Baptism symbol only ?

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May 2, 2014
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I have read several posts where people think getting baptized in water SAVES you.

No, getting baptized in water is something you do because by the Grace of GOD you were SAVED.

Getting Baptized is a WORK, and we are NOT saved by Works, but rather by the GRACE of GOD.

Ephesians 2:8-10 (HCSB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift

[SUP]9 [/SUP] not from works, so that no one can boast.

[SUP]10 [/SUP] For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works {What we do AFTER we are SAVED.}, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them.


Malachi 3:6 (NKJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] "For I am the LORD, I do not change; Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.


Therefore if we can find ONE example of HOW God saved somebody, we will know HOW God saves EVERYONE.

Romans 4:3-4 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Now to the one who works, pay is not considered as a gift, but as something owed.


NOT Saving FAITH plus Water Baptism - as far as we know Abraham was NEVER Baptized in Water.
Abraham Believed GOD and that Genuine FAITH that was a FREE GIFT from GOD, is all that it took for Abraham to be SAVED, therefore that is HOW GOD SAVES ALL MEN. Sure genuine LOVE for GOD, produces a desire to obey HIM, but a genuine desire to Obey HIM, will NEVER produce Salvation. THAT IS A FREE GIFT FROM GOD BY HIS GRACE.

GRACE = Receiving what we do not deserve and cannot EARN.

MERCY = NOT receiving what we DO deserve.
There's the key to this problem, baptism is a work and works don't save. The whole works don't save argument is a misunderstanding of Paul's teaching on works. Paul was addressing a problem that was prevalent in his day. He was not, i repeat he was not, saying, that anything one does is a work and that can't save. Paul was addressing the Judaizers. The Judaizers were Jews who believed that came from Jerusalem and were going behind Paul teaching his converts that in addition to faith in Christ it was also necessary for them to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses. It is these works of the Law and being circumcised that Paul says don't save. Ephesians 2:8 is the prime passage used to argue this point and it like most of the passages tells us what Paul is addressing.

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. {ordained: or, prepared}
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: (Eph 2:9-16 KJV)

The works that don't save are those that Christ ablished, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, that is the Mosaic Law. We can look at Acts 15 and what happened at the Jerusalem council to see this issue addressed.

And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. (Act 15:1 KJV)
2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. {rose...: or, rose up, said they, certain}
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. {mouth: Gr. word}
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
(Act 15:1-29 KJV)


Notice verse one, there were men from Jerusalem telling the brethren they must be circumcised in order to be saved. When Paul went up to Jerusalem there were Pharisees who were believers who said the Gentiles need to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses. These are the works that Paul is saying do not save. Nowhere does Paul reject good deeds. As a matter of fact he says those who continue doing good are seeking eternal life. If works played not role in salvation then all the doing good in the world wouldn't be seeking eternal life, yet Paul says that those who are doing good are seeking eternal life, therefore doing good is seeking eternal life. This is just the opposite of what many Christians claim. Paul's argument against works was directed to specific issue of his day and he most certainly is not saying that anything a person does is a work and that these cannot save. Many Christians reject the necessity of baptism based on this flawed idea of the works argument.
 
May 2, 2014
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Ezekiel 12:1-2 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] The word of the LORD came to me:
[SUP]2 [/SUP] “Son of man, you are living among a rebellious house. They have eyes to see but do not see, and ears to hear but do not hear, for they are a rebellious house.
A passage of Scripture out of context? Why not reconsider your position and look again at the Scriptures?
 
A

Afrndlyman81

Guest
[SUP]Ephesians 5:25-27
[/SUP][SUP]25 [/SUP]Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, [SUP]26 [/SUP]that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, [SUP]27 [/SUP]that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish

Here it says that the washing is done by THE WORD---not physical water. Who is THE WORD?

