Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

[Alter2Ego]

Christ was before His time He lived on earth, Abraham knew Him, He was there at creation as the Gospels tell us. Very soon after creation, men started making up Gods. That was also true after the flood. Muhammad who created the Muslim religion was born in 570. This has nothing to do with the One True God.

ALTER2EGO -to- RED TENT:
I agree with what you stated above (which I bolded). The Bible makes it clear that Jesus Christ was with Almighty God long before his life force was transferred into the womb of the virgin named Mary. He existed long before the first man, Adam, was created. He existed before all of the other angels. The Bible makes it clear that God created all things through the pre-human Jesus.

"for through him [Jesus] God created everything in the heavenly realms and on earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can't see--such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world. Everything was created through him and for him." (Colossians 1:16 -- New Living Translation)


"For by him [Jesus] all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether they are kings, lords, rulers, or powers. All things have been created through him and for him." (Colossians 1:16 -- International Standard Version)


"because by means of him [Jesus] all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him." (Colossians 1:16 -- New World Translation)

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[Alter2Ego]

The Bible does not teach eternal torment and is a false doctrine. The word trinity is not in the Bible but the Bible does teach plurality within God.

ALTER2EGO -to- LAODICEA:
I agree with what you wrote above, which is bolded. There is not one single verse of scripture in God's inspired Word, the Judeo-Christian Bible, that speaks of literal hellfire torment.

The Bible does not teach eternal torment and is a false doctrine. The word trinity is not in the Bible but the Bible does teach plurality within God.

ALTER2EGO -to- LAODICEA:
I disagree. There is no plurality where Almighty God Yahweh/Jehovah/Yehovah/YHWH is concerned. Suppose you explain why you feel the verses in the image above that you posted are speaking about a "plurality within God"? I read all of the verses, and I don't see any hint of a plurality within God in any of them.

 

[Kerykeion]

YHWH

Is the union of Time and Fate/Light and Dark/Sun and Moon/Mother and Father that brings forth the Tree of Life. This should be known by all. It is known even to the blind who can't see.

 

[psychomom]

In other words, God will supposedly punish people forever in fiery flames of hell--despite the fact the crimes the persons committed were only done during the persons' brief human lifespan.

The Bible does not teach this as a punishment for sin. Otherwise, everyone but the Lord Jesus would be there. The reason for being sent there is rejecting the atoning sacrifice of Christ, Who IS God.

grace and peace,
ellie

 

[jimmydiggs]

Alter2Ego, do you believe Jesus has existed eternally, or do you believe he is a created being?

 

[marianna]

The Bible does not teach this as a punishment for sin. Otherwise, everyone but the Lord Jesus would be there. The reason for being sent there is rejecting the atoning sacrifice of Christ, Who IS God.

grace and peace,
ellie

This is a wonderful, wonderful post!
Thank you so very much.

 

[Kerykeion]

He is the Christ by birthright. He allowed himself to be nailed to the Tree with the crown on his head so that man would always remember the Holy Trinity as the pathway to God. He formed the undeniable connection for those who could not or refused to see the way. The sad fact that so many have lost this knowledge even though it is in plain sight should make it clear to you that there was an unholy perversion at work, an unholy pact between two factions of betrayal and deceit. They altered the true word and twisted the minds of the flock. The unholy pact must be broken. The union of the two Trees freed from their bondage will restore the Garden.

 

[Kerykeion]

He was there in the beginning a child of Time and Fate who are all the children of God. He was born as the Christ. He came again when he was needed. And he comes again for us all.

 

[jimmydiggs]

Hell is the punishment for sin.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (ESV)
21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

The reason we don't receive it, is because Jesus paid for us.

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

 

[kenisyes]

ALTER2EGO -to- KENISYES:
You said the lake of fire answers to hell, and then you presented Revelation 20:14-15 as proof of that. I hope you will quote the verses and point out where you got that idea by bolding the words you want to draw to the attention of others.

BTW: Did you realize the book of Revelation is written mostly in figurative speech aka symbolic language?


As I'm sure you know, figurative or symbolic speech has a much deeper meaning than its face value. For instance, the Yield sign that controls automobile traffic is figurative or symbolic speech. When a motorist comes across a dark yellow triangular sign, he or she must realize that its literal meaning is: "Yield to traffic that is already on the road." If a motorist were to take the yellow triangular Yield sign at face value and say to him or herself: "What a cheerful yellow triangle," and then proceed to ignore its deeper meaning while traffic approaches, guess what will happen?

