Being born of water and Spirit

Pilgrimshope · May 21, 2022

“Outward sign to the watching world, especially the Jew.”

doesn’t even sniff being scriptural there’s not even a suggestion of this in scripture

“John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

even though you reject baptism and what it’s for it’s still for the same thing it’s always been for remission of sins

rather than making the thought “ water means nothing “ try looking at what God said baptism is for

“be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins”

what your missing is if I told you you need to go get baptized in water and I will remit your sins then it’s just water and meaningless . But if God says go get baptized in water in Jesus name and I’ll remit your sins then it’s not just water d it will wash away your sins

because your acting in faith.

God set baptism up and sent John and the. The apostles out to baotize for repentance and remission of sins in Jesus name it’s simple.

It’s for what it says it’s for not an outward sign to others lol like a social club. It’s for what Gods word says it’s for no amount of corslcrs will ever erase the straight forward statements made by scripture

wha ya baptism for ? Repentance and remission of sins in Jesus name . What is it for tomorrow ? Same yesterday !? Same

did God tell us to do anything and he would remit our sins and save us ? Yes believe the gospel and get baptized in Jesus name

is it different for a Jew or gentile no same purpose, not to show everyone I’m Christian but for the purpose God plainly clearly says

DavidTree · May 21, 2022

Pilgrimshope said:

OK - let's correct this error which you said: "doesn’t even sniff being scriptural there’s not even a suggestion of this in scripture"

Here are TWO faithful Witnesses who were there when the bold public proclamation of John spread everywhere.

The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. As it is written in the Prophets:
“Behold, I send My messenger before Your face,
Who will prepare Your way before You.”
“The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
‘Prepare the way of the Lord;
Make His paths straight.’ ”

John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Then all the land of Judea, and those from Jerusalem, went out to him and were all baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins.
Mark 1:1-5

Then they came again to Jerusalem. And as He was walking in the temple, the chief priests, the scribes, and the elders came to Him. And they said to Him, “By what authority are You doing these things? And who gave You this authority to do these things?”

But Jesus answered and said to them, “I also will ask you one question; then answer Me, and I will tell you by what authority I do these things: The baptism of John—was it from heaven or from men? Answer Me.”

And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ He will say, ‘Why then did you not believe him?’ But if we say, ‘From men’ ”—they feared the people, for all counted John to have been a prophet indeed. So they answered and said to Jesus, “We do not know.”
And Jesus answered and said to them, “Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things.”
Matthew ch21

You remember what the Word says about "two or more witnesses" - right........

FreeGrace2 · May 21, 2022

Runningman said:

These verses teach that those who believe on Christ are sons of God, and that being born again is from God, not from man.

Quoting only these verses misses the whole point and leads to a very false doctrine. So let's look at the actual context.

3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again. ”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

In v.3 Jesus tells Nic that in order to see or enter (v.5) the kingdom of God a person must be "born again".
So, in v.4 Nic is confused and thinks that Jesus was saying a person must be physically born twice.
So Jesus clarifies His comment about what being "born again" refers to in v.5 regarding being born of water and the Spirit.
Then, in v.6, just to be a clear as possible, Jesus clearly explains the difference between being born of water and the Spirit. He explains what He means by being "born of water" from v.5 as "flesh giving birth to flesh". OK, that is physical birth.

Then, He explains what "born of the Spirit" from v.5 means, which is being born spiritually, which is regeneration or being born again, or being "made alive" (Eph 2:5).

We don't have to consider what Jesus said here, because Mark 16:9-20 is NOT FOUND in the earliest and most reliable manuscripts.

iow, v.9-20 were ADDED LATER by some unknown scribe. So don't be stupid and drink poison or handle poisonous snakes, as the verses below mention.

17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;
18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

Paul never "picked up a viper". He picked up firewood for a fire and a viper was in the firewood and bit him. That's quite different than intentionally picking up a poisonous snake, or intintionally drinking deadly poison.

So, please don't believe the false teaching that John 3:5 refers to water baptism by "born of water".

