 meaning to it, but if the Seed of God is within the born again believer it's almost impossible for them to continue sinning, we had no choice but to Sin without christ because we were born in Sin, but now being born of God we are born in the image of his righteousness
Paul had Timothy circumcised:
Acts 16:1-3 (NASB)
1 Paul came also to Derbe and to Lystra. And a disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a Jewish woman who was a believer, but his father was a Greek, 2 and he was well spoken of by the brethren who were in Lystra and Iconium. 3 Paul wanted this man to go with him; and he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in those parts, for they all knew that his father was a Greek.
Numbers 15:15-16, "One ordinance shall be for you of the congregation, and for the stranger who sojourns with you, as an ordinance forever throughout your generations. As you are, so shall the stranger be in front of Yahweh. One Law and one manner shall be for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you."
Romans 9:6-8, "However, it is not as though Yahweh's plan had failed. For it is not everyone who is a descendant of Israyl who belongs to Israyl. Nor, just because they are his descendants, are they all Abraham's children; but: In Isaac will your seed be called. That is, it is not those who are the children of the flesh who are Yahweh's children; but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's seed."
Acts 16:1-3 (NASB)
1 Paul came also to Derbe and to Lystra. And a disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a Jewish woman who was a believer, but his father was a Greek, 2 and he was well spoken of by the brethren who were in Lystra and Iconium. 3 Paul wanted this man to go with him; and he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in those parts, for they all knew that his father was a Greek.
Numbers 15:15-16, "One ordinance shall be for you of the congregation, and for the stranger who sojourns with you, as an ordinance forever throughout your generations. As you are, so shall the stranger be in front of Yahweh. One Law and one manner shall be for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you."
Romans 9:6-8, "However, it is not as though Yahweh's plan had failed. For it is not everyone who is a descendant of Israyl who belongs to Israyl. Nor, just because they are his descendants, are they all Abraham's children; but: In Isaac will your seed be called. That is, it is not those who are the children of the flesh who are Yahweh's children; but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's seed."
***sarcasm alert***What a disgusting thing for Paul to do. If I were you Dan, I wouldn't follow him anymore, he is barbaric.***end sarcasm alert***
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Are you both claiming we should all, Jew and Gentile be circumcised?
Yes Timothy was circumcised so his un-circumcision would not be a hindrance for the gospel. His circumcision means nothing for the NT believer as the above verses clearly show. Paul claimed those who want to circumcise believers are "evil doers". Yet I am disappointed that I felt the need to post scriptures on circumcision as I had assumed this was common knowledge that our circumcision is of the inward heart, not of the penis. It is sad that there is no level some will sink to justify their foolish ideas.
For those who are enamored of circumcision. Go watch a circumcision on YouTube and see if you think it is a good thing. Dr Dean Edel has for years been against this medically useless procedure and he even has called it barbaric.
Yes Timothy was circumcised so his un-circumcision would not be a hindrance for the gospel. His circumcision means nothing for the NT believer as the above verses clearly show. Paul claimed those who want to circumcise believers are "evil doers". Yet I am disappointed that I felt the need to post scriptures on circumcision as I had assumed this was common knowledge that our circumcision is of the inward heart, not of the penis. It is sad that there is no level some will sink to justify their foolish ideas.
For those who are enamored of circumcision. Go watch a circumcision on YouTube and see if you think it is a good thing. Dr Dean Edel has for years been against this medically useless procedure and he even has called it barbaric.
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Yeremyah 9:23-25, "This is what Yahweh says: Let not the wise glory in their wisdom, let not the mighty glory in their power, let not the rich glory in their riches; But let those who glory, glorify in this--that he understands and knows Me, that I am Yahweh Who exercises lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness in the earth; for in this I delight, says Yahweh. Behold, the days come, says Yahweh: that I will punish all those who are circumcised only physically, in their foreskins."
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I am not a squeamish man. I hunt and fish. I have field dressed large and small game (remove the guts, lungs and windpipe.), removed hides, gutted fish and even strangled wounded fowl with my bare hands to put them out of their misery (they die very fast when suffocated).
Yet I consider circumcision on babies for non-religous reasons to be utterly barbaric. The foreskin is very sensitive being full of nerves and vascular tissue. It is not useless but is protective. The procedure is often done without pain meds when done on babies. Why Christians do this to their own children is mind boggling. Circumcision is not without risks. There have been males who have lost the head of their penis from this. The wound gets urinated on causing more pain and risking infection. It should be outlawed except for Jews only.
Yet I consider circumcision on babies for non-religous reasons to be utterly barbaric. The foreskin is very sensitive being full of nerves and vascular tissue. It is not useless but is protective. The procedure is often done without pain meds when done on babies. Why Christians do this to their own children is mind boggling. Circumcision is not without risks. There have been males who have lost the head of their penis from this. The wound gets urinated on causing more pain and risking infection. It should be outlawed except for Jews only.
"And a disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a Jewish woman who was a believer, but his father was a Greek" Acts 16:1
This makes it very clear that Timothy was JEWISH! And he needed to be accepted by Jews. The lineage for Jews comes through the mother. Paul wanted him to keep his Jewish heritage. He did not circumcise him so he would be righteous or saved.
Personally, I agree with Dan that circumcision is barbaric if not required. When my male children were babies, it was the normal thing to circumcise them. I did it, and cried and hated it for each one. I heard them screaming, tied down with no pain killers. If I had it to do over, it would not happen. I am proud my sons chose to not circumcise their sons. Horrible practice, unless God commands it!
This makes it very clear that Timothy was JEWISH! And he needed to be accepted by Jews. The lineage for Jews comes through the mother. Paul wanted him to keep his Jewish heritage. He did not circumcise him so he would be righteous or saved.
Personally, I agree with Dan that circumcision is barbaric if not required. When my male children were babies, it was the normal thing to circumcise them. I did it, and cried and hated it for each one. I heard them screaming, tied down with no pain killers. If I had it to do over, it would not happen. I am proud my sons chose to not circumcise their sons. Horrible practice, unless God commands it!