Baptism and holy spirit

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CS1

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May 23, 2012
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First of all, when is a person considered dead?
a) Is it when life leaves the body
b) When death comes to the body
c) Both a & b

NB. The scriptures considers death and life as persons (life-God/Death-satan)
Now that life and death are not things that we can isolate and empirically prove their leaving or coming- it would be very difficult say that one has died within a short period of time.

secondly, if a person is prayed to and comes back to life, is it that:
a) life comes back to them
b) Death goes
c) both

Thirdly, scriptural, we are in harvest time, so technically there's no coming back from the harvest Rev 14:14-20

And my short answer to the question is- i will not believe it.
Tell me a story.
NO story to tell I would like you to explain who it is that confrims both A& B ?
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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Great scripture.


We are discussing the manifestation of the gift of the Holy Spirit.
These are the manifestation of the HS:
1 Cor 12:7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,a and to still another the interpretation of tongues.b 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

So don't limit your discussion to speaking in tongues.


According to who/what? Where is that in the Bible?
According to Paul:

1 Cor 12:
12Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ.13For we were all baptized byc one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.

15Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

A well balanced body would have as many healers as there are speakers of the tongues- but of course in proportion. There should be as many interpreters as there as speakers of the tongues. This is what we call distribution. The church today, there are all speakers of tongues and no interpreter- if you said your church has interpreters, give me one sample interpretation and i'll tell you whether to leave the church or stay.
 

CS1

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May 23, 2012
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These are the manifestation of the HS:
1 Cor 12:7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,a and to still another the interpretation of tongues.b 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

So don't limit your discussion to speaking in tongues.




According to Paul:

1 Cor 12:
12Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ.13For we were all baptized byc one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.

15Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

A well balanced body would have as many healers as there are speakers of the tongues- but of course in proportion. There should be as many interpreters as there as speakers of the tongues. This is what we call distribution. The church today, there are all speakers of tongues and no interpreter- if you said your church has interpreters, give me one sample interpretation and i'll tell you whether to leave the church or stay.
you do not know what you are talking about I thinking you are a troll.
 

CS1

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May 23, 2012
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So what other forms of prayer can there be that are not vocal?
non-verbal , and our very life can be a form of prayer how else is one to pray without ceasing ?
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
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While every Christian has the ability to operate all of the manifestations, the manifestations of gifts of healings and miracles require revelation from God, they are not something we can do on a whim. Also, we cannot just demand God to give us a word of knowledge or a word of wisdom, but we can ask.
and I would say to you....
Your conclusion is based on a false premise.
You keep coming up with these blanket "statements of fact".... with zero scriptural evidence of truth.
Nowhere does scripture say that "every Christian has the ability to operate all of the manifestations".... in fact, it practically states exactly the opposite. One body, many different parts.
The Spirit gives to one, the gift of prophecy, and to another, the gift of healing, etc...

this has been pointed out to you multiple times, by multiple posters, and you still repeat the same unsubstantiated claim, that every Christian can manifest all the gifts at will.

And, if all of those listed are manifestations of the same Spirit... why on earth would you need a "revelation from God" to manifest healings, miracles, knowledge, and wisdom.. if you DON'T need a revelation from God to manifest tongues.. the LEAST desirable of the gifts?

You also seem to be placing undue importance on the least of the gifts.... even the greatest of the gifts is nothing compared to "a more excellent way".... the manifestation of love for your fellow man.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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Here is the will of God.

1 Cor 14:
5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
You don't get it.
Paul was castigating the church for the wrongs they were doing.
I'm castigating the church for the wrongs that they do.
And you want to talk about the will of God- That verse is what Paul wished and not the will of God.
this is the will of God:

Rev 13: 10“If anyone is destined for captivity, into captivity he will go; Ifanyone is to die by the sword, by the sword hemust be killed.” Here is a call for the perseverance and faith of the saints.

Rev 22:11Let the one who does wrong continue to do wrong; let the vile person continue to be vile; let the one who does right continue to do right; and let the holy person continue to be holy.”

so those in Corinth who wouldn't listen are well within the will of God.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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wrong , you can ask for a gift, and it can be given and it will still be a gift because you did not earn it. the gift of salvation is no longer a gift once you have it? wrong.

and you did not answer my question

"so if a person prayed for a man or women who had died and they came back you would concider that raising the dead ? Please answer? "
You don't ask for a gift, those are requests and it is really bad manners to ask for a gift.

