Attacks on the Rapture: a popular pastime among some Christians

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DWR

Guest
I feel sorry for you DWR. By giving me a red disagree, you are saying that you believe that God's wrath is meant for the church. If only you guys would do an in-depth study on the seals, trumpet and bowl judgments which make up God's wrath, you would understand the severity of it and why the church cannot go through it. It also means that you don't truly believe that the Lord satisfied God's wrath on behalf of every believer.
THAT IS A LIE.
YOU ARE A LIAR.
It is time for you to realize just how arrogant you are.
You are one sad individual.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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15For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord." 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

This says Jesus comes back and gathers his elect, those who are alive, meaning those who are on the Earth, into the clouds with Himself. Christ does not return until after the tribulation, which we have already established. If there is a pre-trib rapture, as you posit, how is it there are still Christians around to be gathered on Earth?

There will be a gathering of saints in heaven, as you correctly stated, and a gathering of saints on Earth. This is the rapture and it's post-trib as far as I can tell.

I have yet to see anyone show me anything that remotely suggests pre-trib. What do you have?
I have lots of verses.
You have nothing supporting your beliefs.
They are simply your beliefs.
Not supported by scripture
 
Jul 23, 2018
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THAT IS A LIE.
YOU ARE A LIAR.
It is time for you to realize just how arrogant you are.
You are one sad individual.
Are there any verses supporting your deal?
 
Mar 4, 2020
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I got a better one for ya.
Why are those gathered by Jesus sitting on a cloud in rev 14 DURING THE GT ....PRECEDING THE SUPPOSED resurrection at the end of the gt?

Remember you erroneously believe that 1 thes 4 is paul in conflict with a postrib rapture.

The bible is to be properly understood in entirety...not believing an impossible doctrine.
Once debunked...it is to be discarded (false doctrine)
Post-trib didn't get debunked. I just showed you what the Bible says about it. I agree the Bible should be understood it's entirety. If something doesn't mesh together with scripture then it can only be concluded we aren't understanding something completely.

What you showed me does not undo what Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians 4 says. There is no reference to a pre-trib gathering of the elect of any sort. There is a gathering at the 2nd coming of Christ though and that's after the great tribulation.

I'm only showing you what the Bible says. You decide what you want to believe.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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I got a better one for ya.
Why are those gathered by Jesus sitting on a cloud in rev 14 DURING THE GT ....PRECEDING THE SUPPOSED resurrection at the end of the gt?

Remember you erroneously believe that 1 thes 4 is paul in conflict with a postrib rapture.

The bible is to be properly understood in entirety...not believing an impossible doctrine.
Once debunked...it is to be discarded (false doctrine)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Rev 14 is a hidden dynamic.
I have only seen one other member see what I am seeing.

It slam dunks and totally destroys anything but a pretrib rapture.

Most can not see this Holy Spirit torpedo.
It is a hidden truth.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Post-trib didn't get debunked. I just showed you what the Bible says about it. I agree the Bible should be understood it's entirety. If something doesn't mesh together with scripture then it can only be concluded we aren't understanding something completely.

What you showed me does not undo what Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians 4 says. There is no reference to a pre-trib gathering of the elect of any sort. There is a gathering at the 2nd coming of Christ though and that's after the great tribulation.

I'm only showing you what the Bible says. You decide what you want to believe.
You have never reconciled that Jesus debunked post trib rapture beliefs.

But the fact remains...you have no verses
 
D

DWR

Guest
Are there any verses supporting your deal?
Yes, but you will not accept them.
It is sad to see a person so arrogant that he has to accuse a person that disagrees with him with what he accused me of in post #396.
Such remarks are just stupid.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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You have never reconciled that Jesus debunked post trib rapture beliefs.

But the fact remains...you have no verses
From the evidence presented in scripture it is to be parsed the timing and sequence of events. Everything from the time of birth pains, to the rebellion of the church, to the creation of the third temple, to the rise of the anti-Christ, to the 7 year great tribulation, to Armageddon, to the return of Christ, rapture, great white throne judgement. It doesn't give exact dates, we can only estimate based on scripture.

We need to study these events to see in which order the unfold. I will say one more time, the only time people are gathered from the earth, or the four winds, or the heavens, or resurrected is when Jesus returns. That's the rapture.

I personally don't see it as a contentious thing. If you believe in Christ as your savior then you will be saved just as the Bible promises. It is not dependant on our ability to understand the end times accurately. But we should make every honest effort.
 
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Post-trib didn't get debunked. I just showed you what the Bible says about it. I agree the Bible should be understood it's entirety. If something doesn't mesh together with scripture then it can only be concluded we aren't understanding something completely.

What you showed me does not undo what Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians 4 says. There is no reference to a pre-trib gathering of the elect of any sort. There is a gathering at the 2nd coming of Christ though and that's after the great tribulation.

