Attacks on the Rapture: a popular pastime among some Christians

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
22,549
8,105
113
Good day, Scribe!

The only protection that I see is the woman/Israel who is cared for by God out in the wilderness during the last 3 1/2 years.

The 144,000 out of Israel are excluded from the torment of the 5th trumpet

The great tribulation saints however, are exposed to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as described below:

"Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat down on them,’ nor any scorching heat."

The reference above to 'they will never thirst again' is referring to when the 2nd and 3rd bowls are poured out which turns the ocean and the rivers and springs of water into blood.

And the reference to 'never again will they hunger' is in reference to the 3rd seal rider on the black horse which is world-wide famine.

And the reference to 'The sun will not beat down on them,’ nor any scorching heat' is referring to the 4th bowl where the angel pours out his bowl on the sun and it scorches the inhabitants of the earth with intense heat, searing them.

Suffice to say, being on the earth during the time of God's wrath for anyone, would not be desirable to say the least.

We also have the following scripture regarding the great tribulation saints:

"Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them, and he was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation."

The majority of these saints who will be present during the great tribulation will be killed either by beheading or some other way. However, some do survive until the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. These will go into the millennial kingdom to repopulate the earth, along with the remnant of Israel who will have been cared for out in the wilderness.
I am assuming that since there is explicit indication that the 144,000 are excluded from the fifth trumpet judgment, they are also excluded from the first four, and the following the judgments.
And the two witnesses enjoy divine protection in the sense that they have a divine offensive capabilities. All attacks on the two witnesses fail until such time is God allows them to be killed.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,495
113
The only people that are divinely protected are the 144,000 and the two witnesses.
The tribulation saints are for the most part slaughtered.....No divine protection there.
The Church of course has been raptured as can be seen in chapters 4 and 5. They are encountered again at the marriage supper of the Lamb. The very specific class of tribulation saints are resurrected in chapter 20 and rule with Christ for a thousand years.
Once upon a time, in the far away land of Darby & Scofield :)
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
22,549
8,105
113
I do believe it is a display of God's wrath upon closer inspection of the scriptures you provided, but still don't think that's a good enough reason to believe in a pre-trib rapture. The wrath isn't for Christians, though they will be persecuted during the great tribulation, meaning Christians will here for it.

"Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." Revelation 20:4

As far as I can tell that's consistent with the rest of scripture on the topic.
When you have time conduct a study of the "tribulation saints". In doing so you will find out that at the time of the tribulation there are only Jews and gentiles remaining on earth. Any converts at that time are the tribulation saints.
 
Sep 14, 2019
258
64
28
1. The Rapture has been presented by Christ as being IMMINENT, not tied to any other prophetic event.
Doesn't 2 Thess 2 tell us that this day will not take place until the falling away and the man of lawlessness is revealed. So the rapture is tied to these prophetic events. The falling away has occurred but the man of lawlessness has not yet been revealed. Right?
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,495
113
I do believe it is a display of God's wrath upon closer inspection of the scriptures you provided, but still don't think that's a good enough reason to believe in a pre-trib rapture. The wrath isn't for Christians, though they will be persecuted during the great tribulation, meaning Christians will here for it.

"Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." Revelation 20:4

As far as I can tell that's consistent with the rest of scripture on the topic.
God's divine protection and promise during the tribulation.

If they try to jail or kill, in return they will be jailed killed?

Open your ears to God's protection!

This is the patience of the Church during the tribulation.

Revelation 13:9-10KJV
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

The final hours of earth's temptation, the Church is instructed to enter their dwellings until the indignation of wrath is past, just like the Passover in Egypt.

