Baptism symbol only ?

[Butch5]

it's really very simple.

"you must be born again"

"how? can i climb back into my mother's womb?"

"you must be born of water, and of spirit - flesh gives birth to flesh and spirit gives birth to spirit"

if you take off your "water-baptism-idolization" glasses, it becomes immediately clear that Jesus is talking about two births. that's why he says "born again." then he talks about two kinds of births - water & spirit - and contrasts them - "flesh begets flesh, spirit begets spirit"

all human flesh is mostly water. all human fetuses are born in a sac of water.
all humans come out of the womb when the water-sac breaks. the mother's water gushes out of her. this is how we know a child is about to be born.
all humans are 'born of water' in a very natural, easy-to-understand way.

you agree Jesus talks about two births.
you deny that he describes two births.
you agree Jesus contrasts two births.

i would think that a person who calls himself "newbirth" would have a better understanding of what our re-birthing is

Hi Posthuman,

Why would Jesus tell someone who came to Him that he must be born? Suppose you went to buy a car and the salesman said, you must be born to buy this car. You'd probably be like, "DUH," correct? How many people go to buy a car that haven't been born? Every person in the Bible that Jesus interacted with was born, so why would He tell then they have to be born?

The Jews thought, simply by being born they had a right to entrance into the kingdom. This is the idea that Jesus is challenging and the whole reason for the born again statement.

Also, the Granville Sharp rule indicates that water and spirit are both a part of the one (second) birth.

 

[newbirth]

Hi Posthuman,

Why would Jesus tell someone who came to Him that he must be born? Suppose you went to buy a car and the salesman said, you must be born to buy this car. You'd probably be like, "DUH," correct? How many people go to buy a car that haven't been born? Every person in the Bible that Jesus interacted with was born, so why would He tell then they have to be born?

The Jews thought, simply by being born they had a right to entrance into the kingdom. This is the idea that Jesus is challenging and the whole reason for the born again statement.

Also, the Granville Sharp rule indicates that water and spirit are both a part of the one (second) birth.

God testify of it. Christ testify of it, the word testify, out spirit testify ...only the nonbeliever denies it....
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

 

[posthuman]

Also, the Granville Sharp rule indicates that water and spirit are both a part of the one (second) birth.

the 'Granville Sharp rule' does not apply. read below quoted from theopedia's definition, and below that, the verse in Greek.

Granville Sharp's Rule is a grammatical principle applied to the translation of New Testament Greek whereby the deity of Christ is explicitly affirmed. This is specifically associated with the translation of Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1.

Titus 2:13:

• KJV -- "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ." Similarly in the 1901ASV, RSV, and also in the New World Translation of the Jehovah's Witnesses.
• NASB -- "Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus." The same sense is also seen in NIV and ESV.

In the above translations, the first implies a reference to two persons, while the second (applying the Granville Sharp rule) sees the reference to one person who is both God and savior. The same contrast may be seen in 2 Peter 1:1:

• KJV -- "to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ."
• NASB -- "To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ."

Statement of the rule

"The following rule by Granville Sharp of a century back still proves to be true: `When the copulative KAI connects two nouns of the same case, if the article HO or any of its cases precedes the first of the said nouns or participles, and is not repeated before the second noun or participle, the latter always relates to the same person that is expressed or described by the first noun or participle; i.e., it denotes a further description of the first-named person.'" (A Manual Of The Greek New Testament, Dana & Mantey, p. 147)
"Basically, Granville Sharp's rule states that when you have two nouns, which are not proper names (such as Cephas, or Paul, or Timothy), which are describing a person, and the two nouns are connected by the word 'and,' and the first noun has the article ('the') while the second does not, both nouns are referring to the same person." - James White
The basic formula (in the Greek word order) may be seen in this manner:

• Article (ho) + noun1 + and (kai) + noun2

Granville Sharp's rule says that since the definite article (ho, or its variant) precedes only the first noun and not both, then the reference is to one person -- this being the case in the verses quoted above.
Cautions in application

Detractors maintain that there are numerous examples in the Greek where Granville Sharp's rule fails to hold up, i.e. where two distinct referents are obviously intended. However, as pointed out by Daniel Wallace, this is due to a misapplication of the rule.^[1]^ What is often overlooked is that Granville Sharp distinctly noted that the rule applies when the two nouns are singular and apply to persons, not things. When these restrictions are considered, there are no exceptions to be noted in native Koine Greek constructions.
Wallace has restated Granville Sharp's rule in order to explicitly state all the restrictions and to enhance the readability of the rule.