Similarly, the book of Revelation is full of symbolism. Symbols cannot be taken at face value because their meanings are much deeper.

I agree. Revelation is written in symbolic language. But that does not make it false. As I'm sure you know, there are those who argue that all of Jesus' miracles are symbolic. Some say He never even existed, and His very life is symbolic. Have you ever read Appolonius of Tyana (the pagan Messiah who the pagans in Rome say is like Jesus)? Now, there's some symbols! That's why I provided a couple other verses also. I did not provide them all, as I knew others would, and they had. The Revelation Scripture is the clearest, in my opinion. If you do not agree, fine, you have several others.

One can deduce it from the Cor. passage I gave. Since we will all rise, and be changed, those who die in sin need to go someplace. Jesus says several times (I only gave one) that they will be in eternal torment. (Fire is the most common, but the Greek word is just a little different from ours.)

It may be easier to see if I approach the reasonableness from outside Scripture: Many early Greek and Jewish philosophers argued that the very nature of the human spirit would cause it to exist forever in a body. Logically, the body needs somewhere to go. The argument is 1. God is eternal, and He created us to share His love. If we (spirits) die, His love will have no object of the type He longed for enough to create. 2. God created spirits that desire a body, so if the spirit is to live forever, and wants to appreciate God's love forever, it must be fulfilled in its nature, and thus must have a body forever. Now, I agree, that does not prove that those who reject God's love need a body, so point 3: For God to just "erase" those people who die in sin does not seem how He does anything else (we see evil intermixed with good everywhere). The conclusion is God is eternal and loving, so we must have been created to eternally receive God's love, and it is unlike God to erase something. Now that does not prove anything, since it's not Scripture. But it does prove that what Scripture is telling us is not unreasonable.

 

[kenisyes]

As I look through your responses to others, I notice that you believe that this lake of fire or whatever is a place where people are consigned for punishment. Everything I see indicates that it's a place where people have to be put because they have rejected God. God is only being righteous and making sure the rest of us have eternal peace. It's almost as though the sinners make the decision themselves.

 

[Alter2Ego]

Alter2Ego, do you believe Jesus has existed eternally, or do you believe he is a created being?

ALTER2EGO -to- JIMMY DIGGS:
I notice you did not answer the two questions I asked you in my last response at Post 17, on Page 1 of this thread. As I previously told you when you asked me a similar question, what I or anybody else "believes" is not the issue. What God's inspired Word, the Judeo-Christian Bible, says on the matter is what's important.

Since you failed to respond to the two questions I asked you at Post 17 after I went to the trouble of providing you with a detailed response the last time, I will not be answering anymore of your questions. However I will leave with with a third question for you to ponder.

QUESTION #3 to JIMMY DIGGS: Do you accept what the Bible says, or are you more inclined to go with the crowd and believe what everybody else seems to believe?

 

[Alter2Ego]

ALTER2EGO -to- KENISYES:
You said the lake of fire answers to hell, and then you presented Revelation 20:14-15 as proof of that. I hope you will quote the verses and point out where you got that idea by bolding the words you want to draw to the attention of others.

BTW: Did you realize the book of Revelation is written mostly in figurative speech aka symbolic language?


As I'm sure you know, figurative or symbolic speech has a much deeper meaning than its face value. For instance, the Yield sign that controls automobile traffic is figurative or symbolic speech. When a motorist comes across a dark yellow triangular sign, he or she must realize that its literal meaning is: "Yield to traffic that is already on the road." If a motorist were to take the yellow triangular Yield sign at face value and say to him or herself: "What a cheerful yellow triangle," and then proceed to ignore its deeper meaning while traffic approaches, guess what will happen?

Similarly, the book of Revelation is full of symbolism. Symbols cannot be taken at face value because their meanings are much deeper.

I agree. Revelation is written in symbolic language. But that does not make it false. As I'm sure you know, there are those who argue that all of Jesus' miracles are symbolic. Some say He never even existed, and His very life is symbolic. Have you ever read Appolonius of Tyana (the pagan Messiah who the pagans in Rome say is like Jesus)? Now, there's some symbols! That's why I provided a couple other verses also. I did not provide them all, as I knew others would, and they had. The Revelation Scripture is the clearest, in my opinion. If you do not agree, fine, you have several others.

ALTER2EGO -to- KENISYES:
Above is my previous response to you. Please quote me where I said anything about Revelation being false. I said it is written mostly in figurative speech (symbolic language). I further explained that symbolic language goes much deeper than the face value.

None of the Bible is false. The entire Judeo-Christian Bible was written by inspiration of Almighty God YHWH/Yahweh/Jehovah/Yehovah.

"Every scripture is divinely inspired, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for correction, for instruction in righteousness;" (2 Timothy 3:16 -- Darby Bible)


"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;" (2 Timothy 3:16 -- New American Standard Bible)

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[jimmydiggs]

ALTER2EGO -to- JIMMY DIGGS:
What I or anybody else "believes" is hardly the issue; now is it? What God's inspired Word, the Judeo-Christian Bible, says on the matter is what's important. Don't you agree?

Am I not to test what you proclaim to be true, with scripture? Am I not to be as the Bereans, who even tested what Paul said with scripture? So then, should I not do as the Bereans, and start with asking what you believe, and then seek the answer of scripture? Unless, you're asking that I simply take your word for it, which would of course be much like The Roman Catholic church.

The Bible should be the final authority on all matters dealing with religious doctrines. So let's see what the scriptures say. Below is one I am sure you are familiar with. Keep your eyes on the words in bold print within the scriptural quotation.

I'll play your game.

But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

(John 20:31 -- New International Version)

"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. (John 20:31 -- King James Version)


"But these have been written down that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that, because of believing, you may have life by means of his name." (John 20:31 -- New World Translation)


"But these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God: and that believing, you may have life in his name." (John 20:31 -- Douay-Rheims Bible)


"but these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name. (John 20:31 -- World English Bible)



QUESTION #1 to JIMMY DIGGS: According to the five Bibles I quoted from, who is Jesus Christ is?

These five verses speak of the personhood of Jesus, being the Son of God.

QUESTION #2 to

JIMMY DIGGS: Do you accept what God is saying by means of his instruction guide, the Judeo-Christian Bible? Or do you think it's okay to go beyond what is written therein?

Depends on the situation. Obviously scripture doesn't say "thou shalt not drive motor-vehicles" but there are principles in scripture that might lead one to not drive, such as a personal conviction against it. So, Yes to the former, and then "depends" for the latter.

EDIT: I've tried to fix the quotation issue, but I have no clue what is the problem. I keep deleting and adding and it just stays the same.

 

[jimmydiggs]

ALTER2EGO -to- JIMMY DIGGS:
I notice you did not answer the two questions I asked you in my last response at Post 17, on Page 1 of this thread. As I previously told you when you asked me a similar question, what I or anybody else "believes" is not the issue. What God's inspired Word, the Judeo-Christian Bible, says on the matter is what's important.

Since you failed to respond to the two questions I asked you at Post 17 after I went to the trouble of providing you with a detailed response the last time, I will not be answering anymore of your questions. However I will leave with with a third question for you to ponder.

QUESTION #3 to JIMMY DIGGS: Do you accept what the Bible says, or are you more inclined to go with the crowd and believe what everybody else seems to believe?

I answered your first two questions. Now answer my question.

Alter2Ego, do you believe Jesus has existed eternally, or do you believe he is a created being?

I want a discussion, not a monologue.

 

[Alter2Ego]

One can deduce it from the Cor. passage I gave. Since we will all rise, and be changed, those who die in sin need to go someplace. Jesus says several times (I only gave one) that they will be in eternal torment. (Fire is the most common, but the Greek word is just a little different from ours.)

ALTER2EGO -to- KENISYES:
I read the passage at 1 Corinthians 15:22 that you gave in your previous response (at Post 2), and I fail to see any connection with that verse and hellfire torment. Suppose you quote the verse and then point out to the forum how you came to your conclusion by bolding the words within the quotation that from which you got your deduction? Clearly, you are seeing something in that verse that I'm not seeing. So please elaborate on that for me.

 

[Alter2Ego]

One can deduce it from the Cor. passage I gave. Since we will all rise, and be changed, those who die in sin need to go someplace. Since we will all rise, and be changed, those who die in sin need to go someplace. Jesus says several times (I only gave one) that they will be in eternal torment. (Fire is the most common, but the Greek word is just a little different from ours.)