When a woman is close to giving birth, a large amount of amniotic fluid is released, and that is described as "her water broke".

So let's get real and consider the whole context where Jesus clearly spoke of both physical and spiritual birth in v.3-6.

There is NOTHING about water baptism in this context.

Pilgrimshope · May 21, 2022

DavidTree said:

brother seriously ? Your making the argument baptism is for a public proclamation by the person who gets baptized

nothing in this comment suggests that in any way John came baptizing because he is the baptizer foretold in those scriptures sent by God to offer knowledge of the remission of sins , which is required in order for the gospel of the kingdom to make any sense.

It’s why John was born and sent to baptize for repentance and remission of sins .

you on the other hand are saying “ baptism is to fulfill all
Righteousness “ and make a public proclamation “

that’s not biblical is what I’m saying what is biblical is this

“And he asked for a writing table, and wrote, saying, His name is John. And they marvelled all. And all they that heard them laid them up in their hearts, saying, What manner of child shall this be! And the hand of the Lord was with him.

And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, Blessed be the Lord God of Israel;

….And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: For thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways; To give knowledge of salvation unto his people By the remission of their sins,

Through the tender mercy of our God; Whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us, To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, To guide our feet into the way of peace.

And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his shewing unto Israel.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭1:63, 66-80‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

And there went out unto him all the land of Judæa, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:4-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the people are sinners d they are acknowledging it. They believe that Gods mercy and Remission of thier sins is coming forth, so they gladly do what the messenger of God is saying and they will have what he’s promised . It’s for repentance and remission of sin

you’ve identified this to be why a sinner gets baptized ? Or why John was puzzled that Jesus without sin was getting baptized ? He didn’t need remission he was baptized to “ fulfill all righteousness “ it’s something g mankind does for remission of sins Jesus to fulfill the righteousness of man for baptized as an example for us.

that’s not why the people were getting baptized though they were getting baptized for repentance and remission of sin based on Gods promise.

“And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. And straightway coming up out of the water,

he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

and there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you’ve identified why Jesus was baptized “ to fulfill all righteousness “ but your rejecting why the people are all getting baptized there beforehand and conflating the two.

John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

And there went out unto him all the land of Judæa, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:4-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Its the same here after Jesus is taken to heaven s baptized then with the spirit like John had said he would.

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

baptism has a purpose it is for repentance and the remission of sins of a person who’s acknowledged thier sins and faith in Jesus having died for them.

it isnt for anyone else to see publicly it’s not to please thy crowd or be an example for others it has a singular meaning and purpose and is understood through the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

It has nothing to do with a public display and we aren’t sinless like Jesus we don’t do it just to do what’s right , we do it for remission of sins believing the gospel ….

basics are best accepted then when we find something mysterious and not so plainly revealed we can use our energy to investigate those matters baltism is Christianity 101 and is established in the beginning of the gospel and continued through the gospel and after Jesus was glorified and sent the Holy Ghost to all believers

baptism has never changed though before or after that happened it is for the remission of sins of a believer again of course anything we hear and reject isn’t faith.

before the cross and after baptism is always the same that God established there’s no reason for us to try to change it or make it into something it’s not.

find a single scripture that’s comparable to this that actually says what baptism is for

“Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,”

but I’m asking you to find a scripture connecting baptism to doing it for the purpose of a public display ? Or any other reason than what’s basically , fundamentally and repetitively clearly stated before and after the cross

there are no scriptures saying baptism is for anything other than what it says it’s baptism into christs death burial and resurrection for our sins. Simple act of faith that is subverted when we reject what’s there and argue it into oblivion trying to explain something that’s already explained the meaning and true impact of baptism is doing in the epistles

but you can’t get past the basic point of what baptism is done and practiced for by the church. Your pitting water against the blood when God established both to agree

we believe one and practice the other based on our belief…..we believe in the blood we don’t have to shed any , we act in baptism based on our belief of what he said it means , in other words faith

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

………Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38, 41‬ ‭

trying to remove water for some odd reason to a practice established by God through the first baptizer John and practiced by the apostles and disciples afterwards makes no sense

if we let baltism be what It is it makes perfect sense why we are submerged and raise up from the water like Jesus was ….