In native Greek constructions (i.e., not translation Greek), when a single article modifies two substantives connected bykai (thus, article-substantive-kai-substantive), when both substantives are (1) singular (both grammatically and semantically), (2) personal, (3) and common nouns (not proper names or ordinals), they have the same referent. ^[2]^


[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD][TABLE="class: maintext, width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: top, width: 17%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Strong's[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 20%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Transliteration[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Greek[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]English[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Morphology[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]611 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]apekrithē[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἀπεκρίθη[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]Answered[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-AIP-3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ho[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"](ὁ)[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]-[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-NMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2424 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]Iēsous[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]Ἰησοῦς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]Jesus,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-NMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]281 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]Amēn[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]Ἀμὴν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]Truly[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Heb[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]281 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]amēn[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἀμὴν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]truly[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Heb[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3004 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]legō[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]λέγω[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]I say[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PIA-1S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]4771 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]soi[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]σοι,[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]to you,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]PPro-D2S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1437 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ean[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἐὰν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]if[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3361 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]mē[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]μή[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]not[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adv[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]5100 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]tis[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τις[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]anyone[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]IPro-NMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1080 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]gennēthē[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]γεννηθῇ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]be born[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-ASP-3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1537 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ex[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἐξ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]of[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Prep[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]5204 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hydatos[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ὕδατος[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]water[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-GNS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2532 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]kai[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]καὶ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]and[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]4151 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]Pneumatos[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]Πνεύματος,[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]of Spirit,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-GNS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3756 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ou[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]οὐ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]not[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adv[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1410 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]dynatai[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]δύναται[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]he is able[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PIM/P-3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1525 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]eiselthein[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]εἰσελθεῖν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]to enter[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-ANA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1519 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]eis[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]εἰς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]into[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Prep[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]tēn[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τὴν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]the[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-AFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]932 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]basileian[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]βασιλείαν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]kingdom[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-AFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]tou[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τοῦ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]-[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-GMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2316 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]Theou[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]Θεοῦ.[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]of God.[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-GMS
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
​

 

[Kerry]

ignorance abounds

 

[posthuman]

Why would Jesus tell someone who came to Him that he must be born? Suppose you went to buy a car and the salesman said, you must be born to buy this car. You'd probably be like, "DUH," correct? How many people go to buy a car that haven't been born? Every person in the Bible that Jesus interacted with was born, so why would He tell then they have to be born?

but Jesus did not tell Nicodemus 'you must be born'
He said to him, "you must be born again" (implying 2 births)
and then told him "you must be born of water and of spirit" (why is this only one birth?)
and further explained that "flesh begets flesh and spirit begets spirit" (contrasting 2 births)
He did not say 'water begets spirit'

so i don't understand where you are trying to lead me with this comment.

 

[VCO]

I have read several posts where people think getting baptized in water SAVES you.

No, getting baptized in water is something you do because by the Grace of GOD you were SAVED.

Getting Baptized is a WORK, and we are NOT saved by Works, but rather by the GRACE of GOD.

Ephesians 2:8-10 (HCSB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift—

[SUP]9 [/SUP] not from works, so that no one can boast.

[SUP]10 [/SUP] For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works {What we do AFTER we are SAVED.}, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them.


Malachi 3:6 (NKJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] "For I am the LORD, I do not change; Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.


Therefore if we can find ONE example of HOW God saved somebody, we will know HOW God saves EVERYONE.

Romans 4:3-4 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Now to the one who works, pay is not considered as a gift, but as something owed.


NOT Saving FAITH plus Water Baptism - as far as we know Abraham was NEVER Baptized in Water.
Abraham Believed GOD and that Genuine FAITH that was a FREE GIFT from GOD, is all that it took for Abraham to be SAVED, therefore that is HOW GOD SAVES ALL MEN. Sure genuine LOVE for GOD, produces a desire to obey HIM, but a genuine desire to Obey HIM, will NEVER produce Salvation. THAT IS A FREE GIFT FROM GOD BY HIS GRACE.

GRACE = Receiving what we do not deserve and cannot EARN.

MERCY = NOT receiving what we DO deserve.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Baptism is also you do because it was commanded by our Lord. Matthew 28, Mark 16

 

[PACEMAKER]

Matthew 28:16-20The Great Commission

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. [SUP]17 [/SUP]When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.[SUP]19 [/SUP]Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,[SUP]20 [/SUP]and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”




Here we have the great commission, and Jesus says to teach to obey all he commanded. Here in the same commission He commanded baptism to be done. In Mark 16:16 He puts it in the same category in those who are saved.

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

It does this to show that Jesus makes a point that those who are truly His sheep do as He said.
If you are not His sheep you will not do these things, and He makes that clear;

Luke 6:46-49

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

Kennethcadwell, Just how are you doing on the first and second commandments??
[h=1]Matthew 22:36-40New International Version (NIV)[/h] [SUP]36 [/SUP]“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

[SUP]37 [/SUP]Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]38 [/SUP]This is the first and greatest commandment. [SUP]39 [/SUP]And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[SUP][b][/SUP] [SUP]40 [/SUP]All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

So what number commandment is water baptism??

Why did it Not say in Mark 16:16
" That you would be Condemned If you were Not water baptized"??

 

[Hoffco]

The whole context of Jh. 3:1-21 is telling us that the first birth of our mother is the water birth; Jesus says , clearly that The "flesh" produces "flesh", but the "Spirit" produces "spirit". v.6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."v,7 "Do not marvel that I said to you, 'you must be born again' " This, to me, is very clear. It is also clear to me that the word "flesh", which represents a human, is symbolic and is not a complete description of a human being, because a human being is more than "flesh", we are also spirit. Therefore the description of man as "flesh"' is symbolic of sinfulness. And ,describing the born again person as "spirit" is symbolic and means spiritual, as opposed to sinful. As we compare this passage with other passages on the new birth ,we see this interpretation fits the Bible's over all teaching on being born again. But as we do study more on the new birth we see another symbol for water, that being the word of God; because God uses the word of God , applied by the "Spirit", to produce the new man, the new creation in Christ. Love to all, Hoffco

 

[kennethcadwell]

Kennethcadwell, Just how are you doing on the first and second commandments??
Matthew 22:36-40New International Version (NIV)

[SUP]36 [/SUP]“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

[SUP]37 [/SUP]Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]38 [/SUP]This is the first and greatest commandment. [SUP]39 [/SUP]And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[SUP][b][/SUP][SUP]40 [/SUP]All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

So what number commandment is water baptism??

Why did it Not say in Mark 16:16
" That you would be Condemned If you were Not water baptized"??

Our Lord does not number commandments like was done in the OT with the ten commandments.
What ever He tells us to do is a commandment from Him.

If you love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind which is the greatest command you will do what He said.
He said repent or parish in Luke 13:3.
He said to confess Him before men in Matthew 10 and Luke 12.
He commanded baptizing to be done in the great commission in Matthew 28 and also in Mark 16
He said to do good to others and if you don't do for others, it is the same as not doing for him. ( denying ) Matthew 25

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

The reason that baptism is not listed in the second half of this verse is because we should not need to be taught by this point that believing in the Lord, means to believe in doing what He said to.

Luke 6:46-49
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.


He says not everybody who calls Him Lord will be welcomed into the kingdom of heaven. This is because they refuse to either repent, be baptized, confess Him before others, or help others ( producing good fruit ).
They say things like none of this is needed because He accomplished everything on the cross. If these are not requested from our Lord for His followers to do He would have never said to do them, but He did.

 

[Hoffco]

Water baptism is a command of Jesus, it must be done, by and to, each believer, if time permits. But it is not absolutely needed to be saved. Yet it is a part of our salvation experience, thus Very important. It is a means of grace, saving and living grace, to glorify God in our faith and good works. It is symbolic of our dying to sin and our rising to a new life of faith and obedience to God. It symbolizes what the Holy Spirit does in saving us, we die to sin and become alive to righteousness. The pirit frees us from sin and enslaves us to God to live holy lives. Rom.6:3-7 (Spirit baptism) 6:22 Rom. 8:2 . Love to all, Hoffco

 

[Kerry]

YTou will only do what God say's if your faith is in the cross. If not you will try your best and fail and make excuses and even try try to justify your failure and is the reason why we have so many different churches.

 

[VCO]

you are the one saying that bro and that is rubbish...when you are born of flesh that is when that water breaks and it has nothing to do with your spiritual birth ...in which you are baptised and receive the promise off the HS...
. . .

ERROR: It is not "in which you are baptized"; IT IS: "by Whom you are baptized into the spiritual Body of Christ".


John 3:6 (HCSB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] ". . . whatever is born of the Spirit is spirit."


1 Corinthians 12:13 (HCSB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] "For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body . . ."

 

[Hoffco]

Peter , 1Pet.3:20-21 wants to show the importance of water baptism for believers so he uses the flood water in Noah's day as an antitype, an antisymbol, of our salvation, because the water killed the sinner in the flood, but in water baptism, the water helps to save us, not the water, but a good, public profession of our new faith and holy life in Christ; Because without confession of Christ and of our new faith and life, in Christ, we are not saved. Love to all, Hoffco

 

[Butch5]

the 'Granville Sharp rule' does not apply. read below quoted from theopedia's definition, and below that, the verse in Greek.

Granville Sharp's Rule is a grammatical principle applied to the translation of New Testament Greek whereby the deity of Christ is explicitly affirmed. This is specifically associated with the translation of Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1.

Titus 2:13:

• KJV -- "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ." Similarly in the 1901ASV, RSV, and also in the New World Translation of the Jehovah's Witnesses.
• NASB -- "Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus." The same sense is also seen in NIV and ESV.

In the above translations, the first implies a reference to two persons, while the second (applying the Granville Sharp rule) sees the reference to one person who is both God and savior. The same contrast may be seen in 2 Peter 1:1:

• KJV -- "to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ."
• NASB -- "To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ."

Statement of the rule

"The following rule by Granville Sharp of a century back still proves to be true: `When the copulative KAI connects two nouns of the same case, if the article HO or any of its cases precedes the first of the said nouns or participles, and is not repeated before the second noun or participle, the latter always relates to the same person that is expressed or described by the first noun or participle; i.e., it denotes a further description of the first-named person.'" (A Manual Of The Greek New Testament, Dana & Mantey, p. 147)
"Basically, Granville Sharp's rule states that when you have two nouns, which are not proper names (such as Cephas, or Paul, or Timothy), which are describing a person, and the two nouns are connected by the word 'and,' and the first noun has the article ('the') while the second does not, both nouns are referring to the same person." - James White
The basic formula (in the Greek word order) may be seen in this manner:

• Article (ho) + noun1 + and (kai) + noun2

Granville Sharp's rule says that since the definite article (ho, or its variant) precedes only the first noun and not both, then the reference is to one person -- this being the case in the verses quoted above.
Cautions in application

Detractors maintain that there are numerous examples in the Greek where Granville Sharp's rule fails to hold up, i.e. where two distinct referents are obviously intended. However, as pointed out by Daniel Wallace, this is due to a misapplication of the rule.^[1]^ What is often overlooked is that Granville Sharp distinctly noted that the rule applies when the two nouns are singular and apply to persons, not things. When these restrictions are considered, there are no exceptions to be noted in native Koine Greek constructions.
Wallace has restated Granville Sharp's rule in order to explicitly state all the restrictions and to enhance the readability of the rule.

