BASIS FOR PURGATORY IN THE BIBLE

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Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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872
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#41
Purgatory is semi second chance, If you not make during life time you have a chance to make It up after life.

Kind of encourage not serious do the Will of God.

Some say It is from jew tradition, seem to me there is jew tradition pray for the death, but not exactly

Catholic purgatory teaching.

Some say catholic purgatory teaching come from greed, they want sale pray.
 

jameen

Senior Member
Feb 5, 2018
537
148
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Manila
#42
What will happen to a Christian who died with a stain of venial sin if he will not go to purgatory?
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
#43
The thing is accurate doctrine is essential, otherwise church devolves into this fake, worldly Christian love that we see all around us (at least I see it). Accurate doctrine will burn away that superficiality and wordliness if it is taught and practiced., but unfortunately, some mixture of true doctrine and man's doctrines are taught instead (which leavens the whole lump), because most people don't want to hear true doctrine and preachers don't want to lose paying members.
I don't think the connection between accurate doctrine and true, godly love is as necessary as you suggest. Making accurate doctrine the primary goal of the Christian faith is in fact the very thing that leads one away from that which really counts--godly love.

I know from my own observations that there are many, many Christians who think God is pleased with them because they are sure they have the only true and accurate understanding about things like once saved always saved, election, and the right way to conduct a church service, the nature of hell, etc., yet NONE of this knowledge will cause a person to become like Christ. They just give a person a false sense of being a true believer and pleasing to God.

The doctrine itself is not the problem. The thinking that the pursuit and possession of accurate doctrine is what it means to truly believe in and please God is what the problem is. Whether you are saved or not is not measured by how much you know and how accurate your knowledge is. That is measured by if you love like God loves. And his love is not the same love as our conditional, 'feeling' human love. And only a teaching about that love will lead you to that love. But instead we will continue to hammer out our differences about once saved always saved, the nature of hell, election, etc. thinking that knowing and believing in the truth about these things is what it means to believe in God and please him.

When a doctrine affects how you behave, that is when doctrine is important.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
#44
What will happen to a Christian who died with a stain of venial sin if he will not go to purgatory?
As long as you keep believing in Christ all sin is wiped away and not held to your account. It's only when a person stops believing and trusting in Christ that their sin matters in regard to salvation after they die.

There is no need to atone or make up for sin in a place called purgatory that is already cleansed and removed in this life by faith in the blood of Jesus. All believing Christians die blameless and pure before the Lord and have no debt of sin punishment on their account to be dealt with after they die.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
14,401
2,262
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#45
What will happen to a Christian who died with a stain of venial sin if he will not go to purgatory?
God does not separate sins into mortal and venial. James said that he who offends the law in one point offends the whole law.

Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
32,395
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Florida
#46
I agree, purgatory is a Catholic invention. There's no need for penance, your either in or your out.
If you were one of those that was out than purgatory would be the better option than going straight to hell. At least there you would have a chance to still get to heaven. I'm not sure if purgatory is a Catholic invention but they have embraced the concept in the past and maybe still do.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,052
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#48
It seems like everyone has forgotten a very important thing about purgatory, and getting out!

The primary way to get out of Catholic purgatory (thankful I am Protestant!) is for the relatives of the dead person to buy masses for the dead. The more masses, the quicker the loved one gets out of purgatory.

My grandmother was French during WWI, near the front lines. She could hear the guns booming in the distance. The children were emaciated and starving. So, instead of the life time plan of buying masses for their dead loved ones, they chose to use the little amount of money they had, to buy food for the children. My grandmother totally turned away from God, after seeing how callous the priests were, and how they twisted and manipulated the people to give money for masses. Meanwhile, the Vatican continued to have gold doors, and suck up money from people. I guess things haven't changed a lot from the days of indulgences, just a different money making scheme!

I remember at my Catholic uncle's funeral, a close friend and Lutheran, along with the man's son, a Baptist, took out the prayers for the dead from the service (ie mass). The priest got really angry when he saw it was gone, and said, "Surely this man committed sins that were not forgiven before he died. He needs prayer to get out of purgatory."