Isaiah 25:119-21KJV
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
22,549
8,105
113
Doesn't 2 Thess 2 tell us that this day will not take place until the falling away and the man of lawlessness is revealed. So the rapture is tied to these prophetic events. The falling away has occurred but the man of lawlessness has not yet been revealed. Right?
By a "falling away" you actually mean "the departure" correct? Because when you understand this fact, the confusion of that verse disappears. This link will help but I suggest a very thorough study of this matter because there is much written about it and I agree that "the departure" is definitely the correct interpretation in context.

https://www.pre-trib.org/articles/all-articles/message/the-departure-in-2-thessalonians-2-3/read
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,495
113
By a "falling away" you actually mean "the departure" correct? Because when you understand this fact, the confusion of that verse disappears. This link will help but I suggest a very thorough study of this matter because there is much written about it and I agree that "the departure" is definitely the correct interpretation in context.

https://www.pre-trib.org/articles/all-articles/message/the-departure-in-2-thessalonians-2-3/read
No the Greek word (Apostasia) for (Apostasy) dosent mean the (Departure) of the Church to heaven in your claimed (Rapture)

This is a false teaching of Dallas Theological Cemetary, in Thomas Ice.
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,691
113
God's divine protection and promise during the tribulation.

If they try to jail or kill, in return they will be jailed killed?

Open your ears to God's protection!

This is the patience of the Church during the tribulation.

Revelation 13:9-10KJV
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

The final hours of earth's temptation, the Church is instructed to enter their dwellings until the indignation of wrath is past, just like the Passover in Egypt.

Isaiah 25:119-21KJV
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
There's going to be a lot of wrath going around, a lot of persecution. Some will be protected, some won't. It'll be a great tribulation.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,495
113
Doesn't 2 Thess 2 tell us that this day will not take place until the falling away and the man of lawlessness is revealed. So the rapture is tied to these prophetic events. The falling away has occurred but the man of lawlessness has not yet been revealed. Right?
Yes (2) conditions must be met

1.) Apostasy of the once professing Church

2.) The Man Of Sin Revealed, to a church present on earth.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,873
2,111
113
By a "falling away" you actually mean "the departure" correct? Because when you understand this fact, the confusion of that verse disappears. This link will help but I suggest a very thorough study of this matter because there is much written about it and I agree that "the departure" is definitely the correct interpretation in context.
https://www.pre-trib.org/articles/all-articles/message/the-departure-in-2-thessalonians-2-3/read
Right.

V.3 "...that day [the 'time-period' from the immediately-preceding verse 2] will not be present if not shall have come the departure FIRST, and [distinctly] the man of sin be revealed..."


...and verse 2 was speaking of the earthly "time-period" we call "the [7-yr] trib," aka the "IN THE NIGHT" time period [with its "man of sin" and JUDGMENTS unfolding upon the earth] that leads UP TO Christ's Second Coming to the earth, i.e. His "RETURN" Rev19.





[this SEQUENCE is repeated 3x in this text of 2Th2:3-9a---> "the departure FIRST" before "the DOTL" time-period can be present to unfold upon the earth with its JUDGMENTS and "man of sin" (SAME SEQUENCE as was shown in 1Th4-5)]
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,495
113
There's going to be a lot of wrath going around, a lot of persecution. Some will be protected, some won't. It'll be a great tribulation.
You will closely note that the plagues "Specifically" are brought upon the Beast and His Kingdom/Followers.

You will closely note, the "Two Witnesses" in Rev 11 below control all plagues coming on earth, the good guys pitching for "Team Jesus"!

Revelation 16 King James Version (KJV)
16 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

"ALL PLAGUES AS OFTEN AS THEY WILL"!

Revelation 11:3-6KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
22,549
8,105
113
Right.

V.3 "...that day [the 'time-period' from the immediately-preceding verse 2] will not be present if not shall have come the departure FIRST, and [distinctly] the man of sin be revealed..."


...and verse 2 was speaking of the earthly "time-period" we call "the [7-yr] trib," aka the "IN THE NIGHT" time period [with its "man of sin" and JUDGMENTS unfolding upon the earth] that leads UP TO Christ's Second Coming to the earth, i.e. His "RETURN" Rev19.





[this SEQUENCE is repeated 3x in this text of 2Th2:3-9a---> "the departure FIRST" before "the DOTL" time-period can be present to unfold upon the earth with its JUDGMENTS and "man of sin" (SAME SEQUENCE as was shown in 1Th4-5)]
That's the way I see it. Clear as a bell.
 
Sep 14, 2019
258
64
28
Hello RevelationMan!

Regarding you claim above about "being 'changed' right now," please consider the what the scripture says about this:

"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet."