.but to each his own I reckon I’m too old to go on goose chases I prefer to just accept basics and then can Learn what the basics mean to me and shape what I’m supposed to believe so I believe the basic part of baptism ( it’s for remission of sins ) so now what can I understand about it ?

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death,

we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-6, 11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:11-12‬ ‭

or Maybe this aspect and further relevance

“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:27-29‬ ‭KJV‬

It if I have to constantly rly explain the basics of baptism away and go
I’m circles avoiding all this plain word I’ll never make the connection and learn why people get baptized and how it applies to our ever growing faith , how relevant Gods word says it is

I have to always stop because I’ve concluded “ baptism in water is just a public display “ ot then makes no sense anything they have taught about baptism

DavidTree · May 21, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

John 3:1-21

Pilgrimshope said:

What i said is 100% Truth and you prove it each time you post scriptures.

As a matter of FACT, our LORD and Savior told me so.......Matthew ch3

Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. And John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?”

But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.”
Then he allowed Him.

By the Way = i love our discourse together

Runningman · May 21, 2022

DavidTree said:

John just confessed he requires a water baptism by Christ in Matthew 3, “I need to be baptized by You…”.The baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is later commanded by Christ and confirmed elsewhere in scripture like Acts 19.

Pilgrimshope · May 21, 2022

DavidTree said:

brother you just go in a circle and avoid everything I tske the time to share from scripture and everything I’ve made clear lol and the. You just claim that you speak truth and quote a verse that doesn’t support anything

I get frustrated by this particular subject discussing with you you just go
In endless circles and avoid all e plain basics ……

I love you and discussing with you on almost any other subject haha but this baptism thing is frustrating as a rubix cube discussing with you.

not an insult In any way but I’m this way

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38‬ ‭

from a scripture like this I’m now wondering “ I wonder how baptism remits our sins tangibly and functionally ? How does it relate to My faith that Jesus died for My sins ? I wonder if being buried and raised up has any significance ? I wonder if Jesus dying for my sins , relates to baptism for remission of sins ? Hmm let me investigate because now I realize baptism is for “ repentance and remission of sins “ now the “hows “and “whys “ of it become available in the epistles doctrine about baptism

if I can’t accept the basic part the rest isn’t gonna make any sense if I accept it the rest will make sense

but I do Love you dearly and consider you a brother in the lord and enjoy our other discussions a lot this one just drags on and on and on

I’m basic I try to build on what’s there , with what else is there and never reject what’s there d made plain and fundamental in the gospel and beyond

but to each person thier own conclusion is the law of Mans freedom
And faith

DavidTree · May 21, 2022

Pilgrimshope said:

brother you just go in a circle and avoid everything I tske the time to share from scripture and everything I’ve made clear lol and the. You just claim that you speak truth and quote a verse that doesn’t support anything

I get frustrated by this particular subject discussing with you you just go
In endless circles and avoid all e plain basics ……

I love you and discussing with you on almost any other subject haha but this baptism thing is frustrating as a rubix cube discussing with you.

not an insult In any way but I’m this way

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38‬ ‭

from a scripture like this I’m now wondering “ I wonder how baptism remits our sins tangibly and functionally ? How does it relate to My faith that Jesus died for My sins ? I wonder if being buried and raised up has any significance ? I wonder if Jesus dying for my sins , relates to baptism for remission of sins ? Hmm let me investigate because now I realize baptism is for “ repentance and remission of sins “ now the “hows “and “whys “ of it become available in the epistles doctrine about baptism

if I can’t accept the basic part the rest isn’t gonna make any sense if I accept it the rest will make sense

but I do Love you dearly and consider you a brother in the lord and enjoy our other discussions a lot this one just drags on and on and on

I’m basic I try to build on what’s there , with what else is there and never reject what’s there d made plain and fundamental in the gospel and beyond

but to each person thier own conclusion is the law of Mans freedom
And faith

Every verse in the Bible connects to TRUTH.
Truth builds upon ITSELF as there is no other Foundation then that which has been laid down by God = Jesus Christ.