John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [SUP]2 [/SUP]He was in the beginning with God. [SUP]3 [/SUP]All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

John 1:14 [SUP]14 [/SUP]And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

The Word is Jesus. So it's Jesus who does the washing of the church...not the physical water. The word "water" is this passage in Ephesians does not refer to physical water that we drink and bathe with, but the WORD, which is Jesus.
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
[SUP]Ephesians 5:25-27
[/SUP][SUP]25 [/SUP]Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, [SUP]26 [/SUP]that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, [SUP]27 [/SUP]that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish

Here it says that the washing is done by THE WORD---not physical water. Who is THE WORD?

John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [SUP]2 [/SUP]He was in the beginning with God. [SUP]3 [/SUP]All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

John 1:14 [SUP]14 [/SUP]And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

The Word is Jesus. So it's Jesus who does the washing of the church...not the physical water. The word "water" is this passage in Ephesians does not refer to physical water that we drink and bathe with, but the WORD, which is Jesus.
You are right, for it is Jesus our Lord who cleanses us.
Baptism is now a symbol of a clean mind and a showing of faith for one who is a follower of Jesus so that they can accept the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Baptism in water to receive the Holy Spirit is a command given by our Lord, so we are to follow and do it.

John baptized with water for remission of sins.

We are now baptized to receive the Holy Spirit with a clear mind.

Commanded by the Lord;

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.



Matthew 28:16-20
[h=3]The Great Commission[/h][SUP]16 [/SUP]Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. [SUP]17 [/SUP]When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]20 [/SUP]and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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(on the topic of the OP)


Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you.
(John 15:3)

He is the Word, and the Fountain of Living Water. salvation is from Him by faith through the working of the Spirit in regeneration. faith comes by hearing the Word of God. by this Water we drink of the Spirit - not H[SUB]2[/SUB]O - Christ. by this Water we are washed - not H[SUB]2[/SUB]O - Christ. by His blood - not H[SUB]2[/SUB]O - we are sanctified.

Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
(Ephesians 5:25-27)

bread and wine are not His flesh and blood any more than H[SUB]2[/SUB]O is what He gave the woman at the well to drink or the means by which our sin is washed away.

i am fully convinced that we should baptize and be baptized with H[SUB]2[/SUB]O in His name, just as much as i am convinced we should understand what it means.
but neither baptism with H[SUB]2[/SUB]O or understanding baptism is what saves us - what saves us is a person, Jesus Christ. Christ alone saves, God will have mercy on who God will have mercy, and Christ alone judges.
we must not think of the created thing higher than the Creator! all praise belongs to Him alone!

 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Why did you insert your opinion into Mark 16:16, it says nothing about the Spirit.


Mark 16:16

He that believeth and is baptized {spiritually immersed into the spiritual Body of Christ}
shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Because it clearly is talking about spiritual Baptism of 1 Corinthians 12:13, which is the Baptism that SAVES, not the obedience to Christian Water Baptism that comes AFTER we are Saved, making Water Baptism a WORK and Salvation is NOT BY WORKS. (Eph. 2:8-10) PLUS:

Luke 23:40-42 (NKJV)
[SUP]40 [/SUP] But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation?
[SUP]41 [/SUP] And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong."
[SUP]42 [/SUP] Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom."


Luke 23:43 (NKJV)
[SUP]43 [/SUP] And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."


The Thief was spiritually Baptized into the spiritual Body of Christ, BUT NEVER BAPTIZED IN WATER.

1 Corinthians 12:13 (NKJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For by one Spirit we were all baptized {ALL includes the thief on the cross.} into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

Malachi 3:6 (NKJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] "For I am the LORD, I do not change;
Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 (HCSB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] I know a man in Christ who was caught up into the third heaven 14 years ago. Whether he was in the body or out of the body, I don’t know, God knows.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] I know that this man—whether in the body or out of the body I don’t know, God knows—
[SUP]4 [/SUP] was caught up into paradise. He heard inexpressible words, which a man is not allowed to speak.


The Third Heaven is Paradise, where GOD DWELLS ON HIS THRONE.


