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I agree with both of those posts. They're correct in saying that the sacrificial atonements still pointed to something greater. Yet at the same time, there was atonement given by God at that time.
An no, I'm not living in the shadow of things to come. I live in the reality and fullness of Jesus as my sacrifice, atonement, redeemer and Messiah. And I try to live a life worthy of that calling, not by any strength in me, but by His.
An no, I'm not living in the shadow of things to come. I live in the reality and fullness of Jesus as my sacrifice, atonement, redeemer and Messiah. And I try to live a life worthy of that calling, not by any strength in me, but by His.
If you say yes it simply means that you agree the Law is still in effect. One is still under grace for that is the forgiveness for breaking the Law.
Sure, one of them is true, either we keep the Ten Commandments or we don't. Pretty easy question.
Can we obey them perfectly? No, we all sin, John makes that plain in chapters 1 and 2 of his first epistle. Can we obey them in our heart as Paul says?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Sure can.
Can't you commit to anything? I am committed to obeying God to the best of my ability and then relying on grace when I fall short.
Sure, one of them is true, either we keep the Ten Commandments or we don't. Pretty easy question.
Can we obey them perfectly? No, we all sin, John makes that plain in chapters 1 and 2 of his first epistle. Can we obey them in our heart as Paul says?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Sure can.
Can't you commit to anything? I am committed to obeying God to the best of my ability and then relying on grace when I fall short.
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E
Well let me say, with all do respect, you are wrong.
My focus is always on God and His Kingdom and seeing it built up. The reason why you might think I'm focusing on the Law so much is because were in the middle of a thread about the Law.
When I meet someone who is in need physically, mentally, emotionally, or spiritually (which is pretty much the root of all of those other struggles) I don't focus on their flesh or mine. I want what God wants, and I want to love them how they need to be loved, not necessarily the way I or they think they should be loved. But the fact of the matter is that that love will be demonstrated one way or another, and that is where the Law can come in.
My focus is always on God and His Kingdom and seeing it built up. The reason why you might think I'm focusing on the Law so much is because were in the middle of a thread about the Law.
When I meet someone who is in need physically, mentally, emotionally, or spiritually (which is pretty much the root of all of those other struggles) I don't focus on their flesh or mine. I want what God wants, and I want to love them how they need to be loved, not necessarily the way I or they think they should be loved. But the fact of the matter is that that love will be demonstrated one way or another, and that is where the Law can come in.
You did not need the law to know what to do. You will never convince me of this. Many a people have come to this same exact point in someone life. and did not need the law to know what to do.
So you think you are better prepaired than I am because you know the law? Wow. Now I think I have heard everything.
Even more important than this, You realise there are times the rules and instructions are not adequate, and sometimes you have to work outside the rules to get things done.
If I see a friend who is extremely suicidal. And she has a gun out in the open which I have never seen before. I have a moral obligation.
According to the law. I can not steel the gun, no ands ifs or buts. But according to the law of love, I take the gun out of her grasp, even if it means stealing it. so her life might be saved, and we have a chance to help with her depression.
thats the problem with following the law. There are no moral high and low grounds, it is written in stone, break it (no matter what) and your in sin.
And just in case you try, Jesus never broke the sabbath, He broke the sabbath as written by the jews long after the law given to moses was given, NOT hte law given to moses.
here we can agree.
Where we disagree with, is how we are obedient..and what the power behind out obedience is.
E
No, Because f the law was still in effect. I would be cursed. AND HAVE NO HOPE.
so, Your sinless? Your perfect? If the answer is no. You do not even follow what you claim we should follow. And why would that be?
You just made your own point.
1 You can not follow the law.. So according to the law your judged.
2. Thus your question "must I follow the law" condemns you. For you admit you can not do what you deem we MUST DO.
Commit to anything? I do. Following the spirit. Seeing how I can help someone God brings into my life. Trying my best not to be fleshly, or self seeking.
I can not learn how to do this by the law. But if I do this, I will not break the law. But follow Gods commands by default (that is why the law of love is far greater than the law of moses)
what I do not think is that I will ever be sinless, or at a point I am good enough i can relax and not worry. For if I ever get here, I will be like the lawyers. Thinking i am holy by the law. When I am a wretched man who can not even fathom what it means to be righteous according to the law (all the law. not just the law of moses)
I don't "need" the Law to tell me what to do. I need God to tell me what to do. And He has done that in the Law, amongst other ways.
Apparently you haven't, because I didn't say that. Nor do I believe it.
What law says that? Taking a gun away from someone trying to kill themselves has nothing to do with "stealing".