I'm only showing you what the Bible says. You decide what you want to believe.
Talk about not meshing, there is no such thing as the DEAD in Christ after the cross.

(Joh 11:25) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
(Joh 11:26) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Challenge to postribs
Please post a verse supporting the supposed postrib rapture.

Matt 24 has been debunked.
Is there another.

I think you guys had 2 or so.
I can't remember the other that supposedly voids the 10 or so verses us pretribs found.
We so handily defend our position. Lol
 
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From the evidence presented in scripture it is to be parsed the timing and sequence of events. Everything from the time of birth pains, to the rebellion of the church, to the creation of the third temple, to the rise of the anti-Christ, to the 7 year great tribulation, to Armageddon, to the return of Christ, rapture, great white throne judgement. It doesn't give exact dates, we can only estimate based on scripture.

We need to study these events to see in which order the unfold. I will say one more time, the only time people are gathered from the earth, or the four winds, or the heavens, or resurrected is when Jesus returns. That's the rapture.

I personally don't see it as a contentious thing. If you believe in Christ as your savior then you will be saved just as the Bible promises. It is not dependant on our ability to understand the end times accurately. But we should make every honest effort.
Go ahead and post a verse.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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Which church are you speaking about?
For my posts (when speaking of what I did in that post ^ ), I normally place the "explanation" in brackets following the phrase "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [like this (if it's okay with you):-->"ALL those "saved" in this present age [singular], Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence); ALL those who have trusted in Christ and His finished work alone for salvation, per 1Cor15:1-4,17, 1Jn5:9-12, etc]

The one that meets on Sunday or the one that meets on Sat.?
As I've posted in the past... Rom14:5, "One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."

The one that believes in OSAS or the ones that believes salvation can be lost?
The one that believes baptism is necessary for salvation or the one that does not?
The one that believes in tongues or the one that does not?
As I said at the top, "salvation" is connected with "Christ, and His finished work" (it is "not of [our own] works, lest any man should boast")

The one that believes in a pre-trib rapture or the one that believe in our gathering at the second coming?
I've pointed out in past posts, the following passage (in part, here):

1Th5:10[6] -
"10 Who died for us, THAT
whether we may
WATCH [same word as in v.6 - G1127 - grēgorōmen / grégoreó]
or
whether we may SLEEP [ * same word as in v.6 - G2518 - katheudōmen / katheudó]
we should live together WITH [G4862 - syn - UNION-with/IDENTIFICATION-with] Him"

[ * NOT the same "sleep [G2837]" word that was used in 1Th4:13,14,15 having the meaning "sleep IN DEATH"... NOT THAT word; but the SAME WORD as was used in verse 6-->"So then we should not sleep [G2518] as the others, but we should watch [G1127] and we should be sober." Now read again Verse 10 "...that whether we might WATCH *or* whether we might SLEEP, we should live together WITH [G4862 - UNION-with] Him" (a distinct "WITH" word from that of the "with [G3326]" word used in Matt25:10, which pertains to the "5 VirginS [PLURAL]" who will go "[/went] in with [G3326 - meta - accompanying] Him to the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" aka the earthly MK age (IOW, He is NOT coming to MARRY "10 [or even 5] virginS [PLURAL]"... this context is the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [the earthly MK], not "the MARRIAGE" itself [pertaining to the "BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]"])]

I hope that clearly answers that aspect of your questions. :)

Thus ^ , it doesn't matter what a person believes with regard to "rapture timing" (re: "salvation")... however, I have noticed a connection (fairly often) between a persons view on THAT subject, to that of what their understanding is on "salvation truths" (where, many times I've noticed, that if they are "off" on the one, they are many times also "off" on what "salvation" is (meaning, by "off," that they add something TO "[faith in] Christ and His finished work alone, for salvation"... like "faith PLUS ____" [fill in the blank with any number of things]);

...so that ^ would be something to consider, on that particular question/subject. ;)

I could go on and on but will leave it there.
 

acts5_29

Active member
Apr 17, 2020
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Rev 14 is a hidden dynamic.
I have only seen one other member see what I am seeing.

It slam dunks and totally destroys anything but a pretrib rapture.

Most can not see this Holy Spirit torpedo.
It is a hidden truth.
Revelation 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

I thought Babylon wasn't fallen until Revelation 18? And where does it say that the 144,000 were raptured--not killed?

And this is supposed to be a "slam dunk" supporting pre-trib Rapture? To say that Revelation 14 is a slam dunk about Pre-trib rapture is like saying Revelation 14 is a slam dunk that the Bible has errors. Revelation 14 clearly says that Babylon is fallen, yet Revelation 17 clearly says that it is not yet.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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Interesting. I admit, I lack understanding of what you just said; probably because I'm jumping in the middle of the conversation.