THIRD HEAVEN
= where the Lord's Throne is, GOD's dwelling place
:

Matthew 5:34 (NASB)
[SUP]34 [/SUP] "But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God,

1 Kings 22:19 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Then Micaiah said, "Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on His throne,
and all the host of heaven standing by, on His right hand and on His left.

Psalm 11:4 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD'S throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.

SECOND HEAVEN = the Universe:

Genesis 26:4 (ASV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] And I will multiply thy seed as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these lands. And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed.

Genesis 1:14-20 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
[SUP]18 [/SUP] And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

FIRST HEAVEN = the Atmosphere of Earth:

[SUP]20 [/SUP] And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

Genesis 8:2 (NKJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] The fountains of the deep and the windows of heaven were also stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained.

1 Kings 18:45 (KJV)
[SUP]45 [/SUP] And it came to pass in the mean while, that the heaven was black with clouds and wind, and there was a great rain. And Ahab rode, and went to Jezreel.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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A passage of Scripture out of context? Why not reconsider your position and look again at the Scriptures?
That passage is where the expression "None are so blind as those who will not see", comes from.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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If Jesus was referring to the breaking of the woman's water, what purpose is served in saying it? As I pointed out, everyone who came to Jesus was born, so there's really no reason for Him to say you have to be born physically. As I said, if a car salesman said, you have to be born to buy this car a person would be like "DUH". We would look at such a statement as ridiculous.
well, in the context of the conversation, Jesus talked of a second birth, Nicodemus said 'DUH?' and Jesus said not natural birth, but spiritual. you could say it was as awkward as you describe.

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
(John 3:7)

(!)


In post 305 I posted a passage from Ezekiel and Revelation showing how God uses water to bring life. There are more examples in the Scriptures of God's use of water. In the kingdom there will be a river flowing from the throne that goes to the Dead Sea and everything the water touches will live. Revelation calls it a pure river of water of life. Jesus said,

6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. (Rev 21:6 KJV)

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Rev 22:17 KJV)

Being born is the beginning of life, it's no surprise that water would be involved when we see that God has the water of life

He also says:

He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
(John 7:38)

(i notice H[SUB]2[/SUB]O baptism isn't mentioned, but you might say that Living Water baptism is ..)

and through the prophets:

For my people have committed two evils;
they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters,
and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

(Jeremiah 2:13)

He is the Fountain of Living Water!

Then he brought me back to the door of the temple, and behold, water was issuing from below the threshold of the temple toward the east (for the temple faced east). The water was flowing down from below the south end of the threshold of the temple, south of the altar. Then he brought me out by way of the north gate and led me around on the outside to the outer gate that faces toward the east; and behold, the water was trickling out on the south side.
(Ezekiel 47:1-2)

and the apostles:

you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood,
to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

(1 Peter 2:5)

the same One that i stand on is the One who washed me and the One with whom i am washed, the One who gave me to drink and the One from whom i drink!! :)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Because many people don't read this in context. Jesus isn't telling Gentiles they have to be born twice. His point is to a Jewish man who believes that being born a physical offspring of Abraham will automatically grant him access to the kingdom of God. Jesus is telling him that his physical birth will not get him access to the kingdom of God, there is more required than just being the physical offspring of Abraham. Jesus is a Jewish man speaking to another Jewish man. However, Christians read this as though it applies to everyone. Granted the Gentiles do have to be born of water and the Spirit but the phrase"born again" refers to the Jews who believed that their first birth (Physical) would grant them assess into the kingdom of God. The Gentiles didn't believe that simply being born would grant then access into the kingdom of God. Most probably didn't know about the kingdom of God.

in the context of Jesus instructing a member of the Sanhedrin, if He is not addressing directly Nicodemus' comment about natural birth, Nicodemus would have understood ceremonial washing with water as a symbolic act of becoming ritually clean after becoming ceremonially unclean. He probably was 'baptized' several times a week. in that context, the meaning is ceremonial cleansing, and Jesus instructs him that he must not only be washed according to the law but his heart must be cleaned. this is true. it's in this sense that we should be baptized with water, ceremonially, not worshiping the shadow and remembrance He has given us, but knowing the truth, because the Truth Himself is revealed to us.