Since water baptism is first mentioned thru John the Baptist in the beginning of the Gospel.
AND
the LORD confirms your Brother DavidTree by saying "to fulfill all righteousness" - you need to find out 'why, what and 'where'.

CLUE: start in Genesis

DavidTree · May 21, 2022

Runningman said:

100% CORRECT = Now THINK THINK THINK Scripture only

AND, when your brain fizzles from thinking(mine does) then PRAY PRAY PRAY for understanding

Peace my Brother and Good to hear from You Today

Pilgrimshope · May 21, 2022

DavidTree said:

“the LORD confirms your Brother DavidTree by saying "to fulfill all righteousness" -“

yeah like I said you solved the riddle
Of why Jesus without sin got baptized

“But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness.

Then he suffered him. And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭3:14-16‬ ‭

your saying “ Jesus got baptized to fulfill all righteousness because he had no sin to remit “ I agree Jesus was baptized because it’s a requirement of man.

what you arent able to hear is why all the repentant sinners got baptized

“John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. And there went out unto him all the land of Judæa, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:4-

that’s why it was surprising to John that Jesus got baptized for remission of sin , he had no sin but he did it “ to fulfill all righteousness and show an example to his followers after how we get baptized for remission of sins , receive the Holy Ghost and become children of God and hiers of abrahams promise. Jesus became one of us

“Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭3:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

notice Jesus was baptized and went beneath the water and when he was raised up the spirit came to him ? That’s showing this example

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

There’s always baptism and also receiving the spirit baptism is just what it’s always been it’s practiced in water, the spirit also it comes from heaven to the believer just as it did Jesus.

The same here different order same principles spirit and water

“While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:44-48‬ ‭

They received the spirit first and then Peter commanded baptism in water which we already understand it’s been established ( acts 2:38, mark1:4-5) is for repentance and remission of sins.

why Jesus was baptized in water ? To fulfill all righteousness . True

why sinners who believe the gospel are baptized in water ? Well established and repetitively stated for repentance and remission of sins. If that’s true then this understanding part about baptism and sin being remitted makes sense

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4, 6-7, 11-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this also is saying baptism is about the remission of sin and deeper it’s dominion over us we get baptized into his death because we believe “ Jesus died for my sins and rose from death to life again and lives now and is with me “

He died for my sins , I get baptized into his name because I believe it’s true. It’s deeper and more tangible effects to my indersrsnding then become apparent more so again baptism is about the remission of sins in christs death burial and resurrection

“in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:11-12‬ ‭

to have faith in gods operation we have to acknowledge it at a basic finds metal point when he establishes it for its purpose. Note again this is a deeper view of burial in baptism and remission of sins

“And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

remember Romans saying this ?

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him,”

We are taking his name , his righteous life , his death for sin and his resurrection to eternal life upon ourselves consciously because we believe by faith. It’s a true and important spiritual ordinance with incredible significance to Christians. Further it is the source of the inheritance and making of Gods children of all nations

“For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:26-29‬ ‭

notice how baptism is sown into the fabric of much of Paul’s doctrine ? And is well explained it’s deeper meaning to a believer but if we aren’t willing to say “ yes rbis is what it means pauls revealing it to us our this remission of sins through baptism , and new life and identification in his name. To the believer who gets baptized not for anyone else’s sake but for the conscience of the believer

Receiving the Holy Ghost isn’t the same as baptism for remission of sins that is what we get baptized in water for remission of sins it’s consistent and well established

Brandknew · May 21, 2022

Wow great topic. For me water baptism is to allow the world to know you have made the choice to follow Jesus but said to say some people just get wet. Baptism of Spirit wow great things through whole Bible. Are we talking about Baptism of Holy Spirit? Like at Pentacost

DavidTree · May 21, 2022

Pilgrimshope said:

“the LORD confirms your Brother DavidTree by saying "to fulfill all righteousness" -“

yeah like I said you solved the riddle
Of why Jesus without sin got baptized

“But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness.