If a person prayed for a man or a woman or a transgender and they came back i would consider that raising the dead.
Do you have a story.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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how do you know or come to the understanding of what is considered dead? and when does life leave the body and who determines this today ? who is it that determs both A & b?
Jesus - He created all that was created visible and invisible.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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These are the manifestation of the HS:
1 Cor 12:7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,a and to still another the interpretation of tongues.b 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

So don't limit your discussion to speaking in tongues.
But that is the primary topic we are discussing.

According to Paul:

1 Cor 12:
12Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ.13For we were all baptized byc one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.

15Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

A well balanced body would have as many healers as there are speakers of the tongues
That's not in the Bible.

This is:
5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

but of course in proportion. There should be as many interpreters as there as speakers of the tongues.
The person who interprets is to be the same person who just spoke in tongues (1 Cor 14:5, 13).

This is what we call distribution. The church today, there are all speakers of tongues and no interpreter
It's true that in some churches people speak in tongues without interpreting. They need to read 1 Cor 14.

if you said your church has interpreters, give me one sample interpretation and i'll tell you whether to leave the church or stay.
You are ignorant on these things. There is no way that I will trust you to determine whether I should leave my church or not.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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you do not know what you are talking about I thinking you are a troll.
i haven't even said anything, i have just quoted Paul. I think you should be saying that Paul doesn't know what he says.

I'm not a troll.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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non-verbal , and our very life can be a form of prayer how else is one to pray without ceasing ?
So how do deaf & numb pray if they have a chance with God?

Let me remind you why we started discussing this (non verbal prayer/asking), we were discussing about gifts and if believers ask for the gifts or the Holy spirit.
So tell me, how do we ask for the gifts or the HS non verbally or even our very life form?
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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and I would say to you....

You keep coming up with these blanket "statements of fact".... with zero scriptural evidence of truth.
Nowhere does scripture say that "every Christian has the ability to operate all of the manifestations"....
1 Cor 12:
7) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

in fact, it practically states exactly the opposite. One body, many different parts.
The Spirit gives to one, the gift of prophecy, and to another, the gift of healing, etc...
1 Cor 14:
5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

13) Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

this has been pointed out to you multiple times, by multiple posters, and you still repeat the same unsubstantiated claim, that every Christian can manifest all the gifts at will.
I have never stated that all Christians can operate all of the manifestations at will. I did say that every Christian can speak in tongues at will.

And, if all of those listed are manifestations of the same Spirit... why on earth would you need a "revelation from God" to manifest healings, miracles, knowledge, and wisdom.. if you DON'T need a revelation from God to manifest tongues..
First, word of knowledge and word of wisdom ARE revelation from God. It is God giving you information (word of knowledge) and what to do with it (word of wisdom). Second, A Christian cannot just demand that a person be healed, or demand to perform a miracle. God has to give you the revelation to do those things, and then you can carry them out.

the LEAST desirable of the gifts?
Tongues is not a gift, it is a manifestation, and it is not the "least" of the manifestations. It is something God would like all Christians to do.

You also seem to be placing undue importance on the least of the gifts.... even the greatest of the gifts is nothing compared to "a more excellent way".... the manifestation of love for your fellow man.
Agreed. Everything must be done in love.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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But that is the primary topic we are discussing.


That's not in the Bible.
How is it not in the bible? Paul is asking, 1 cor 12:19 if they were all one part, where would the body be?
Meaning that if all or many are given just one gift, then it is not a body. The churches today are not a body in any form or shape- they excel in speaking a language that no one understands when healing=0/prophesy=0/ interpretation=0
 

CS1

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May 23, 2012
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and I would say to you....


You keep coming up with these blanket "statement of facts".... with zero scriptural evidence of truth.
Nowhere does scripture say that "every Christian has the ability to operate all of the manifestations".... in fact, it practically states exactly the opposite. One body, many different parts.
The Spirit gives to one, the gift of prophecy, and to another, the gift of healing, etc...

this has been pointed out to you multiple times, by multiple posters, and you still repeat the same unsubstantiated claim, that every Christian can manifest all the gifts at will.

