Baptism Essential to Salvation

[newbirth]

How does those that were never born fit into your definition of water baptism?

that definition is opinion not scripture

This thread has posed more questions than answers. We are Saved by Grace through Faith. That is as plain and simple fact. Yet Jesus, was baptized in water. John the Baptist also told us that he baptized with water, but Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit. From there things get a little murky. Jesus never said that we were to be baptized to be saved.

Yes he did, you just have to understand his words....
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Yet he sent His disciples out to "teach us and to baptize us" (make disciples out of us). There was a promise to the disciples who did this. He would be with them until the end of the world. But. He never baptized any of His disciples. Eleven of them were Saved by their faith. Then we get to the disciples. They baptized those who came for Salvation (most of the time) in the water. Here we are today. The real question is should we or must we be baptized in water in order to be saved, or should we or must we be after we are saved. Since God's Word does not contradict itself, there is an answer.

[SUP]
37 [/SUP]Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

[SUP]38 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

If the promise holds for us today the commands holds also

----------------------------------------------------
[SUP]46 [/SUP]For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

[SUP]47 [/SUP]Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

[SUP]48 [/SUP]And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Here we see men being commanded to be water baptised after having received the Holy Ghost. So it is clear Holy Spirit is not the baptism.
John 3 says, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Here are the evidence of both. The evidence also shows the order can be reversed.

Now it's time for us to take every scripture that is used to support a position and find the answer that isn't contradicted by another scripture. I see why your scriptures support your position, but your positions are also contradicted by the scriptures used to support other positions.

The word of God is not understood in man's wisdom but in faith and humility.

 

[newbirth]

If you say you're not baptized in the Holy Spirit, but are only baptized by water, that's on you.
The Holy Spirit is surely a gift, but He is also the one Baptism.

The passage about water and spirit is not confusing. I don't even understand how you got your interpretation from the context.
Did you even read the rest of it?

There are 2 births. Natural and spiritual.
Water and Spirit.

He doesn't mention 3 births: womb, water, and spirit.
Just two.


Please read Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus. Notice the conversation of light and dark, and how that imagery is used.
Try to analyze how Jesus is responding to everything that Nicodemus has asked him, and not just saying random phrases. Each phrase is answering something that Nicodemus said, and/or dealing with the circumstances around Nicodemus coming to him.


And to all the verses with the command of baptizing in water:
It is a command. The command doesn't save. It is an expression of faith. Faith is what saves.
The expression of faith is faithfulness/OBEDIENCE.

Answer this question
Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Now this is what we call the great commission, if this does not mean water baptism. I want you to tell me how do you baptise someone with the Holy Spirit. The commission is something you have to do please tell how do you do it? How do you perform Holy Spirit baptism?

 

[Alligator]

If you say you're not baptized in the Holy Spirit, but are only baptized by water, that's on you.
The Holy Spirit is surely a gift, but He is also the one Baptism.

The passage about water and spirit is not confusing. I don't even understand how you got your interpretation from the context.
Did you even read the rest of it?

There are 2 births. Natural and spiritual.
Water and Spirit.

He doesn't mention 3 births: womb, water, and spirit.
Just two.


Please read Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus. Notice the conversation of light and dark, and how that imagery is used.
Try to analyze how Jesus is responding to everything that Nicodemus has asked him, and not just saying random phrases. Each phrase is answering something that Nicodemus said, and/or dealing with the circumstances around Nicodemus coming to him.


And to all the verses with the command of baptizing in water:
It is a command. The command doesn't save. It is an expression of faith. Faith is what saves.
The expression of faith is faithfulness/OBEDIENCE.

The one baptism today is water baptism. This is the same baptism Christ instructed his apostles to perform in His Great Commission. I think most will agree that Christ would not ask the apostles to do something they did not have the power to do.

 

[Kerry]

The one baptism today is water baptism. This is the same baptism Christ instructed his apostles to perform in His Great Commission. I think most will agree that Christ would not ask the apostles to do something they did not have the power to do.

