Being born of water and Spirit

ResidentAlien · May 17, 2022

The "one" manuscript is the one I mentioned which is highly questionable. It was produced after an uproar ensued when Erasmus left the passage out of his first two editions of the TR.

In total, there are five very late manuscripts which have it: less than 1%. Erasmus left it out for a reason.

peldom10 · May 17, 2022

Runningman said:

Trying to replace water baptism with Holy Spirit baptism is not biblical.

Through repentance and water baptism is the process by which we receive Holy Spirit ( infusion ) to some...Holy Spirit baptism.
Symbolic of that interpretation is the fact that a dove lit on the shoulder of Christ when He was baptized.
The Holy Spirit cannot be in any place with sin. Repentance and sin cleansing by water baptism is absolute.
Without one of them ...sin is present.

peldom10 · May 17, 2022

timed out.....#222......correction......

Without either one of them........sin is present.

Evmur · May 17, 2022

Runningman said:

If we have faith in Christ we will have faith in everything He said and not only the the things He did. Christ said water baptism is righteous, part of being born of water and Spirit, and is a commandment in the great commission.

Part of why water baptism is so unclear to so many people is that it isn't mentioned consistently as a requirement for forgiveness of sins, salvation, eternal life, etc. There is enough material in the Bible to build a case for salvation through faith alone and there is certainly enough material to build a case for the requirement of baptism. We need to accept both and unite the requirement of water and faith.

Where I am currently at is that water baptism is necessary for the salvation of the glorified resurrected body. Jesus told us repeatedly to have faith in Him for salvation and then only mentioned water baptism a bit.

My line of thinking goes like this: if Jesus said "be born of water and Spirit" then what happened if I am only born of Spirit? That means my soul is born again. A soul born of God's Spirit can't be unsaved. What if I am only born of water? Like a live birth through amniotic fluid, water baptism is our physical body dying and being resurrected. Water and Spirit is therefore physical salvation of the resurrected body and soul salvation.

John 1:12,13
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3:5-7
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Now consider what Jesus said below:

Mark 16:16
16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

To reverse engineer Mark 16:16, Jesus said you if you believe then you won't be damned which means you won't be judged for your sins which means salvation. However, believing and water baptism is salvation, too, but it's salvation of both the soul and something else... in my view that's water baptism for the physical body. I already know the rebuttal about Mark 16:16 and there isn't enough evidence to not accept it as truth.

For Romans 6:4,5... In the likeness of His death (going down into the water like you're being buried in the ground like someone who died... and then rising up out of the water as if raising from the dead) except you don't actually die and don't actually get resurrected yet. Death is later and resurrection is later too. Romans 6:4,5 says water baptism is necessary for resurrection.

Romans 6:4,5
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

For 1 Peter 3:21... it point blank says that water baptism saves by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. That means if you are water baptized then you'll be saved via a bodily resurrection.

1 Peter 3:21
21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

For 1 Corinthians 15:29... the answer to this question is that immersion in water baptism is pointless unless there is a resurrection.

1 Cor. 15:29
29Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Water baptism is an ordinance of the church, not a sacrament.
Sacraments [supposedly] impart grace
Ordinances are praise and testimony of grace received.

Runningman · May 17, 2022

Evmur said:

Jesus said being born of "water and Spirit" are for entering the kingdom of God per John 3:5. What do you think the Kingdom of God is? I think I know, but I am curious what your perspective is. My perspective is the kingdom of God is a reference to the millennial kingdom.

Evmur · May 17, 2022

Runningman said:

get back to you on that Rm

peldom10 · May 17, 2022

Evmur said:

Wrong!!! Can't substitute ...sacrament...for commandment!

Look again...this is God's commandment;

Baptism is Required

Peter 3: 21.... whereunto even baptism doth also now save us...

John 3:5 .......Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Acts 2;38-....Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22;16... And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Galations 3:26...... For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

KJV Marrk 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

KJV Matthew 3:14... But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15. Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now, for thus it becometh us to fulfil all rightesousness. Then He suffered Him.

KJV Matthew 28:19..... Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:.