Are you saying that Revelation 14 says the 24 elders are redeemed, and that angels and/or heavenly beings cannot be redeemed, therefore pre-trib has to be true because only humans can be redeemed?
To get the context of the convo, go back a few posts (now a few pages ago) and read Posts #350 and #360 [page 18], about what the "24 elders" are saying of themselves in Revelation 5:9 ('hast redeemed US [G2248 - hemas] to God out of [ek] every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation' - https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/rev/5/9/ss1/s_1172009 ; and per the manuscript evidence being overwhelming to that point, as I mentioned in those posts--please see those two posts--Of the 24 manuscripts total [of the Greek, having Revelation 5], 23 of them have "US," and only ONE manuscript leaves it blank/untranslated [the "Codex Alexandrinus"] )

Because I see nothing in Revelation 14 which says the elders either are or are not redeemed. Only the 144,000. Not sure it matters, anyway, since the 144,000 definitely can only be humans. And they're in Heaven, too, so the argument would still remain the same.
I'm not sure what "Abs" point is, that he is endeavoring to make re: Rev14...

IMO, it is unrelated to what I'm pointing out about the wording in Rev5:9
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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Talk about not meshing, there is no such thing as the DEAD in Christ after the cross.
Nah... not true... "the dead IN Christ SHALL RISE [*FUTURE TENSE*] first..."

...and Paul said that long after the Cross point in time. ;)


[are you among those who disregard Paul's words as mere "fluff" and not really from the Lord?? (except in the few places where P says as much?)]





(Joh 11:25) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
(Joh 11:26) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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P.S. again, "resurrection" has to do with the BODY (except in those few/several passages I've listed that speak of what is "LIKENED UNTO" a resurrection, pertaining to ISRAEL "coming up out of the graveyard of nations, where scattered"--Dan12:1-4,10; Isaiah 26:14-21; Rom11:15[25]; Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23; Hosea 5:14-6:3; etc etc...)

"resurrection ['to stand again' on the earth]"... this pertains to ones BODY.

This isn't to say that I do not believe that once a believer DIES that they are not "present with the Lord" (THEY ARE--this is what the CONTEXT of 2Cor5:1-8 covers, in addition to speaking of our Rapture point-in-time [cf 1Cor15:51-54 in parts]), it's just that their "resurrected [and glorified] BODY" is not up there yet, but awaits "our Rapture [SNATCH]" event. ;) This is what the words "unclothed" and "clothed UPON" speak to in that 2Cor5:2-4 CONTEXT. ;)
 

acts5_29

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Apr 17, 2020
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Nah... not true... "the dead IN Christ SHALL RISE [*FUTURE TENSE*] first..."

...and Paul said that long after the Cross point in time. ;)


[are you among those who disregard Paul's words as mere "fluff" and not really from the Lord?? (except in the few places where P says as much?)]
Your assertion that the elders refer to themselves in Revelation 5:9 in the first person plural is certainly a consequential nuance. However, my NIV does not have that. Something doesn't jibe.

It would still remain to be seen, however, whether that would have any consequence on the rapture's timing. After all, if 12 of the 24 elders were apostles, then they would not be raptured--they would be dead. Unless we go idealist, and to be raptured IS to be dead??
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Nah... not true... "the dead IN Christ SHALL RISE [*FUTURE TENSE*] first..."

...and Paul said that long after the Cross point in time. ;)


[are you among those who disregard Paul's words as mere "fluff" and not really from the Lord?? (except in the few places where P says as much?)]
No I don't disregard Paul's words as mere "fluff", I compare Paul's words with Jesus' words because they ALWAYS agree. Jesus said that believers that are alive and remain, NEVER DIE so there is no such things as the dead in Christ post Christ's resurrection. Who do you think is wrong, Jesus or Paul or you?
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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Your assertion that the elders refer to themselves in Revelation 5:9 in the first person plural is certainly a consequential nuance. However, my NIV does not have that. Something doesn't jibe.
Did you happen to grab the wrong post of mine, to quote? as your comment doesn't align with the post you're quoting of mine, but another of a different context/line-of-convo). = )

Anyway, I had posted about the "manuscript evidence" in another post... but I explained it in condensed form in my post you're referring to but didn't quote/grab-to-quote :D ).

I'll post it again in the next post... please be looking for it (I'm going to go find it to post... but there might be several posts pop up in the meantime, by other posters... while I go find it. BRB, in a few mins... WAIT FOR IT :D )

It would still remain to be seen, however, whether that would have any consequence on the rapture's timing. After all, if 12 of the 24 elders were apostles, then they would not be raptured--they would be dead. Unless we go idealist, and to be raptured IS to be dead??
[I'm not sure I understand your point in the underlined ^ (??)]

As to this part, think about what it is they are saying... [in Rev5:9]... "hast redeemed US to God out of [ek] EVERY kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation"