Belief vs faith

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John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#21
Hebrews 11:1 defines faith: in the KJV it is "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." In what sense has Christ not seen, since He is God and knows the end from the beginning? In what sense does He yet hope?
Christ's faith was shown through His obedience. The substance, the evidence of Christ's faith is complete obedience unto the Father, even unto the death of the cross. He was the spotless Lamb without blemish. That's Christ's faith. How's your faith stack up against His faith?
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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#23
believe versus faith?

(1) Are you asking the difference between the meaning of the English words? Or (2) are you trying to discern the difference in the meaning of the Greek words from which the English words are translated?

Question # 1 can make in interesting discussion but has little value as far as better understanding the Biblical meaning.

Question # 2: The beginning point is realizing the Greek word for "believe" is pisteuo. The Greek word for "faith" is pistis. The same root word is used for both. One is a noun and one is a verb. But realizing the root word is the same negates trying to find huge theological differences between the meanings of "believe" and "faith".
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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#24
Bad Semantic Argument

If you're going to argue semantics, then you pretty much by definition need to do that with care and precision.



The words "faith" and "belief" can BOTH be used in different ways.

We can use definitions of the words which are virtually identical, or we can use definitions of the words which are a bit different. By bouncing back and forth between definitions of very similar words, we can create all kinds of needless confusion.



Root of the Confusion:
The OP wants to show a difference between "belief" and "faith", but the OP does NOT first establish particular definitions for each word!

The OP wants to make a distinction between 2 things without ever explaining precisely WHAT these 2 things are!
There IS NO WAY to find a distinction between 2 things if you don't first define those two things.

The OP gives no precise definition of each word before starting this process.
If we can't give precise definitions of words, we cannot possibly find any precise distinction between them.
If we don't know what they ARE, how can we possibly know if they are DIFFERENT?

(Not to mention the fact that each of these 2 words has different meanings: sometimes in scripture they mean the exact same thing, and sometimes they use slightly differently meanings to show slightly different things.)


This post actually starts off in absurdity.
It can't possibly start in absurdity and somehow end in clarity.



Conclusion:
1. To assume a distinction between 2 words which we have never even been defined... is just absurd.
2. Without first defining the words precisely, you cannot logically know a distinction even if you see it.
3. We have inherent confusion with these 2 particular words, because each word has different definitions, and sometimes they actually do mean the same thing.




Wise observations, nevertheless the discussion will continue . . . :cool:
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#25
What's the difference?
None. One is a verb, the other is a noun.

BELIEVE (Acts 16:31)

Strong's Concordance
pisteuó: to believe, entrust
Original Word: πιστεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pisteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o)
Short Definition: I believe, have faith in
Definition: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.

FAITH (Rom 10:17)

Strong's Concordance
pistis: faith, faithfulness
Original Word: πίστις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: pistis
Phonetic Spelling: (pis'-tis)
Short Definition: faith, belief, trust
Definition: faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.
 
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Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#26
The Greek from which the English is translated is the phrase ‘Pistis Christou’, which is a genitive, and in the context, a subjective genitive, meaning that the faith spoken of is that belonging to the subject, even Jesus Christ. It is His faith which is in view here.

The evidence for the wording being a subjective genitive, referring to faith belonging to, and personal to, Jesus Christ, is backed up by similar grammar used elsewhere in the New Testament. There are many other verses referring to things which are personal to Christ or to God (eg. The ‘hand of God’, the ‘face of Jesus Christ’, etc.) which are worded in identical grammar in the Greek as with ‘Pistis Christou’ (the Greek construction used in Romans 3:22 and Galatians 2:16, meaning “faith of Christ”).
Sadly, your repeated disregard of the Greek underlying other KJV verses makes your use of it here rather disingenuous. You cannot, with integrity, claim it is irrelevant in one case, and critically relevant in another. I will, however, check out what you claim.

Christ's faith was shown through His obedience. The substance, the evidence of Christ's faith is complete obedience unto the Father, even unto the death of the cross. He was the spotless Lamb without blemish. That's Christ's faith. How's your faith stack up against His faith?
Um, relevance? Abraham and many others were praised for their faith. Either you're ignoring most of Hebrews 11, or your argument is without merit... or both.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#27
Galatians 2:16 (KJV) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

To John146: You have claimed that this refers to the faith that Jesus had, rather than the faith that we have in Him. Please justify this distinction from Scripture.

Based on the consistency of translation prior to about 1850 as "faith of" and after, as "faith in", I suggest that they actually mean exactly the same thing, and it is the change in how things are phrased in English that is the root of the difference, rather than a substantive difference in the meaning of the text itself. In other words, where the KJV has "faith of Jesus Christ" it means, literally, "faith in Jesus Christ" (rather than in one's own works or in some other entity). The idea that it means "the faith of Christin God the Father" as opposed to "the faith that humans put in Jesus" is not supported, that I can find.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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#28
Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God. Believing the word of God is knowledge. Faith is understanding of the word of God. You need both to be made wise unto salvation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#29
Over and over man is commanded to believe. I could have listed about 50 more verses.

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Romans 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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#30
The Greek from which the English is translated is the phrase ‘Pistis Christou’, which is a genitive, and in the context, a subjective genitive, meaning that the faith spoken of is that belonging to the subject, even Jesus Christ. It is His faith which is in view here.