Then he suffered him. And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭3:14-16‬ ‭

your saying “ Jesus got baptized to fulfill all righteousness because he had no sin to remit “ I agree Jesus was baptized because it’s a requirement of man.

what you arent able to hear is why all the repentant sinners got baptized

“John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. And there went out unto him all the land of Judæa, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:4-

that’s why it was surprising to John that Jesus got baptized for remission of sin , he had no sin but he did it “ to fulfill all righteousness and show an example to his followers after how we get baptized for remission of sins , receive the Holy Ghost and become children of God and hiers of abrahams promise. Jesus became one of us

“Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭3:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

notice Jesus was baptized and went beneath the water and when he was raised up the spirit came to him ? That’s showing this example

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

There’s always baptism and also receiving the spirit baptism is just what it’s always been it’s practiced in water, the spirit also it comes from heaven to the believer just as it did Jesus.

The same here different order same principles spirit and water

“While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:44-48‬ ‭

They received the spirit first and then Peter commanded baptism in water which we already understand it’s been established ( acts 2:38, mark1:4-5) is for repentance and remission of sins.

why Jesus was baptized in water ? To fulfill all righteousness . True

why sinners who believe the gospel are baptized in water ? Well established and repetitively stated for repentance and remission of sins. If that’s true then this understanding part about baptism and sin being remitted makes sense

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4, 6-7, 11-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this also is saying baptism is about the remission of sin and deeper it’s dominion over us we get baptized into his death because we believe “ Jesus died for my sins and rose from death to life again and lives now and is with me “

He died for my sins , I get baptized into his name because I believe it’s true. It’s deeper and more tangible effects to my indersrsnding then become apparent more so again baptism is about the remission of sins in christs death burial and resurrection

“in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:11-12‬ ‭

to have faith in gods operation we have to acknowledge it at a basic finds metal point when he establishes it for its purpose. Note again this is a deeper view of burial in baptism and remission of sins

“And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

remember Romans saying this ?

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him,”

We are taking his name , his righteous life , his death for sin and his resurrection to eternal life upon ourselves consciously because we believe by faith. It’s a true and important spiritual ordinance with incredible significance to Christians. Further it is the source of the inheritance and making of Gods children of all nations

“For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:26-29‬ ‭

notice how baptism is sown into the fabric of much of Paul’s doctrine ? And is well explained it’s deeper meaning to a believer but if we aren’t willing to say “ yes rbis is what it means pauls revealing it to us our this remission of sins through baptism , and new life and identification in his name. To the believer who gets baptized not for anyone else’s sake but for the conscience of the believer

Receiving the Holy Ghost isn’t the same as baptism for remission of sins that is what we get baptized in water for remission of sins it’s consistent and well established

Did any of those 'sinners' who came to John with repentance receive forgiveness of sin thru water baptism?

DavidTree · May 21, 2022

Pilgrimshope said:

“the LORD confirms your Brother DavidTree by saying "to fulfill all righteousness" -“

yeah like I said you solved the riddle
Of why Jesus without sin got baptized

“But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness.

Then he suffered him. And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭3:14-16‬ ‭

your saying “ Jesus got baptized to fulfill all righteousness because he had no sin to remit “ I agree Jesus was baptized because it’s a requirement of man.

what you arent able to hear is why all the repentant sinners got baptized

“John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. And there went out unto him all the land of Judæa, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:4-

that’s why it was surprising to John that Jesus got baptized for remission of sin , he had no sin but he did it “ to fulfill all righteousness and show an example to his followers after how we get baptized for remission of sins , receive the Holy Ghost and become children of God and hiers of abrahams promise. Jesus became one of us

“Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭3:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

notice Jesus was baptized and went beneath the water and when he was raised up the spirit came to him ? That’s showing this example

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

There’s always baptism and also receiving the spirit baptism is just what it’s always been it’s practiced in water, the spirit also it comes from heaven to the believer just as it did Jesus.