Who = We (living believers)

What = Changed (immortal and glorified)

When = In an instant, in the twinkling of an eye

Therefore, the 'change' that believers will experience, will be instantaneous and not over a period of time. It is not the same kind of change as when we are transformed into the image of Christ, which is a life-long process. But the word describing how quickly the change that will take place when the Lord appears is the word 'atomos' which is defined as follows:

823 átomos (from 1 /A "not" and 5114 /tomṓteros, "to cut") – properly, not able to cut (divide) because too small to be measured, like a "split second"; an "instant; an indivisible moment of time, too short to measure".

Therefore, since the change takes place in an instant, believers cannot be in the process of being changed over time, but will be an event that will take place before you can blink, in a moment. When the Lord appears, the bodies of those in Christ who are still alive, their bodies will change instantly from our mortal decaying bodies, to immortal and glorified.

Just tryin' to get you to understand what takes place at this event and we must stick to the scripture in order to do so.

To be clear, when the Lord appears, the bodies of living believers will be transformed taking on immortality and glorification in an instant. That is going to be one amazing feeling to say the least!
i agree with most of this but nowhere does it say that we are all changed at the same time...i believe it is the last trumpet and we are being changed right now but in each persons own time. Not all at the same time. We are getting ready to be "caught up" in the clouds.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
22,549
8,105
113
i agree with most of this but nowhere does it say that we are all changed at the same time...i believe it is the last trumpet and we are being changed right now but in each persons own time. Not all at the same time. We are getting ready to be "caught up" in the clouds.
Ahwatukee just laid it out for you in exquisite detail. Ever Church-age believer, instantaneously. No exceptions, no individuality.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,873
2,111
113
^ @iamsoandso ,

:) Consider the following:


From Gal1:8 , per BibleHub -

2. beside, beyond, i. e. metaphorically,

a. equivalent to contrary to: παρά τήν διδαχήν, Romans 16:17
[...]

παῥ ὁ, contrary to that which, i. e. at variance with that which, Galatians 1:8f



Gal1:8 - "[...preached unto you] contrary to [/at variance with] that which WE have preached unto you"

____________

[quoting Wm Kelly on Rev14, from BibleHub (my note: Matt25, when speaking of when they either will have AIDED/BLESSED "the least of these My brethren" or DID NOT do so, is referring to that which will take place on the earth FOLLOWING "our Rapture")]

"Another consideration perhaps may help some as connected with this and confirmatory of it, founded on the last part of Matthew 25, where all the nations are called up before the Son of Man when He sits as King on the throne of His glory. Surely this cannot be in heaven but on earth: how could "all the nations" be seen on high? It will be remembered that He tells those whom He designates as the "sheep" that, inasmuch as they did what they had done to His "brethren," it was really to Him; as on the other hand the insults fell on Him which were aimed at them. These acts of kindness, or of hostile indifference, will be owned by the Lord when He judges the quick [Matt25:31-34 context is about those "STILL-LIVING" at His "return" to the earth]. It is no use for people to call it the general judgment, or the judgment of our works. It has nothing to do with us who believe on Him now. The one principle before us in this scripture is His dealing with the living Gentiles, or all nations according to their ways with His brethren. To act aright then will require real power of God through grace. The pressure against His messengers at that time will be enormous. If any receive them well, it will be from faith, however small may be the measure of their faith. That to honour His brethren is virtually to honour Himself, they had not themselves known. When they stand in presence of the King, how astonished they are that He should regard what was done to the messengers of His gospel in the last days as if done to Himself! When men are raised from the dead, they know as they are known; but these are the nations alive in flesh. Compare Matthew 24:14.