ALTER2EGO -to- KENISYES:
There are no scriptures anywhere in the Bible that speaks of literal fiery torment. You said Jesus spoke several times of eternal torment. Please provide a few examples of this and then explain why you feel he was speaking of literal fiery torment. The key word is "literal." Keep that in mind when you are quoting Jesus Christ.

 

[Alter2Ego]

Alter2Ego, do you believe Jesus has existed eternally, or do you believe he is a created being?

ALTER2EGO -to- JIMMY DIGGS:
Again, this is not about what I or anybody else "believes." One's manner of worship should be based strictly upon what the Creator provides in his inspired Word, the Judeo-Christian Bible. So whenever you ask what I believe, I will always let the Bible answer your questions as this is not about me.


"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:" (Colossians 1:15 -- King James Version)


"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation." (Colossians 1:15 -- New American Standard Bible)




"So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-BEGOTTEN son from a father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth." (John 1:14 -- New World Translation)


"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only BEGOTTEN of the Father,) full of grace and truth." (John 1:14 -- King James Version)






DEFINITION OF "BORN": Born means having been given life.
Born | Easy to understand definition of born by Your Dictionary


DEFINITION OF "BEGOTTEN": Begotten means something created something else or someone fathered a child.
Begotten | Easy to understand definition of begotten by Your Dictionary


DEFINITION OF "ETERNAL": Eternal means not having a beginning or an end.
Eternal | Easy to understand definition of eternal by Your Dictionary




QUESTION #4 to JIMMY DIGGS: According to Colossians 1:15 and John 1:14, did Jesus exist for eternity or was he created?


QUESTION #5 to JIMMY DIGGS: An eternal person cannot die. Didn't Jesus Christ literally die?

 

[Laodicea]

ALTER2EGO -to- LAODICEA:
I agree with what you wrote above, which is bolded. There is not one single verse of scripture in God's inspired Word, the Judeo-Christian Bible, that speaks of literal hellfire torment.




ALTER2EGO -to- LAODICEA:
I disagree. There is no plurality where Almighty God Yahweh/Jehovah/Yehovah/YHWH is concerned. Suppose you explain why you feel the verses in the image above that you posted are speaking about a "plurality within God"? I read all of the verses, and I don't see any hint of a plurality within God in any of them.

[FONT=&quot]Here is what the Bible says about how Jesus became the Son and how He was begotten.


ESV | ‎Heb 5:5 So also Christ did not exalt himself to be made a high priest, but was appointed by him who said to him, “You are my Son, today I have begotten you”; ‎‎6 as he says also in another place, “You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek.”

ESV | ‎Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, ‎10 being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek.

The word prosagoreuo translated as "designated" also means - to give a name or title to—‘to call, to give a name to, to give a title to.’

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Vol. 1: Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: Based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition.) (402). New York: United Bible Societies.

Jesus was begotten & became God Son:
1) By appointment, Heb 5:5
2) By being given that title, Heb 5:10
3) By coming in the flesh, Mt 1:18,20
4) By declaration,Rom 1:3,4. The word horizo which is translated as "declared" in ESV also means - to appoint, to assign someone to a particular function/task/role.

He was "begotten" at the time He received His titles, e.g. when He was appointed priest, as mentioned in Heb 5.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[Shaije]

I tend to take my Biblical, and historical studies very seriously, including understanding the ancient heresies surrounding the early Church, and their influence in the modern day. With that being said, it is generally very easy for me to recognize a Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, Oneness Pentecostal, or Socinian from the crowd with minimal information provided, and for this I give thanks to God.

Putting that aside, the reason that you find no information on this users profile is because she must remain anonymous. The Watchtower does not permit its members to partake in theological discussions online, so the consequences would be severe if they were to ever find out. However, with that said, there's certainly traces of evidence sitting before you of Alter2Ego's affiliation with the Witnesses if you only took the time to look close enough.

Consider the following:

(1) Denial of the Trinity
(2) Denial of everlasting torment, and traces of annihilationism
(3) Borrowed arguments from Watchtower literature, namely, "Should You Believe in the Trinity?"
(4) The word-for-word citation of Psalm 83.18, as it reads in her signature, is nowhere to be found in any English translation other than the New World Translation, a Watchtower publication (see attachments)
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I'm impressed with your post, so i am not trying to throw a wrench in your game here...But, the 1611 King James and the King James Standard Version (pure cambridge) both say Jehovah.