the conversation however between these two is about birth, not ceremonial washing. the contrast between the heavenly and the earthly is emphasized. we should take hold of the first thing, without neglecting the latter, because it is by grace, not our own righteousness and obedient works, that we are saved.

i am not against H[SUB]2[/SUB]O baptism; i am for it. but i am for Christ and the mercy of God before all things.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,985
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There's the key to this problem, baptism is a work and works don't save. The whole works don't save argument is a misunderstanding of Paul's teaching on works. Paul was addressing a problem that was prevalent in his day. He was not, i repeat he was not, saying, that anything one does is a work and that can't save. Paul was addressing the Judaizers. The Judaizers were Jews who believed that came from Jerusalem and were going behind Paul teaching his converts that in addition to faith in Christ it was also necessary for them to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses. It is these works of the Law and being circumcised that Paul says don't save. Ephesians 2:8 is the prime passage used to argue this point and it like most of the passages tells us what Paul is addressing.

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. {ordained: or, prepared}
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: (Eph 2:9-16 KJV)

The works that don't save are those that Christ ablished, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, that is the Mosaic Law. We can look at Acts 15 and what happened at the Jerusalem council to see this issue addressed.

And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. (Act 15:1 KJV)
2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. {rose...: or, rose up, said they, certain}
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. {mouth: Gr. word}
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
(Act 15:1-29 KJV)


Notice verse one, there were men from Jerusalem telling the brethren they must be circumcised in order to be saved. When Paul went up to Jerusalem there were Pharisees who were believers who said the Gentiles need to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses. These are the works that Paul is saying do not save. Nowhere does Paul reject good deeds. As a matter of fact he says those who continue doing good are seeking eternal life. If works played not role in salvation then all the doing good in the world wouldn't be seeking eternal life, yet Paul says that those who are doing good are seeking eternal life, therefore doing good is seeking eternal life. This is just the opposite of what many Christians claim. Paul's argument against works was directed to specific issue of his day and he most certainly is not saying that anything a person does is a work and that these cannot save. Many Christians reject the necessity of baptism based on this flawed idea of the works argument.
You are IGNORING:

Ephesians 2:4-5 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love that He had for us,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace!

Ephesians 2:8-10 (HCSB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift—
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not from works, so that no one can boast.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works {AFTER HE SAVED US ALL BY HIMSELF AS A GIFT.}, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them.

Romans 4:3-5 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For what does the Scripture say?Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Now to the one who works, pay is not considered as a gift, but as something owed.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But to the one who does not work {Working to earn part of one's Salvation.}, but believes on Him who declares the ungodly to be righteous, his faith is credited for righteousness.

Salvation is a FREE GIFT FROM GOD, during which the Holy Spirit pours the LOVE of GOD into our hearts (Rom. 5:5). ALL of our works, including obedience to BAPTISM, spawn OUT of that Love for HIM, after HE SAVED US.

HENCE:

John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me, you will keep My commands.

And that obedience will be produced by that LOVE for HIM, including the obedience of WATER BAPTISM;
BUT the Salvation was complete when the LOVE for HIM was FIRST poured into our hearts by the Holy Spirit.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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You are right, for it is Jesus our Lord who cleanses us.
Baptism is now a symbol of a clean mind and a showing of faith for one who is a follower of Jesus so that they can accept the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Baptism in water to receive the Holy Spirit is a command given by our Lord, so we are to follow and do it.

John baptized with water for remission of sins.

We are now baptized to receive the Holy Spirit with a clear mind.

Commanded by the Lord;

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.



Matthew 28:16-20
The Great Commission

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. [SUP]17 [/SUP]When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]20 [/SUP]and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

I am not from Missouri, BUT SHOW ME, the verse that states the purpose of Water Bapism is to receive the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:13 (HCSB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

In that case the Holy Spirit is the one doing the Baptizing.