"Certainly these Gentiles were wrought in by divine grace, yet evidently they are far from what is called "intelligent." How often must one beware of making too much of this! What a constant snare it is to slip into unconscious or inconsiderate criticism! Men are apt to give themselves an exaggerated importance on the score of their knowledge. God attaches a far higher value to the heed paid to the Lord Himself, and to those He sends out. It is a crucial test. Then [meaning, at that time] most of all it will be so, because these messages will go forth to the nations on the earth before the end comes. Growingly lifted up and self-satisfied, the nations are summoned by Jewish messengers (poor and contemptible in most eyes), who will solemnly proclaim the kingdom just at hand [again, see Matt24:14]; for the King is coming in person to judge the quick apart from and before the judgment of the dead. Some souls here and there will receive them [these messengers/servants], not only treating them in love, but this because they receive the message. The power of the Spirit alone gives them faith. None less than God Himself inclines their heart. Accordingly the Lord here refers to its reception, with the grace that accompanied it, as evidence of their heeding Himself in the persons of His brethren, the messengers.

"This is similar to, if not the same as, the everlasting gospel. It is called by Matthew the "gospel of the kingdom." The "gospel of the kingdom" and the "everlasting gospel" are substantially like. In the Revelation it is thus described, because it was always in the purpose of God, through the bruised Seed of the woman, to crush the foe and to bless man himself here below. This Matthew, in accordance with his design, calls rather the "gospel of the kingdom," because Christ is going to be King of a kingdom prepared from [apo] the foundation of the world. S. John, it would seem, calls it an "everlasting gospel," because it is in contrast with special messages from time to time (Hebrews 4:2), as well as with all that had to do with man as he is here below. At this most corrupt time [i.e. the tribulation period] the suited glad tidings will be sent forth, and certain souls will receive it by God's grace. Thus the second scene in the chapter is the proclamation of an everlasting gospel to those settled down on the earth, and to the nations, etc., as the first section was the separation of a remnant of Jews to the Lamb on mount Zion. Both point, as do other visions of the book, to the various operations of God's goodness, and to the different groups of blessing He will form. Is it incredible that God should thus work in honour of Christ the Lamb? How good is the God we adore!"

--William Kelly, Commentary on Revelation 14

[end quoting; bold, underline, and bracketed inserts mine]
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
9,382
5,721
113
People talk about a mid/post trib Resurrection/Rapture only because they have not fully understood what the Tribulation is all about and when it occurs. There cannot be a mid- or post- tribulation Rapture for many reasons:

1. The Rapture has been presented by Christ as being IMMINENT, not tied to any other prophetic event.

2. The Tribulation -- the first 3 1/2 years of Daniel's 70th week -- corresponds to the reign of the Antichrist on earth. And in order for Satan and the Antichrist to take TOTAL CONTROL of the inhabitants of the earth (all nations), the restraint on Satan by the Holy Spirit (the Restrainer) must be "taken out of the way". Since the Church (the Body of Christ) is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, the Church must also be taken out of the way.

3. The Rapture cannot possibly be post-tribulation for the simple reason that the Tribulation saints are all killed (beheaded) by the Antichrist (Rev 20) for refusing to take the Mark of the Beast. So there would be no one for a Rapture.


Since the Rapture must occur before the 7 years of the Tribulation/Great Tribulation, it would follow that the Marriage of the Lamb will be some time during that period. But according to Revelation 19, it would appear to be just before the Second Coming of Christ (the end of the Great Tribulation).
Thank you, I was wondering what your personal take on this was because views vary on it.
I didn't tell you my view. Since I asked you this, there have been 4 more pages of posts.

You interjected the other 3 points above. Which are yet another proclamation of the whole pre-tribulation theory.
When is the last time you looked at this with a fresh pair of eyes? All three points are easily unpacked false assumptions.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
22,549
8,105
113
Thank you, I was wondering what your personal take on this was because views vary on it.
I didn't tell you my view. Since I asked you this, there have been 4 more pages of posts.

You interjected the other 3 points above. Which are yet another proclamation of the whole pre-tribulation theory.
When is the last time you looked at this with a fresh pair of eyes? All three points are easily unpacked false assumptions.
We await your further analysis.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
Sorry, the (Departure) is from the faith in Jesus Christ, (Apostasy) from the Greek root word (Apostasia), not (Thomas Ice's) false teaching of the Church being taken to heaven.

Amazing how far persons will go in subverting the very basic teachings of Scripture.
You see words.
You do not listen.
I agreed "from the faith" is implied.

Implied is all you have.
Yet you depend on it as if your entire deal depends on it (and it does)