The evidence for the wording being a subjective genitive, referring to faith belonging to, and personal to, Jesus Christ, is backed up by similar grammar used elsewhere in the New Testament. There are many other verses referring to things which are personal to Christ or to God (eg. The ‘hand of God’, the ‘face of Jesus Christ’, etc.) which are worded in identical grammar in the Greek as with ‘Pistis Christou’ (the Greek construction used in Romans 3:22 and Galatians 2:16, meaning “faith of Christ”).

From my experience many do not acknowledge that God has faith. Not understanding how faith works they say; God does not need faith he is omnipotent and knows all things. This has nothing to do with God having or possessing faith

like you mentioned the evidence for the wording referring to faith belonging to, and personal to, Jesus Christ, is backed up by similar grammar used elsewhere in the New Testament.

It's not our faith in or towards him that saves us we have no faith to offer before we are saved..in only the imagination of a wicked heart as I who could n know it.

One day out of the blue it can excuse us the next moment it accuses us. God is greater than our heart, a personal judgement hall. It is not only backed up by similar grammar used elsewhere in the New Testament. But by the direct usage of it .

The loving commandment (not a theory of men) verse 1 is not to have the faith of (not in) Christ, the Lord of glory, of denoting ownership glory. The answer is given in verse 7. It blasphemes the holy name by which we are called. To blaspheme is to accredit the work of person to another.


James 2:1 King James Version (KJV)My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.


The conclusion

James 2:7 King James Version (KJV)Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?


Stealing
the work of authorship like plagiarism.

[SUB][/SUB]
 
Sep 3, 2016
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#31
God's redemption plan (Romans 8:2) requires the Believer at salvation and during sanctification, that their Faith is placed and maintained exclusively in Christ (believe who He is - John 1:1, 14, 29) and the Cross, i.e., "The Finished Work at Calvary's Cross," i.e., "The Blood of Jesus" (believe what He accomplished at Calvary Cross. Romans 4:5 - Galatians 2:19-21 NKJV- 1 Corinthians 1:18-25 NKJV - Colossians 2:11-15 NKJV, i.e., etc.).
 
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Dec 9, 2011
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#32
What's the difference?

Over and over the apostle Paul preaches to believe the gospel of Jesus Christ. Those that do are called "believers".

Once a person has believed the gospel of Jesus Christ, they are commanded to live out the faith through obedience of Scripture. The life of obedience will be judged at the JSOC. There will be some believers who suffer loss of rewards for lack of obedience. There will be some believers who receive rewards based on a life of obedience.
IMO,belief Is from the human level dependent on the five senses,see,taste,hear, smell and feel and thats our small faith the size of a mustard seed but super natural faith comes from GOD and can move mountains.
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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#33
What's the difference?

Over and over the apostle Paul preaches to believe the gospel of Jesus Christ. Those that do are called "believers".

Once a person has believed the gospel of Jesus Christ, they are commanded to live out the faith through obedience of Scripture. The life of obedience will be judged at the JSOC. There will be some believers who suffer loss of rewards for lack of obedience. There will be some believers who receive rewards based on a life of obedience.
To believe is a verb, which is and ACTION word, and is always in the present tense or in the now.
To have faith is a noun, which is a person, place, or THING, and it to is in the present tense, as in, having it now.

Mar 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye [have already] receive[d] them, and ye shall have them.

To put it in perspective, when one believes they currently have (the faith of) something, such as salvation, and act on that belief, such as confessing Jesus as their personal lord and savior, because they believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ and His work on the cross, they will be converted and translated, from death to live, from the kingdom of darkness to God's kingdom of light.
 
Dec 9, 2011
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#37
GOD made man and gave us five senses and Everyone knows that there Is a GOD because creation Itself tells us.
I know that faith and believing are the same but I’m trying to give my opinion In saying that they are different as In have the faith of a mustard seed and you can move mountains,meaning I believe and JESUS does the rest.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#38
The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. If you believe in Christ (Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31); have faith in Christ (Acts 26:18; Romans 3:22-28; Ephesians 2:8) then you are not only believing in the historical facts about Christ and the totality of His person, but are trusting in Him as the all sufficient means of your salvation.

The word translated faith is found in the Greek lexicon of the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance and is defined as follows: #4102; pistis; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), *especially reliance upon Christ for salvation*; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

The word translated believe is from the greek word pisteuō which means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ).

The word "believe" can describe mere "mental assent" belief, as in James 2:19, or also include "trust and reliance" in Christ for salvation, as in Acts 16:31. In James 2:19, nobody is questioning the fact that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation.

Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. Saving belief/faith is more than just an "intellectual acknowledgment" to the existence and historical facts about Christ. Saving belief/faith trusts exclusively in Jesus Christ as the all sufficient means of our salvation.
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
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#39
The OP wants to make a distinction between 2 things without ever explaining precisely WHAT these 2 things are!
There IS NO WAY to find a distinction between 2 things if you don't first define those two things.
Faith is the substance of the thing hoped for, the evidence
of the thing not seen.


*********************

Believe is to hope that something is true without any
known substance in support of the thing believed.



What is absurd, if one wants to use that term, is the argument that a person who believes they are saved by their faith haven't actually heard the audible voice of the LORD, so if faith comes by reading the scriptures then why haven't they read that if we haven't heard the actual voice of the LORD, then we are saved by our hope that men have heard, and they will hear the audible voice of the LORD.
 
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Sep 4, 2012
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#40
What is absurd, if one wants to use that term, is the argument that a person who believes they are saved by their faith haven't actually heard the audible voice of the LORD, so if faith comes by reading the scriptures then why haven't they read that if we haven't heard the actual voice of the LORD, then we are saved by our hope that men have heard, and they will hear the audible voice of the LORD.
Why does the voice have to be audible?