Acts 8:12-18: But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.

John 3; 22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

Quote from Billy Graham that is note worthy;
....Also, to clarify I did not say remission of sin takes place at repentance. Scripture makes it clear that it occurs upon obedience to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. Each is a step of faith, along with receiving the Holy Ghost, in the process of one's spiritual rebirth

.."Paul explains the doctrinal significance of what occurs when one is baptized.His explanation is found in his letter to those who had already been obedient to the command.

Paul tells the Roman Christians what actually occurred when they were/are baptized; they were baptized into His death. Being buried with Jesus into His death resulted in their sin being destroyed.

Even though Paul explains this concept, the NEW AGE RELIGION TEACHING is......... that water baptism is nothing other than a mere public display.......... And that is so far removed from the truth.

Keep in mind that Satan knows if he can continue to perpetuate that lie ...... he can keep people from entering the kingdom of God. Thus He has proven scripture which says ...in the end times there will be ...great delusions.....they are here.

Conclusion....teaching that baptism is not necessary is violation of Rev. 22;19.... And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. (Also two other books of the Bible).

GaryA · May 17, 2022

peldom10 said:

When are you going to correct the reference?

When are you going to post the entire verse?

That parenthetical part is important and necessary to understand what that verse is actually saying.

Evmur · May 18, 2022

peldom10 said:

Wrong!!! Can't substitute ...sacrament...for commandment!

Look again...this is God's commandment;

Baptism is Required

Peter 3: 21.... whereunto even baptism doth also now save us...

John 3:5 .......Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Acts 2;38-....Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22;16... And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Galations 3:26...... For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

KJV Marrk 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

KJV Matthew 3:14... But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15. Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now, for thus it becometh us to fulfil all rightesousness. Then He suffered Him.

KJV Matthew 28:19..... Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:.

Acts 8:12-18: But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.

John 3; 22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

Quote from Billy Graham that is note worthy;
....Also, to clarify I did not say remission of sin takes place at repentance. Scripture makes it clear that it occurs upon obedience to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. Each is a step of faith, along with receiving the Holy Ghost, in the process of one's spiritual rebirth

.."Paul explains the doctrinal significance of what occurs when one is baptized.His explanation is found in his letter to those who had already been obedient to the command.

Paul tells the Roman Christians what actually occurred when they were/are baptized; they were baptized into His death. Being buried with Jesus into His death resulted in their sin being destroyed.

Even though Paul explains this concept, the NEW AGE RELIGION TEACHING is......... that water baptism is nothing other than a mere public display.......... And that is so far removed from the truth.

Keep in mind that Satan knows if he can continue to perpetuate that lie ...... he can keep people from entering the kingdom of God. Thus He has proven scripture which says ...in the end times there will be ...great delusions.....they are here.

Conclusion....teaching that baptism is not necessary is violation of Rev. 22;19.... And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. (Also two other books of the Bible).

Simon Magus was baptised.

Baptism is for justification, to fulfil all righteousness. It is our testimony, our confession, before the world and the devil that we have died with Christ, have been buried with Him and are now raised to newness of life.

It is an ordinance of the church and commanded by Christ Himself. Therefore if we would PROVE we are His disciples we will be baptised.

But we will be saved and baptized in the Holy Ghost without water baptism. This is shown in the case of Cornelius and his household.

Beware of anything you can do in order to be saved. All God requires for salvation is faith.

Evmur · May 18, 2022

Runningman said:

I do believe the Kingdom of God/Heaven are synonymous with the Millennial reign. But now is the Kingdom both the heavenly reign with Christ and the earthly Jewish reign with Christ so some consideration must be given to the perspective that Jesus was addressing a Jew.

We all must be born again. If applied strictly is Jesus then saying no Jews but those baptised with water will be in the Millennial reign? Does He make a distinction between being in the Kingdom and REIGNING in the Kingdom.

Lots to consider there.

peldom10 · May 18, 2022

Evmur said:

Simon Magus was baptised.