Acts 2:38 (NKJV)
[SUP]38 [/SUP] Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

There is the verse that I think you misunderstood. The Purpose of Baptism IS NOT TO RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT, but rather to, Publicly identify one's self with JESUS CHRIST for the remission of sins. The HOLY SPIRIT came into our hearts bringing deep conviction of sin and Repentance, before we ever got WET in the Waters of Baptism.

1 Thessalonians 1:5 (ISV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For the gospel we brought didn't come to you in words only, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit, and with deep conviction. Indeed, you know what kind of people we proved to be while we were with you, acting on your behalf.
 
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[SUP]Ephesians 5:25-27
[/SUP][SUP]25 [/SUP]Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, [SUP]26 [/SUP]that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, [SUP]27 [/SUP]that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish

Here it says that the washing is done by THE WORD---not physical water. Who is THE WORD?

John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [SUP]2 [/SUP]He was in the beginning with God. [SUP]3 [/SUP]All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

John 1:14 [SUP]14 [/SUP]And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

The Word is Jesus. So it's Jesus who does the washing of the church...not the physical water. The word "water" is this passage in Ephesians does not refer to physical water that we drink and bathe with, but the WORD, which is Jesus.
look at the picture again...husband,wife ...Christ, church....the marriage took place already....so that washing of water by the word would indicate living by the word...since they would have been baptised already....He is not now trying to make converts...
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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look at the picture again...husband,wife ...Christ, church....the marriage took place already....so that washing of water by the word would indicate living by the word...since they would have been baptised already....He is not now trying to make converts...
look at who washes the church -- Christ! (Ephesians 5:26)

does Christ baptize with H[SUB]2[/SUB]O?? -- no!! (Luke 3:16)

what is sprinkled on the altar for our atonement? -- His
blood!! (Hebrews 9:12)

bought by His
blood! (Acts 20:28)
sins remitted by His
blood! (Matthew 26:28)
justified by His
blood! (Romans 5:9)
redeemed by His
blood! (Ephesians 1:7)
sanctified by His
blood! (Hebrews 10:29)
reconciled by His
blood! (Revelation 5:9)

blood is thicker than H[SUB]2[/SUB]O and our skulls seem 'thicker' than both!

all
glory belongs to God!! (1 Timothy 1:17)
no​ glory belongs to earthly things!! (1 Peter 1:18-25)
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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There's the key to this problem, baptism is a work and works don't save. The whole works don't save argument is a misunderstanding of Paul's teaching on works. Paul was addressing a problem that was prevalent in his day. He was not, i repeat he was not, saying, that anything one does is a work and that can't save. Paul was addressing the Judaizers. The Judaizers were Jews who believed that came from Jerusalem and were going behind Paul teaching his converts that in addition to faith in Christ it was also necessary for them to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses. It is these works of the Law and being circumcised that Paul says don't save. Ephesians 2:8 is the prime passage used to argue this point and it like most of the passages tells us what Paul is addressing.

. . . (Eph 2:9-16 KJV)

The works that don't save are those that Christ ablished, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, that is the Mosaic Law. We can look at Acts 15 and what happened at the Jerusalem council to see this issue addressed.

. . . (Act 15:1-29 KJV)


Notice verse one, there were men from Jerusalem telling the brethren they must be circumcised in order to be saved. When Paul went up to Jerusalem there were Pharisees who were believers who said the Gentiles need to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses. These are the works that Paul is saying do not save. Nowhere does Paul reject good deeds. As a matter of fact he says those who continue doing good are seeking eternal life. If works played not role in salvation then all the doing good in the world wouldn't be seeking eternal life, yet Paul says that those who are doing good are seeking eternal life, therefore doing good is seeking eternal life. This is just the opposite of what many Christians claim. Paul's argument against works was directed to specific issue of his day and he most certainly is not saying that anything a person does is a work and that these cannot save. Many Christians reject the necessity of baptism based on this flawed idea of the works argument.