In native Greek constructions (i.e., not translation Greek), when a single article modifies two substantives connected bykai (thus, article-substantive-kai-substantive), when both substantives are (1) singular (both grammatically and semantically), (2) personal, (3) and common nouns (not proper names or ordinals), they have the same referent. ^[2]^


[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD][TABLE="class: maintext, width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: top, width: 17%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Strong's[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 20%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Transliteration[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Greek[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]English[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Morphology[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]611 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]apekrithē[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἀπεκρίθη[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]Answered[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-AIP-3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ho[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"](ὁ)[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]-[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-NMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2424 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]Iēsous[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]Ἰησοῦς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]Jesus,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-NMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]281 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]Amēn[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]Ἀμὴν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]Truly[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Heb[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]281 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]amēn[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἀμὴν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]truly[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Heb[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3004 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]legō[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]λέγω[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]I say[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PIA-1S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]4771 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]soi[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]σοι,[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]to you,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]PPro-D2S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1437 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ean[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἐὰν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]if[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3361 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]mē[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]μή[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]not[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adv[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]5100 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]tis[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τις[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]anyone[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]IPro-NMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1080 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]gennēthē[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]γεννηθῇ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]be born[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-ASP-3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1537 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ex[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἐξ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]of[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Prep[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]5204 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hydatos[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ὕδατος[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]water[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-GNS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2532 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]kai[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]καὶ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]and[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]4151 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]Pneumatos[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]Πνεύματος,[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]of Spirit,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-GNS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3756 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ou[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]οὐ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]not[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adv[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1410 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]dynatai[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]δύναται[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]he is able[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PIM/P-3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1525 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]eiselthein[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]εἰσελθεῖν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]to enter[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-ANA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1519 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]eis[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]εἰς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]into[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Prep[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]tēn[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τὴν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]the[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-AFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]932 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]basileian[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]βασιλείαν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]kingdom[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-AFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]tou[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τοῦ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]-[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-GMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2316 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]Theou[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]Θεοῦ.[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]of God.[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-GMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
​

My bad on the Granville Sharp rule for some reason I had it in my head that it applied to that passage, I should have checked to verify first. However, that doesn't change the fact that the water refers to baptism. As I said, there is no reason for Jesus to even mention physical birth unless someone thought that they could enter the kingdom simply by being born, which is exactly what the Jews thought.

If Jesus was referring to the breaking of the woman's water, what purpose is served in saying it? As I pointed out, everyone who came to Jesus was born, so there's really no reason for Him to say you have to be born physically. As I said, if a car salesman said, you have to be born to buy this car a person would be like "DUH". We would look at such a statement as ridiculous. In post 305 I posted a passage from Ezekiel and Revelation showing how God uses water to bring life. There are more examples in the Scriptures of God's use of water. In the kingdom there will be a river flowing from the throne that goes to the Dead Sea and everything the water touches will live. Revelation calls it a pure river of water of life. Jesus said,

6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. (Rev 21:6 KJV)

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Rev 22:17 KJV)

Being born is the beginning of life, it's no surprise that water would be involved when we see that God has the water of life

 

[VCO]

Our Lord does not number commandments like was done in the OT with the ten commandments.
What ever He tells us to do is a commandment from Him.

If you love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind which is the greatest command you will do what He said.
He said repent or parish in Luke 13:3.
He said to confess Him before men in Matthew 10 and Luke 12.
He commanded baptizing to be done in the great commission in Matthew 28 and also in Mark 16
He said to do good to others and if you don't do for others, it is the same as not doing for him. ( denying ) Matthew 25

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

The reason that baptism is not listed in the second half of this verse is because we should not need to be taught by this point that believing in the Lord, means to believe in doing what He said to.

Luke 6:46-49
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.


He says not everybody who calls Him Lord will be welcomed into the kingdom of heaven. This is because they refuse to either repent, be baptized, confess Him before others, or help others ( producing good fruit ).
They say things like none of this is needed because He accomplished everything on the cross. If these are not requested from our Lord for His followers to do He would have never said to do them, but He did.

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized {spiritually immersed into the spiritual Body of Christ} shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


Romans 5:5 (NKJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. {The Holy Spirit also spiritually immersed into the spiritual Body of Christ, at that same time.}

John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me,
{At that very moment you are Saved, and that LOVE was poured into your heart by the Holy Spirit.
That LOVE will produce the following after you are Saved:}
you will keep My commands.