But were they baptized? No record of it. You would think that would be important doncha ya?

 

[newbirth]

But were they baptized? No record of it. You would think that would be important doncha ya?

well I guess you think they are all liars then. The US has no records on thousands if immigrants I suppose they don't exist.

 

[Kerry]

well I guess you think they are all liars then. The US has no records on thousands if immigrants I suppose they don't exist.

Good answer, Not

 

[SolidGround]

Answer this question
Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Now this is what we call the great commission, if this does not mean water baptism. I want you to tell me how do you baptise someone with the Holy Spirit. The commission is something you have to do please tell how do you do it? How do you perform Holy Spirit baptism?

The one baptism today is water baptism. This is the same baptism Christ instructed his apostles to perform in His Great Commission. I think most will agree that Christ would not ask the apostles to do something they did not have the power to do.

My last paragraph dealt with all of that thoroughly.

Water baptism is still a Scriptural command,
but obeying commands is an expression of faith, not what saves us.

If a person refuses to be baptized in water, it is that they are either misled or truly rebellious.
The first is forgivable and forgiven,
the latter is an indicator that they have no faith to begin with.

 

[Kerry]

Solid, will you actually put sticking your head in water over the work of Christ. No something is wrong with that. doncha think?

 

[Kerry]

I meant if all we had to do was stick our head under water, Shoot I do that erry morning.

 

[newbirth]

If you say you're not baptized in the Holy Spirit, but are only baptized by water, that's on you.
The Holy Spirit is surely a gift, but He is also the one Baptism.

according to you there is two....
Acts 10:46-48
[SUP]46 [/SUP]For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

[SUP]47 [/SUP]Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

[SUP]48 [/SUP]And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.



you see they received the Holy Spirit...then he commanded them to be water baptized....Do you see that

The passage about water and spirit is not confusing. I don't even understand how you got your interpretation from the context.
Did you even read the rest of it?

There are 2 births. Natural and spiritual.
Water and Spirit.

He doesn't mention 3 births: womb, water, and spirit.
Just two.


Please read Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus. Notice the conversation of light and dark, and how that imagery is used.
Try to analyze how Jesus is responding to everything that Nicodemus has asked him, and not just saying random phrases. Each phrase is answering something that Nicodemus said, and/or dealing with the circumstances around Nicodemus coming to him.

you are analysing God's word and giving your opinion. That accounts for nothing. Just stay with the word

And to all the verses with the command of baptizing in water:
It is a command. The command doesn't save. It is an expression of faith. Faith is what saves.
The expression of faith is faithfulness/OBEDIENCE.

...what you are saying is baptising in water is obedience /faithfulness therefore not baptising is disobedience/no faith, now if someone disobeys their first order after repenting which is to be baptized then they cannot be saved because they have disobeyed a direct order from Christ showing that they have no faith.

Stay with the word my friend,I don't know what doctrine you are following but it is not good.

 

[newbirth]

My last paragraph dealt with all of that thoroughly.

Water baptism is still a Scriptural command,
but obeying commands is an expression of faith, not what saves us.

If a person refuses to be baptized in water, it is that they are either misled or truly rebellious.
The first is forgivable and forgiven,
the latter is an indicator that they have no faith to begin with.

you still have not answered the question.....Answer the question
Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Now this is what we call the great commission, if this does not mean water baptism. I want you to tell me how do you baptise someone with the Holy Spirit. The commission is something you have to do please tell how do you do it? How do you perform Holy Spirit baptism?


You are actually denying scripture here. Is Peter lying why is he saying be baptised for the remission of sins?
The scripture is clear...Repent , be Baptised for the remission of sins, receive the gift of Holy Ghost.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

 

[SolidGround]

Solid, will you actually put sticking your head in water over the work of Christ. No something is wrong with that. doncha think?

well, rebellion really is a sign of lacking faith. Not that they are unsaved, but their bearing a bad fruit.