NOW, did you not FORGET SOMETHING?

WHEN WERE WE SAVED?

Ephesians 2:4-5 (NKJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

So you can stop patting yourself on the back now.
 
P

PACEMAKER

Guest
You are right, for it is Jesus our Lord who cleanses us.
Baptism is now a symbol of a clean mind and a showing of faith for one who is a follower of Jesus so that they can accept the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Baptism in water to receive the Holy Spirit is a command given by our Lord, so we are to follow and do it.

John baptized with water for remission of sins.

We are now baptized to receive the Holy Spirit with a clear mind.

Commanded by the Lord;

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.



Matthew 28:16-20
The Great Commission

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. [SUP]17 [/SUP]When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]20 [/SUP]and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
Kenneth Cadwell. Could you please give your Definition of the word "GIFT" ??
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
Kenneth Cadwell. Could you please give your Definition of the word "GIFT" ??
Salvation is a free gift given to us who believe in Him.
We don't earn our salvation by doing things, but in the same stance Jesus makes it clear what a true follower of His will do.

That is why I mention over and over again why repentance, baptism, confession, and helping others are all important.
Because our Lord makes it clear that if you are truly His sheep, and follow Him these deeds will follow.


Luke 6:46-49

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.
 
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in the context of Jesus instructing a member of the Sanhedrin, if He is not addressing directly Nicodemus' comment about natural birth, Nicodemus would have understood ceremonial washing with water as a symbolic act of becoming ritually clean after becoming ceremonially unclean. He probably was 'baptized' several times a week. in that context, the meaning is ceremonial cleansing, and Jesus instructs him that he must not only be washed according to the law but his heart must be cleaned. this is true. it's in this sense that we should be baptized with water, ceremonially, not worshiping the shadow and remembrance He has given us, but knowing the truth, because the Truth Himself is revealed to us.

the conversation however between these two is about birth, not ceremonial washing. the contrast between the heavenly and the earthly is emphasized. we should take hold of the first thing, without neglecting the latter, because it is by grace, not our own righteousness and obedient works, that we are saved.

i am not against H[SUB]2[/SUB]O baptism; i am for it. but i am for Christ and the mercy of God before all things.
you conclude the conversation is just about birth but it is about seeing and entering the kingdom of God.....you like Nicodemus miss the point.... there is no reference to natural birth by Jesus concerning born again. The moment someone says born again it is obvious they understand you are born already. Nicodemus thought he was speaking about another natural birth that is why he ask the question...
How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
and
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!
He explains ...this is the birth I am speaking about...Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!
Then he goes on to show the difference between what he was talking about and what Nicodemus was talking about

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Salvation is a free gift given to us who believe in Him.
We don't earn our salvation by doing things, but in the same stance Jesus makes it clear what a true follower of His will do.

That is why I mention over and over again why repentance, baptism, confession, and helping others are all important.
Because our Lord makes it clear that if you are truly His sheep, and follow Him these deeds will follow.


Luke 6:46-49

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.
Acts 2:38 (NKJV)
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

If we HAVE TO DO SOMETHING to receive Him, then receiving the Holy Spirit would be wages or something owed (for climbing into the baptistry or river to be Baptized in Water), and NOT A GIFT.

Romans 4:4 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Now to the one who works, pay is not considered as a gift, but as something owed.
 
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P

PACEMAKER

Guest
Salvation is a free gift given to us who believe in Him.
We don't earn our salvation by doing things, but in the same stance Jesus makes it clear what a true follower of His will do.

That is why I mention over and over again why repentance, baptism, confession, and helping others are all important.
Because our Lord makes it clear that if you are truly His sheep, and follow Him these deeds will follow.


Luke 6:46-49

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.
Kenneth Cadwell. Apparently you mis understood me. You gave me your Opinion
Not a Definition.
Could you please give your Definition of the word "GIFT" ??


Is "water baptism"Important as you said
Or Is "water baptism" a Requirement ??
for Salvation ??