I don't know what you mean.
You're exactly right. Jesus broke the Sabbath as given by the Jews. He kept the Sabbath as given by God (Himself). I could care less how the Jews kept it. I care how God/Jesus gave it and how Jesus kept it.
The only way I can be obedience is by God's strength. That doesn't mean I can't know what should be done much of the time. (And honestly, sometimes I have no clue. But praise God I have the Holy Spirit.
Apparently you haven't, because I didn't say that. Nor do I believe it.
What law says that? Taking a gun away from someone trying to kill themselves has nothing to do with "stealing".
I don't know what you mean.
You're exactly right. Jesus broke the Sabbath as given by the Jews. He kept the Sabbath as given by God (Himself). I could care less how the Jews kept it. I care how God/Jesus gave it and how Jesus kept it.
The only way I can be obedience is by God's strength. That doesn't mean I can't know what should be done much of the time. (And honestly, sometimes I have no clue. But praise God I have the Holy Spirit.
You deny the power of Christ's sacrifice to justify and reconcile you? The Law overpowers the Lawmaker?
NO, I am not sinless, I strive to be but fall short. Paul said the same thing...
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
To which question he gives the following answer...
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
The CARNAL mind cannot follow the Law...
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Paul said the converted mind could...
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Not by my own strength, no I cannot but...
Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
You deny the power of Christ in you.
If you could commit to anything, you could answer a simple yes or no question.
NO, I am not sinless, I strive to be but fall short. Paul said the same thing...
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
To which question he gives the following answer...
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
The CARNAL mind cannot follow the Law...
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Paul said the converted mind could...
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Not by my own strength, no I cannot but...
Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
You deny the power of Christ in you.
If you could commit to anything, you could answer a simple yes or no question.
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E
No. I do not think your lying, Like I said, I just do not think you know.
I already explained that much earlier.
Paul was the example. As a pharisee, he was like you say we should be, As an apostle. He learned what true love means, Something the law could never teach him, And he admited this quite plainly.
Red has been telling Linda and I
1. We think it is ok to sin
2. We think we do not have to worry about sin
3. We can live any way we want with no consequences
4. We reject Gods word. and do not follow it period.
Non of these are true.
I know you do not think we teach this. Which is why so far you and I seem to have had pleasant conversations
no. I would have to disagree
E
Brother, you knew what to do before the law was even given, it was written into yoru DNA. Sin came in and destroyed that concept. And Christ had to restr it. One of the things he had to do was give us the law to show our need for Christ. Once we came to Christ, Our spirit was revived, and we could again know the true meaning of love.
Well I might have misunderstood you. But it sure would come across this way. Put yourself in my shoes. and all the people who you would say this too. that is exactly the way it would come across (I did this to people for years. and could not find out why they were offended. I had to come out from under the law to finally realize that.
the law says do not steel. it does not give you exceptions to the rule my friend. You either follow the letter of the law. or you do not. We can not be making excuses as to why we broke the letter of the law.
The letter is written in stone. there are no exception to the law It does not give any
At least we agree here
And again we agree 100% here, I feel the same way my brother
Well I might have misunderstood you. But it sure would come across this way. Put yourself in my shoes. and all the people who you would say this too. that is exactly the way it would come across (I did this to people for years. and could not find out why they were offended. I had to come out from under the law to finally realize that.
the law says do not steel. it does not give you exceptions to the rule my friend. You either follow the letter of the law. or you do not. We can not be making excuses as to why we broke the letter of the law.
The letter is written in stone. there are no exception to the law It does not give any
At least we agree here
And again we agree 100% here, I feel the same way my brother
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C
But some do sound like it's the first, isn't it?
The greatest commandment i.e. to love the Lord with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your strength is in the law spoken through Moses cf Deuteronomy 6.
Does it make sense to say that the law of Moses cannot help one keeping His commands when the law of love is in the law of Moses?
[quote="eternally grafefull]1. I agree, all scripture is given.
The law did its job, it led me to Christ.
2. I agree, those who love God keep his commands. They do it by fulfilling the law of love in themelves.
the law of moses can not help you do number 2. All if cna possibly do is give a starting point, but even then, there is so much more better examples. of how to love. [/quote]
The greatest commandment i.e. to love the Lord with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your strength is in the law spoken through Moses cf Deuteronomy 6.
Does it make sense to say that the law of Moses cannot help one keeping His commands when the law of love is in the law of Moses?
[quote="eternally grafefull]1. I agree, all scripture is given.
The law did its job, it led me to Christ.