And, if all of those listed are manifestations of the same Spirit... why on earth would you need a "revelation from God" to manifest healings, miracles, knowledge, and wisdom.. if you DON'T need a revelation from God to manifest tongues.. the LEAST desirable of the gifts?

You also seem to be placing undue importance on the least of the gifts.... even the greatest of the gifts is nothing compared to "a more excellent way".... the manifestation of love for your fellow man.

I agree with your point to a point .

and I like you too :)
and it is ok that you do not agree but let me please give you what I think is the very important authorial intent of 1cor the whole letter chapter s 1 to 16
the opening letter cannot be over looked as to who the Holy Spirit Led Paul to write to.

verse 1 of 1cor 1:2

"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's: "

This is who he was writing to.

we know the " Who" now we need to know the "why"?

WHY :
verse 4 " that you were enriched in everything by Him in all [b]utterance and all knowledge,


testimony of Christ was confirmed [c]in you,

7 so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,

8. who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. (what day?) "the comingday of the lord".

why:
1. to enrich in everything BY HIM ( the Lord Jesus) in all speaking and Knowledge
2. to confrim Christ in you
3. so that you come short in NO Gift while eagerly waiting for the Coming of the Lord
4. And Confirm you to the end that you will be blameless when Jesus comes again


Now what was the cause of this letter?

What:
start verse 10
1. Divsions among you
2. contentions among you



Paul is led to address this issues of this church.
Now in context to the gifts of the Holy Spirit found in 1cor 12, 13, and 14 I believe that we are to desire all the gifts because I believe God will place in your heart the gifts to desire. I have operated in the gifts of the Holy Spirit in the following ones.


Tongues & interpretation, word of knowledge, word of wisdom, gift of healing, prophecy. Did I desire to use them? Yes, was I asking to be used by them at the time? No. The Holy Spirit gave me the ability at the time. The Holy Spirit is not going to make you do something you are not ready for. If you have know desire then you will not be used, if you have no desire and God does use you , you had to be willing at that time you were used. Do I claim the gifts to me mine? NO. They are the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, can I speak in tongues right now yes God has given me the ability and has entrusted me with it. Do I speak out for show ? NO. that is abusing the gift.

Paul was instructing and correcting errors with



  • The Lord supper
  • Marriage
  • Gifts of the Holy Spirit
  • Divisions
  • Contentions
  • Immaturity
  • Acting in love not in the flesh
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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Noose said:
A well balanced body would have as many healers as there are speakers of the tongues
shrume said:
That's not in the Bible.
How is it not in the bible?
Show me where the Bible says there should be just as many healings or miracles as there are people who speak in tongues.

Paul is asking, 1 cor 12:19 if they were all one part, where would the body be?
Meaning that if all or many are given just one gift, then it is not a body.
Right. In the body, different people do different things. Some people are more adept at praying than others. Others are more fluent in the manifestation of prophesy. And so on.

But the Bible does say that God would like all Christians to speak in tongues. We are encouraged to always be praying in the Spirit (which is speaking in tongues).

The churches today are not a body in any form or shape- they excel in speaking a language that no one understands when healing=0/prophesy=0/ interpretation=0
We also have prophesy, and everyone who speaks in tongues out loud interprets.
 

CS1

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May 23, 2012
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You don't ask for a gift, those are requests and it is really bad manners to ask for a gift.

If a person prayed for a man or a woman or a transgender and they came back i would consider that raising the dead.
Do you have a story.
it is not bad manners if you were told to ask.
 

CS1

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May 23, 2012
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So how do deaf & numb pray if they have a chance with God?

Let me remind you why we started discussing this (non verbal prayer/asking), we were discussing about gifts and if believers ask for the gifts or the Holy spirit.
So tell me, how do we ask for the gifts or the HS non verbally or even our very life form?
LOL the thread is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit , and the posting has gone from gifts of the Spirit to the dead are not raised today
to praying non-verbally and now exaggeration and hypotheticals
 

CS1

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May 23, 2012
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How is it not in the bible? Paul is asking, 1 cor 12:19 if they were all one part, where would the body be?
Meaning that if all or many are given just one gift, then it is not a body. The churches today are not a body in any form or shape- they excel in speaking a language that no one understands when healing=0/prophesy=0/ interpretation=0
Jesus - He created all that was created visible and invisible.
that is not an answer to the context of the question. were done . your troll bye