Hi Shrume, you said:
Shrume: No, vv8-10 are a list of manifestations. Nine different ways the gift of holy Spirit is "made plain", or "made visible".
Earlier I mentioned the analogy of the Swiss Army knife. Another example might be a light bulb. A light bulb has two manifestations: light and heat. They are not "gifts" that the light bulb gives, they are different ways the light bulb can manifest itself, or "make itself plain".
Wolf: The example is good to understand. But what makes you so shure that with manifestation are not gifts meant?
Gifts are not manifestations.
If I give you a light bulb, that is the gift. I am not giving you heat and light. Heat and light are manifestations of the gift of the light bulb.
we know that 1.Cor. 12, 8 said that " For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another.......
Here is clear saying that this 9 gifts (which you call manifestations) are not given all to every christian, but each gift to different believers. Otherwise Pauls example with the body would not fit.
As I mentioned before, the overall context of 1 Cor 11-14 is meetings of the church (the body of Christ.)
1 Cor 11:17)
(NIV) In the following directives I have no praise for you, for
your meetings do more harm than good.
(ESV) But in the following instructions I do not commend you, because when you come together it is not for the better but for the worse.
Chapters 12-14 have to do primarily with the manifestations of the holy Spirit with regards to the church, in meetings. In meetings, God inspires different people to do different things.
Also, we know that it can't be true that a person gets only one "gift". Paul states explicitly that all Christians are to speak in tongues (1 Cor 14:5). In 1 Cor 14:23 there is an example of everyone in the church speaking in tongues. Also, God wants all Christians to speak in tongues AND to covet to prophesy.
So the understanding of 1 Cor 12:8-10 that a person receives only one "gift" does not hold up.
Shrume:I do not know of any other verse in the Bible that defines or describes any other manifestation besides those listed in 1 Cor 12:8-10. Do you?
Wolf: Romans 12,6-8 this are called: charisma
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; 7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teaches, on teaching; 8 Or he that exhorts, on exhortation: he that gives, let him do it in simplicity; he that rules, with diligence; he that shows mercy, with cheerfulness.
In those verses, Paul is mixing gifts with manifestations. In the body of Christ, everyone has things they are "good at". Some people are exceptionally good at the manifestation of prophesy, others at ministering, others at exhorting people, etc.
Also, there ARE gift ministries in the church:
Eph 4:
8) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and
gave gifts unto men.
11) And
he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
EVERY Christian can operate the manifestation of prophesy, but not every Christian has the gift ministry of a prophet.
Ore would you say there is no spiritual gifts, like in 1.Cor. 12? interesting that Paul is mention prophecie, but not speaking in tongues (as he did not mention in whole Romans)
I don't think that tongues should be discarded simply because Paul does not mention it in Romans.
Shrume: They are not gifts, they are manifestations OF the gift of holy spirit.
And the bible distinctly states that the manifestation of the spirit is given to EVERY man (meaning Christian) (1 Cor 12:7).
Wolf: Either you say they are manifestations of the Spirit ore you say they are manifestations of the gift of the Holy Spirit. I would say both are not the same! can you please clarify what you mean?
They are the same.
Shrume: I mean that every Christian has the gift of holy Spirit, and that every Christian has the ability to manifest that gift in nine different ways. The manifestation of "gifts of healing" is the only manifestation that is called a "gift" because healings are ALWAYS a gift.
Wolf: Where it is said in the bible that every Christian has the ability to manifest the gift of the Holy Spirit in nine different ways?
Sigh... That's what we are talking about, Wolf.
1 Cor 12:
7) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
The nine manifestations are then listed in vv8-10.
That only the manifestation of healing (now you call it gift) is a gift is not logic, either all which are listet are giftore none!
Read the list of manifestations in 1 Cor 12:8-10. ONLY ONE is called a gift, and that is gifts of healing. Tongues is never called a gift, interpretation is never called a gift, word of knowledge and word of wisdom are never called gifts. Only healing is called "gifts of healing", and that is because healing is always a gift.
Shrume: When the apostles spoke in tongues on the day of Pentecost, who did the speaking? The apostles did. When Peter heard Cornelius and his family speaking in tongues in Acts 10, who did the speaking? Cornelius and his family did. When people prophesy, who does the speaking? The prophets do. "The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets" (1 Cor 14:32).
Wolf: right the people spoke, but are you shure that this events in acts 2 and 10 was not only for to show that the Holy spirit now is sent?
Yes. As 1 Cor 14:5 states, every Christian should want to speak in tongues.
Do you think they had a choice to speak ore not?
Absolutely they had a choice. God does not possess people.
From whom they knew that they have had the ability to speak in languages/tongues?
At some point, they were taught by other people.
Shrume:Christians are responsible for the operation of the manifestations of the gift of Holy spirit. Because of the power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in you, you have the ability to speak in tongues whenever you want to. If you don't know you can, you won't.
Wolf: Where you got this theologie from?
The Bible.
This theory you will find only in pentecostal ore charismatic theologie!
Unfortunately that is often the case, and worse, many Pentecostals and charismatic groups apparently have never read 1 Cor 14 because they all speak in tongues at once, nobody is interpreting, etc.
Nowhere in the bible it is said that Christians have the ability to speak in tongues whenever they want?
14) For if
I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15) What is it then?
I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
16) Else when
thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
23) If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
If the church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues at once, who is making them do it? Surely not God, because He does not want them to do so.
27) If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28) But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
Paul is giving instruction on how tongues with interpretation is to be done in the church. If people could not speak in tongues at will, instruction would not be necessary. But again, God does not possess people.
Even in the apostolic time it was not a gift for all, otherwise Paul made a mistake in 1. Cor. 12,30
Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
Again, in meetings, not everyone does everything.
In the consequence then all who are not speaking in tongues are guilty of disobidiance and ignorance to gods word? Where it is written?
If Christians are not speaking in tongues in their private life, I submit that it is primarily due to ignorance and fear. Most Christians simply don't know what it is, or that they can do it. They read the verse that says "I would like all of you to speak in tongues..." but rationalize it away.
Shrume: That being said, several of the manifestations require revelation from God. You can't just demand a miracle to be performed. You can't demand that someone be healed. God has to give you the go-ahead, and then it's up to you to carry it out. An example of that is in Acts 14:
8) And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked:
9) The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed,
10) Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.
Paul "perceiving that he had the faith to be healed" was revelation from God (word of knowledge and word of wisdom, two more of the manifestations).
Wolf: thats a pure assumption, without any scripture proof.
Do you have a better explanation for how Paul perceived that the cripple had the faith to be healed?