Which moves us to the subject of Catholic soteriology, as opposed to Protestant! Protestants believe God saves us (either with our help - synergism, or without our help monergism), and then the Holy Spirit sanctifies us till the day we die, after which comes glorification. In other words, we can KNOW we are saved!

Catholics believe they have to earn their sanctification, through works, good deeds, and I suppose the 7 sacraments. They cannot know they if they are saved or not, no matter what they do. It is a pay for salvation system, if ever there was one.

So, if you can't know if you are saved, you really do need a place to go, to keep you out of hell. Except, that no such place exists in the Bible. As for the OPs little twisted scripture, neither clear enough or often enough to make a doctrine out of it. Let alone venial and mortal sins, also not in the Bible.

It kind of makes me wonder why on earth they bother with Jesus at all? If Jesus' once for all sacrifice, as the perfect Lamb of God was not enough, no amount of masses is going to get any dead person out of purgatory. I was reading an article today by RC Sproule about double predestination. He talked about the option of universal reprobration, which nobody believes. Well, thinking about this thread, and the Catholic Church, I think RC got it wrong! The Catholic Church puts 99.9% of its followers in a hell called purgatory, which they can never get out of. If that isn't universal reprobation, I don't know what is!

"But when this priest [Jesus] had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." Hebrews 10:12-14.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
9,389
872
113
#49
It is in the Bible. In a book that Luther does not wish to include as God inspired Scriptures.

2nd Maccabees Chapter 12:39 On the following day, since the task had now become urgent, Judas and his companions went to gather up the bodies of the fallen and bury them with their kindred in their ancestral tombs.

40 But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had fallen.

41 They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden.

42 Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.g

43 He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection in mind;

44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.

45 But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.

46 Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be absolved from their sin.

Remember that it is only in the Book of Maccabees you can find the story of Hanukkah which is celebrated by Jews during December.



Agree and this is why Judas Maccabees pray for the dead.
This is history, not command, It doesn't say the Lord command to pray for the dead.

Like 2 Samuel 12 tell how David kill Uriah, is that mean God command us to kill the weak?

David kill uriah is a sin, It is a mistake, like Jews pray for the dead, It is a sin

Catholic do what ever she can to Find a hole, to Lie, to make un reasonable reason who know there are a people that not pray asking wisdom from the Lord AS her liar target.

Devil, the father of liar behind all These teaching.
 

jaybird88

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2015
5,507
481
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#50
This is history, not command, It doesn't say the Lord command to pray for the dead.

Like 2 Samuel 12 tell how David kill Uriah, is that mean God command us to kill the weak?

David kill uriah is a sin, It is a mistake, like Jews pray for the dead, It is a sin

Catholic do what ever she can to Find a hole, to Lie, to make un reasonable reason who know there are a people that not pray asking wisdom from the Lord AS her liar target.

Devil, the father of liar behind all These teaching.
how in the world is praying for the well being of a lost loved one the work of the devil? this is an act of love and compassion and im sorry but that is not how Satan works. if a person loses a loved one, feels nothing, and never thinks of praying for them, thats Satan at his best.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
9,389
872
113
#51
how in the world is praying for the well being of a lost loved one the work of the devil? this is an act of love and compassion and im sorry but that is not how Satan works. if a person loses a loved one, feels nothing, and never thinks of praying for them, thats Satan at his best.
Yep, first we have to tell the truth. Who know they repent. Unfortunatelly some people think If we say purgatory is wrong they consider hatred.

To tell purgatory wrong is love, because It warn other not follow the teaching and go to hell.

To say purgatory right is hatred.
 

jameen

Senior Member
Feb 5, 2018
537
148
43
33
Manila
#52
What will happen to the atonement of Judas for the dead he has done and where will these dead go if there is no purgatory?


2nd Maccabees Chapter 12:39 On the following day, since the task had now become urgent, Judas and his companions went to gather up the bodies of the fallen and bury them with their kindred in their ancestral tombs.

40 But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had fallen.

41 They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden.

42 Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.g

43 He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection in mind;

44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.