Stay with the word my friend,I don't know what doctrine you are following but it is not good.

I am sticking to the Word.
I am sorry that you are not yet free from the need for the physical.
In time you will see if you have the Spirit guiding you.
I don't have the power to bring you to see these things, but the Spirit is very able.

God bless, and I hope you do reread John 3 as a whole, so you understand what 'water' is in the context.

 

[SolidGround]

you still have not answered the question.....Answer the question
Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Now this is what we call the great commission, if this does not mean water baptism. I want you to tell me how do you baptise someone with the Holy Spirit. The commission is something you have to do please tell how do you do it? How do you perform Holy Spirit baptism?


You are actually denying scripture here. Is Peter lying why is he saying be baptised for the remission of sins?
The scripture is clear...Repent , be Baptised for the remission of sins, receive the gift of Holy Ghost.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

if you won't listen, I can't say it any more clearly.
can you read my posts?

I told you, as I will tell you a third time, that they were commanded to baptize in water.
This is not "the Baptism". This is a symbol of the ONE BAPTISM. It is simply a physical representative of the spiritual reality.

There is also only ONE COMMUNION, but it is not juice and bread,
it is our relationship with Christ.

One is a physical representative, the other is a spiritual reality.

Does a person lose their salvation for not taking communion? The command is in the same passage, yet you have ignored it so far in this conversation.

 

[newbirth]

well, rebellion really is a sign of lacking faith. Not that they are unsaved, but their bearing a bad fruit.

I am sticking to the Word.
I am sorry that you are not yet free from the need for the physical.
In time you will see if you have the Spirit guiding you.
I don't have the power to bring you to see these things, but the Spirit is very able.

God bless, and I hope you do reread John 3 as a whole, so you understand what 'water' is in the context.

You still haven't told me how you were baptised with the Holy Spirit and who baptised you with the Holy Spirit.
Were you baptised in water?

 

[Kerry]

well, rebellion really is a sign of lacking faith. Not that they are unsaved, but their bearing a bad fruit.

I am sticking to the Word.
I am sorry that you are not yet free from the need for the physical.
In time you will see if you have the Spirit guiding you.
I don't have the power to bring you to see these things, but the Spirit is very able.

God bless, and I hope you do reread John 3 as a whole, so you understand what 'water' is in the context.

I will stick with Romans 14. And I will stick with the cross as that is the only thing I can do.

 

[pilgram]

1) Yes

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

2) Immersion

It pictures our death, burial and resurrection. The death and burial of the old man and the resurrection of a new creature in Christ...

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

3) As Thomist said, we are baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Addendum:

The minster should ask if you have repented of your sins and your answer had better be a truthful yes. No one wants to lie to the Holy Spirit.

I agree with you except using john 3 to prove water baptism

 

[newbirth]

if you won't listen, I can't say it any more clearly.
can you read my posts?

I told you, as I will tell you a third time, that they were commanded to baptize in water.
This is not "the Baptism". This is a symbol of the ONE BAPTISM. It is simply a physical representative of the spiritual reality.

There is also only ONE COMMUNION, but it is not juice and bread,
it is our relationship with Christ.

One is a physical representative, the other is a spiritual reality.

Does a person lose their salvation for not taking communion? The command is in the same passage, yet you have ignored it so far in this conversation

have you read the scripture lately

.

Men die for eating the Lord's supper unworthily..
[h=1][/h] [SUP]26 [/SUP]For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

[SUP]28 [/SUP]But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

[SUP]30 [/SUP]For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

 

[pilgram]

Jesus uses being born of water is not talking about water baptism . Baptism in water is symbolic to identifying with his death read Rom 6 .. we are buried with him . Jesus uses the water in John 3 to Identify birth.

 

[Kerry]

Are you worthy?

 

[pilgram]

We cannot be born twice in water and spirt..