The same here different order same principles spirit and water

“While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:44-48‬ ‭

They received the spirit first and then Peter commanded baptism in water which we already understand it’s been established ( acts 2:38, mark1:4-5) is for repentance and remission of sins.

why Jesus was baptized in water ? To fulfill all righteousness . True

why sinners who believe the gospel are baptized in water ? Well established and repetitively stated for repentance and remission of sins. If that’s true then this understanding part about baptism and sin being remitted makes sense

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4, 6-7, 11-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this also is saying baptism is about the remission of sin and deeper it’s dominion over us we get baptized into his death because we believe “ Jesus died for my sins and rose from death to life again and lives now and is with me “

He died for my sins , I get baptized into his name because I believe it’s true. It’s deeper and more tangible effects to my indersrsnding then become apparent more so again baptism is about the remission of sins in christs death burial and resurrection

“in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:11-12‬ ‭

to have faith in gods operation we have to acknowledge it at a basic finds metal point when he establishes it for its purpose. Note again this is a deeper view of burial in baptism and remission of sins

“And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

remember Romans saying this ?

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him,”

We are taking his name , his righteous life , his death for sin and his resurrection to eternal life upon ourselves consciously because we believe by faith. It’s a true and important spiritual ordinance with incredible significance to Christians. Further it is the source of the inheritance and making of Gods children of all nations

“For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:26-29‬ ‭

notice how baptism is sown into the fabric of much of Paul’s doctrine ? And is well explained it’s deeper meaning to a believer but if we aren’t willing to say “ yes rbis is what it means pauls revealing it to us our this remission of sins through baptism , and new life and identification in his name. To the believer who gets baptized not for anyone else’s sake but for the conscience of the believer

Receiving the Holy Ghost isn’t the same as baptism for remission of sins that is what we get baptized in water for remission of sins it’s consistent and well established

Now listen carefully because we know each other and are both firmly under Grace and have been Placed in Christ by the Father.

You said: "we get baptized in water for remission of sins it’s consistent and well established"

This statement is heretical and is the foundation of the Roman catholic church and all 'works based' religions utilizing water baptism for remission of sin.

You cannot find one scripture that declares water baptism is the means by which the Father has forgiven our sins.

ALL Scripture declares the BLOOD of the Lamb removes and washes away sin = PERIOD.

the LORD said "let it be so for now...............to fuilfill all righteousness"

You have only partially discovered what HE meant by this and why water baptism.

OK - let this be in your heart for Joy and REST as you seek the answers from His Word - PEACE

Runningman · May 21, 2022

DavidTree said:

It would be difficult to make obedience to God a dead, useless, work of the flesh. God after all commanded water baptism and obedience is required. So I would say that baptism is not a work that we do in order to secure something.

Maybe this is so confusing because people think that any sort of work is a dead work? That’s false. Obedience to God, even if it’s just something like water baptism we have to actually get up and do, is required.

DavidTree · May 21, 2022

Runningman said:

It would be difficult to make obedience to God a dead, useless, work of the flesh. God after all commanded water baptism and obedience is required. So I would say that baptism is not a work that we do in order to secure something.

Maybe this is so confusing because people think that any sort of work is a dead work? That’s false. Obedience to God, even if it’s just something like water baptism we have to actually get up and do, is required.

Water baptism is a BEAUTIFUL and righteous act of faith in the Word of God.

FreeGrace2 · May 21, 2022

Pilgrimshope said:

This is what the apostle Paul said about John's baptism in Acts 19:4 -
4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”

The Greek word for "repentance" means "to change the mind". And notice 4b: he told the people to believe in Jesus.

That is HOW people receive remission of sins; to believe in Jesus.

And Luke recorded this in Acts 10:43 - All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

The red words is HOW to receive forgiveness (remission) of sins: believe in Him.

The blue words defines specifically who to believe in: "His name". The word refers to the reputation and person of Jesus.