 

[Butch5]

but Jesus did not tell Nicodemus 'you must be born'
He said to him, "you must be born again" (implying 2 births)
and then told him "you must be born of water and of spirit" (why is this only one birth?)
and further explained that "flesh begets flesh and spirit begets spirit" (contrasting 2 births)
He did not say 'water begets spirit'

so i don't understand where you are trying to lead me with this comment.

Because many people don't read this in context. Jesus isn't telling Gentiles they have to be born twice. His point is to a Jewish man who believes that being born a physical offspring of Abraham will automatically grant him access to the kingdom of God. Jesus is telling him that his physical birth will not get him access to the kingdom of God, there is more required than just being the physical offspring of Abraham. Jesus is a Jewish man speaking to another Jewish man. However, Christians read this as though it applies to everyone. Granted the Gentiles do have to be born of water and the Spirit but the phrase"born again" refers to the Jews who believed that their first birth (Physical) would grant them assess into the kingdom of God. The Gentiles didn't believe that simply being born would grant then access into the kingdom of God. Most probably didn't know about the kingdom of God.

 

[Butch5]

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized {spiritually immersed into the spiritual Body of Christ} shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


Romans 5:5 (NKJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. {The Holy Spirit also spiritually immersed into the spiritual Body of Christ, at that same time.}

John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me,
{At that very moment you are Saved, and that LOVE was poured into your heart by the Holy Spirit.
That LOVE will produce the following after you are Saved:}
you will keep My commands.

Why did you insert your opinion into Mark 16:16, it says nothing about the Spirit.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized {spiritually immersed into the spiritual Body of Christ} shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


Romans 5:5 (NKJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. {The Holy Spirit also spiritually immersed into the spiritual Body of Christ, at that same time.}

John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me,
{At that very moment you are Saved, and that LOVE was poured into your heart by the Holy Spirit.
That LOVE will produce the following after you are Saved:}
you will keep My commands.

Baptizo
( This is the word used for baptized in Mark 16, and here is the definition )

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="width: 320"][TABLE]
[TR]
[TD] Strong's Number: 907[/TD]
[TD="width: 120, align: center"] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"][TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]Original Word[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]Word Origin[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]baptivzw[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]from a derivative of (911)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]Transliterated Word[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]TDNT Entry[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]Baptizo[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]1:529,92[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]Phonetic Spelling[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]Parts of Speech[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]bap-tid'-zo [/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"] Definition[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]

1. to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
2. to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe
3. to overwhelm

Not to be confused with 911, bapto. The clearest example that showsthe meaning of baptizo is a text from the Greek poet and physicianNicander, who lived about 200 B.C. It is a recipe for making picklesand is helpful because it uses both words. Nicander says that inorder to make a pickle, the vegetable should first be 'dipped'(bapto) into boiling water and then 'baptised' (baptizo) in thevinegar solution. Both verbs concern the immersing of vegetables in asolution. But the first is temporary. The second, the act ofbaptising the vegetable, produces a permanent change. When used in the New Testament, this word more often refers to ourunion and identification with Christ than to our water baptism. e.g.Mark 16:16. 'He that believes and is baptised shall be saved'.Christ is saying that mere intellectual assent is not enough. Theremust be a union with him, a real change, like the vegetable to thepickle! Bible Study Magazine, James Montgomery Boice, May 1989.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[VCO]

My bad on the Granville Sharp rule for some reason I had it in my head that it applied to that passage, I should have checked to verify first. However, that doesn't change the fact that the water refers to baptism. As I said, there is no reason for Jesus to even mention physical birth unless someone thought that they could enter the kingdom simply by being born, which is exactly what the Jews thought.
. . .

✡✞✡

Ezekiel 12:1-2 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] The word of the LORD came to me:
[SUP]2 [/SUP] “Son of man, you are living among a rebellious house. They have eyes to see but do not see, and ears to hear but do not hear, for they are a rebellious house.