2. I agree, those who love God keep his commands. They do it by fulfilling the law of love in themelves.
the law of moses can not help you do number 2. All if cna possibly do is give a starting point, but even then, there is so much more better examples. of how to love. [/quote]
E
Now your talking of a different topic. Your talking about grace.
which is it? the law or grace, you can not have it both ways.
then you do not fulfill your own requirement, that we MUST follow the law.
Can;t you see where I am going.. Saying I MUST, is saying I better be perfect.
Saying I should does not require perfection. But requires obedience
yep. So if you told paul he MUST obey the law. He would tell you no. He could not do it if it is required, he is in deep trouble.
as I have been saying all along.
Which law? the ten commands? or the law of love.
I think you people get the law written in stone mixed with the law of love,
A carnal mind is self focused and can not love, so it is unable to fulfill the law of love, thats correct.
How can a converted mind do it?
He follows the law of love, he seeks the things of the spirit. and in doing so, he does not fulfill the lust of the flesh (break the law)
No, I do not deny anything.
You ask me if I MUST obey Gods commands.
You rpoved not even you can do it, so why are you demanding anyone else do it.
I am trying to show you the error of your question, You are demanding someone do what you yourself claim you can not do. DO you not see what a hypocrite that makes you?
and it does not give God and his love a good name when we do things like this. Why do you think I HATE LEGALISM as much as I do! it does not give God a good name.
That is not a simple yes or no question.
But here I will answer now that we have had some discussion.
You asked.
Do I Believe we MUST follow Gods commands.
My answer. No. If I Must, I am doomed, I can not do it. so I could NEVER do what you claim I must do
Do I believe we SHOULD follow Gods commands?
Yes. Doing otherwise not only is harmful to you, and those you love, But the world. and the purpose God has made for me and my life.
But I am sure you will twist this to mean something it is not meant to be.
which is it? the law or grace, you can not have it both ways.
then you do not fulfill your own requirement, that we MUST follow the law.
Can;t you see where I am going.. Saying I MUST, is saying I better be perfect.
Saying I should does not require perfection. But requires obedience
yep. So if you told paul he MUST obey the law. He would tell you no. He could not do it if it is required, he is in deep trouble.
as I have been saying all along.
Which law? the ten commands? or the law of love.
I think you people get the law written in stone mixed with the law of love,
A carnal mind is self focused and can not love, so it is unable to fulfill the law of love, thats correct.
How can a converted mind do it?
He follows the law of love, he seeks the things of the spirit. and in doing so, he does not fulfill the lust of the flesh (break the law)
No, I do not deny anything.
You ask me if I MUST obey Gods commands.
You rpoved not even you can do it, so why are you demanding anyone else do it.
I am trying to show you the error of your question, You are demanding someone do what you yourself claim you can not do. DO you not see what a hypocrite that makes you?
and it does not give God and his love a good name when we do things like this. Why do you think I HATE LEGALISM as much as I do! it does not give God a good name.
That is not a simple yes or no question.
But here I will answer now that we have had some discussion.
You asked.
Do I Believe we MUST follow Gods commands.
My answer. No. If I Must, I am doomed, I can not do it. so I could NEVER do what you claim I must do
Do I believe we SHOULD follow Gods commands?
Yes. Doing otherwise not only is harmful to you, and those you love, But the world. and the purpose God has made for me and my life.
But I am sure you will twist this to mean something it is not meant to be.
E
Again, in my 40 years of walking with god. I have never heard anyone claim the first. I think alot of people hear the first. because they are not listening to what others are saying.
yep. And jesus repeated it. yet he did more than just repeat it. It said if you do this, something else will happen.
There are only two laws of love in the mosaic covenant, the rest are do this, and do not do this. with no explaination of exactly what they mean (say for an example adultry. According to mosaic law. I could lust a woman in my mind, but since I did not have literal sex with her, I did not commit adultry) Jesus had to explain it goes much deeper than that in his teachings.
that is why it is dangerous to just follow the law of moses You could be led to thinking your a moral person (like the pharisees) and be an immoral judgmental person who does not even realise how sinful he is
yep. And jesus repeated it. yet he did more than just repeat it. It said if you do this, something else will happen.
There are only two laws of love in the mosaic covenant, the rest are do this, and do not do this. with no explaination of exactly what they mean (say for an example adultry. According to mosaic law. I could lust a woman in my mind, but since I did not have literal sex with her, I did not commit adultry) Jesus had to explain it goes much deeper than that in his teachings.
that is why it is dangerous to just follow the law of moses You could be led to thinking your a moral person (like the pharisees) and be an immoral judgmental person who does not even realise how sinful he is