There is NOTHING about water baptism in this verse.

And John's baptism is not the same as church age baptism.

Runningman · May 21, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

No. You still don’t seem to get it. It’s believing and being water baptized to be placed spiritually into Christ. Your obedience to God is required on this matter. Scripture confirms again and again that believing and being water baptized are required. Even the verses you referenced state that one must believe and be water baptized.

Here’s another one:

Acts 2:41
41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

You seem to want to put the cart in front of the horse. Believing and being water baptized = having your soul added to the spiritual body of Christ. There’s no way around this and it’s required to be resurrected.

FreeGrace2 · May 21, 2022

Runningman said:

Rather, that refers to yourself.

Please quote Eph 1:13 and bold and color the exact words that mean or indicate water baptism.

Then show me the exact words that mean/indicate water baptism in Acts 10:43 and Eph 1:13.

Not even close.

You seem to think I don't believe anyone should be baptized. This verse makes NO mention of what water baptism is for or why it is required. So why did you quote it? It doesn't support anything you've claimed.

You're just trying to connect dots that aren't connected.

You have zero verses that support your opinion.

If you were correct, both Acts 10:43 and Eph 1:13 WOULD include a clear statement about water baptism.

So, get busy and quote both verses and color code the exact words that mean/indicate water baptism.

That's how you would defend and prove your claim.

Runningman · May 22, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

Your argument was already destroyed because your pretense was proven false… again. No need for you to try to prove anything. I recommend you forget almost everything you thought you knew about scripture and starting over. Your foundation is wrecked except for a few trivial points that I agree with you on.

Anyway, as you know, the Bible doesn’t exhaustively say everything in one page, probably because they didn’t know the church would have severe unity problems. Water baptism is a requirement as you’ve been told repeatedly and as scripture says.

At this point it’s between you and God if you tell Him no. I really don’t care what you do at this point nor am I under any obligation to forgive you until you repent.

FreeGrace2 · May 22, 2022

Runningman said:

I have no idea what you are talking about. You haven't shown any "pretense" on my part.

There's always a need to prove a false doctrine is false.

What a joke.

Interesting. On another thread where we strongly agreed with the OP, you were quite friendly and cooperative. But once I disagreed with other views, such as on this thread, you've become very nasty and mean. Sad.

No, it isn't a requirement for salvation. But you are free to believe whatever you want. However, I will continue to believe what Scripture ACTUALLY says and shows.

For example, 1 These 2:13 - 13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe.

Notice Paul's point: "you who believe". If your claim about water baptism was correct, it would have been included as "part of the deal". Yet nowhere does Paul even mention water baptism.

Then notice v.16a - 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved.

Notice again there is NO mention of water baptism in the clear context of being saved. If water baptism was a requirement, Paul would have included it. But, instead, he mentioned "speaking to thye Gentiles so that they may be saved."

It is quite clear that he was referring to believing what they heard and being saved based on that. Nothing about water baptism.

Then, Paul is equally as clear in 1 Cor 15-
1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand.
2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly (POSSESS) to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain (WITHOUT REASON).

Paul is reminding the carnal Corinthians that they received (believed) the gospel that he had preached to them in v.1, and in v.2 tells them plainly that they ARE SAVED if they possess the word preached, meaning they believed the gospel. Again NO MENTION of water baptism in any of this. v.2 ends with a clarification that if they didn't believe the gospel, they have believed "without reason", or believed something other than the gospel.

Then, in v.11, Paul summarizes the first 10 verses:
11 Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

And NO MENTION of water baptism.

So you have NO LEG to stand on with your own "vain" doctrine. iow, your doctrine is "without reason" because it isn't in the Bible.

Salvation is by believing the gospel, which is what is preached and believed. No mention of water baptism.

Actually, all this applies directly to you. You have been given very clear and thorough evidence from the Bible about how to be saved, yet you just continue to reject it, all without any evidence to refute what you've been shown.

The choice is yours alone.

Being born of water and Spirit

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