45 But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.

46 Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be absolved from their sin.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
9,389
872
113
#53
What will happen to the atonement of Judas for the dead he has done and where will these dead go if there is no purgatory?


2nd Maccabees Chapter 12:39 On the following day, since the task had now become urgent, Judas and his companions went to gather up the bodies of the fallen and bury them with their kindred in their ancestral tombs.

40 But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had fallen.

41 They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden.

42 Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.g

43 He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection in mind;

44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.

45 But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.

46 Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be absolved from their sin.
Simple, bible say believer go to heaven, unbeliever go to hell.
 

rlm68

Active member
Jul 23, 2018
486
118
43
#54
To each their own what they choose to accept and believe.

With that said and out of the way, in my opinion, Purgatory is a scam!!


Yes, I am not a big fan of Catholicism and believe they meddled in the Bible during their tenure of putting it together. But that is neither here nor there, and we are discussing purgatory.

So, why do i believe it is a scam?

Someone can live like the Adversary and his imps in life, and after death go to a holding cell before getting perma lock down, while your family members buy your way to heaven!!

First of all, Heaven is a gift from God by our having faith in God. None of which requires any money, because God paid the price and it is FREE!! So, the act of buying someone out of purgatory is a flat out lie. And for the Catholic church to preach it and take people's money is a flat out scam.

You have to gain heaven by yourself through faith, not by the actions of others. If you live like demons while on earth, you will live with demons for all of eternity!!
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
9,389
872
113
#55
To each their own what they choose to accept and believe.

With that said and out of the way, in my opinion, Purgatory is a scam!!


Yes, I am not a big fan of Catholicism and believe they meddled in the Bible during their tenure of putting it together. But that is neither here nor there, and we are discussing purgatory.

So, why do i believe it is a scam?

Someone can live like the Adversary and his imps in life, and after death go to a holding cell before getting perma lock down, while your family members buy your way to heaven!!

First of all, Heaven is a gift from God by our having faith in God. None of which requires any money, because God paid the price and it is FREE!! So, the act of buying someone out of purgatory is a flat out lie. And for the Catholic church to preach it and take people's money is a flat out scam.

You have to gain heaven by yourself through faith, not by the actions of others. If you live like demons while on earth, you will live with demons for all of eternity!!
Yep, If one can pay for his family out of purgatory, then rich family have more chance then poor.

Bible say It is easier for tha camel go to the eyes of the nedle than rich man go to heaven.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
15,778
1,502
113
#56
What will happen to the atonement of Judas for the dead he has done and where will these dead go if there is no purgatory?


2nd Maccabees Chapter 12:39 On the following day, since the task had now become urgent, Judas and his companions went to gather up the bodies of the fallen and bury them with their kindred in their ancestral tombs.

40 But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had fallen.

41 They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden.

42 Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.g

43 He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection in mind;

44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.

45 But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.

46 Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be absolved from their sin.
Why would you think non scripture can inform us as if it was scripture? And Catholics use idols images called teraphims to put a face on what they what they must call "patron saints" (3500 available) and scripture calls "workers with familiar spirits" as disembodied spirit gods.When the legion(many) comes up And last but not least since when was money( two thousand silver drachmas) used to provide a expiatory sacrifice?
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
#57
What will happen to the atonement of Judas for the dead he has done...
Nothing.
It was meaningless.



...and where will these dead go if there is no purgatory?
They are in Hades.

22“Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23“In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom."-Luke 16:22-23

If those men had been righteous they would have gone to Paradise.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
#58
Purgatory is just another example of why there is a deep and wide chasm between Catholicism and Protestantism that makes contact between the two impossible. And it needs to stay that way.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
20,702
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54
#60
I have often heard Roman Catholics try to build a scriptural case for purgatory based on 1 Corinthians 3:13-15, but the problem with that argument is that the context is in regards to the testing of works, not the burning of men.

The false doctrine of purgatory is a fatal deception which denies the sufficiency of Christ’s atonement for sin on the cross and blinds Roman Catholics from knowing and trusting in the sufficiency of Jesus Christ alone.