Baptism is for justification, to fulfil all righteousness. It is our testimony, our confession, before the world and the devil that we have died with Christ, have been buried with Him and are now raised to newness of life.

It is an ordinance of the church and commanded by Christ Himself. Therefore if we would PROVE we are His disciples we will be baptised.
baptiBu be savedt we will andzed in the
Holy Ghost without water baptism. This is shown in the case of Cornelius and his household.

Beware of anything you can do in order to be saved. All God requires for salvation is faith.

Not true. Baptism is required. Why mix the two?

Separate issue...here we are dealing with requirement of baptism....for sin cleansing.

Evmur · May 19, 2022

peldom10 said:

Away on it. Jesus was baptised.

peldom10 · May 19, 2022

Evmur said:

Simon Magus was baptised.

Baptism is for justification, to fulfil all righteousness. It is our testimony, our confession, before the world and the devil that we have died with Christ, have been buried with Him and are now raised to newness of life.

It is an ordinance of the church and commanded by Christ Himself. Therefore if we would PROVE we are His disciples we will be baptised.

But we will be saved and baptized in the Holy Ghost without water baptism. This is shown in the case of Cornelius and his household.

Beware of anything you can do in order to be saved. All God requires for salvation is faith.

You can't advocate for it and against it. Make a choice....see God's word.

Evmur · May 20, 2022

peldom10 said:

I am for it and not against it. I am for obeying all our Lord's commands. It is an ordinance of the church. What I reject is your assertion that it is necessary to salvation and/or anything is got by it accept the joy of having obeyed the Lord.

It does not remove sin.

The RCC got control of the church by making it a sacrament whereby salvation is conferred by baptism. Since they also decided baptism could only be administered by a priest or bishop.

The RCC doesn't baptise anyway, they sprinkle, nor is it baptism unto repentance since babies do not repent. Anyone can claim to be christian upon confession of baptism.

peldom10 · May 20, 2022

Runningman said:

I'm researching the Comma Johanneum now and there are Greek manuscripts that contain it in 1 John 5:7; there is at least one Latin-Greek manuscript that pre-dates the first edition of the Textus Receptus from year 1516. The earliest is the Greek manuscript containing the Comma Johanneum, called GA 629, is a Latin-Greek manuscript dated to 1362.

Anyway, it seems like this debate has raged for literal centuries and there are evidences produced by both sides to accept or reject the Comma Johanneum based on the opinion of what is considered to be a "highly questionable manuscript." I definitely don't feel like getting in that debate, but since you bring it up just thought I'd share with you what I've found.

Keep the faith of scriptures.....those manuscripts does not change God's word.

peldom10 · May 20, 2022

Evmur said:

I am for it and not against it. I am for obeying all our Lord's commands. It is an ordinance of the church. What I reject is your assertion that it is necessary to salvation and/or anything is got by it accept the joy of having obeyed the Lord.

It does not remove sin.

The RCC got control of the church by making it a sacrament whereby salvation is conferred by baptism. Since they also decided baptism could only be administered by a priest or bishop.

The RCC doesn't baptise anyway, they sprinkle, nor is it baptism unto repentance since babies do not repent. Anyone can claim to be christian upon confession of baptism.

It is not an ordinance of the church.
It is God's word.

It is not my word......It is God's word...you reject.

mailmandan · May 20, 2022

mailmandan said:

Your red X doesn't answer my questions peldom10. Would you like to prroperly answer my questions?

DavidTree · May 20, 2022

ResidentAlien said:

Two reasons:
#1 the LORD said = "to fulfill all righteousness"
#2 Outward sign to the watching world, especially the Jew.

Does H2O wash away sins??? = NEVER

Does faith is the shed Blood of Christ and His Resurrection? = ALWAYS

Why(again) water baptize? because of what it is connected to from Genesis forward to the Coming of Messiah and the Promises.

peldom10 · May 20, 2022

GaryA said:

I can't change God's word........................... like you think you can.

Runningman · May 21, 2022

peldom10 said:

Yeah. People come up with all sorts of arguments when they want to wiggle their way out of water baptism.

Being born of water and Spirit

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