-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
S
Are we in the process of being saved or are we saved?
When we consider that salvation affects the whole person... spirit, soul, and body... we can speak of salvation as past, present, and future.
In our spirit we were saved at the point of conversion. In our soul we are in the process of being saved as we bring our mind, will, and emotion into conformity to the image of Christ (ie, sanctification). Ultimately even our bodies will be saved in the resurrection when what is mortal puts on immortality.
C
Matthew 27:11And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest.
That's what Pilate said, so Jesus said 'that's what you say.' and then 'who told you that?'...Jesus is the King of the universe, king over His enemies, king over Pilate, king over everyone, Pilate did not know truth, therefore he did not speak the truth, so jesus did say to him 'thou sayest that', but Jesus did not call Himself king of the Jews, that is what Pilate said and now that is what you say too.
Matthew 27:37And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
Was Jesus innocent of the charges and accusations?, that is an accusation, and by Pilate it is a dorogatory, an insult, as it is written He was to be insulted so it is with the sign a insult against the Lord, and so you do now insult Him as well.
Both Matthew and Luke gave the lineages of the parents of Jesus so to imply Jesus being an Edomite is false.
John 2:13And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
How can the passover be the Jews' then when it was the Israelites that came out of Egypt?
How can the passover be the Jews' then when it was the Israelites that came out of Egypt?
Do you not understand what you read? what happens in John 2? who does Jesus drive out of the Temple? It was the 'Jews' in control of the Temple, 'money changers', Edomites using the house of God to profit, this was their passover, a Christian easter is different froma pagan easter, but one can supplant the other, one can corrupt the other. Perhaps you should read John 2 again, just read the whole of John again, and consider that the 'Jews' are not Israelites, for that is what the Bible says, Bible calls them by their chaldean name, to distinguish them, when the Bible says, House of Israel or children of Israel or Isaelites, or kingdom of Israel, or referring to the different tribes of Israel then the Bible will be specific, the Bible never says the Jews are Israel, that is impossible, the 'Jews' are from Edom, that they lived in Judea is not indispute, it's just that they are not of the Tribe of Judah, they were once subjects and slaves of Judah but never of that decent.
I understand this is a very difficult subject and complicated, but the Bible is our ultimate authority, and I must stand by it and will do so, I will state what the Bible says, for it is the truth, I will not stand for subtle corruptions and usurpers, or those seeking to use the power of the Word for their own wordly material gain.
Pastor keith....You said God is not the author of confusion but peace.....Which is TRUE,everybody agrees...but then explain why are there so many contradictions in the bible?...reply then i will quote you almost 100 contradictions.
Pastor keith....You said God is not the author of confusion but peace.....Which is TRUE,everybody agrees...but then explain why are there so many contradictions in the bible?...reply then i will quote you almost 100 contradictions.
C
It seems to me that both Jesus and the Holy Spirit would be able to distinguish Edomites from all others.
The NT constantly contrasts the Jews and the Gentiles. It doesn't seem to mention the Edomites.
The NT constantly contrasts the Jews and the Gentiles. It doesn't seem to mention the Edomites.
Gentiles as a word means 'of high noble birth' and 'of a like kind and clan of similar habit', the word in it's proper etymological sense as it is known to scholars and linguists is a word that is translated from the Greek ethnos which translates into Latin Gens from where we get the English Genteel, the 'Gentry' or 'Gentile birth' a Gentile always applies to someone who is well bred and from the same clan or tribe! It has never meant 'non-jew' that really isn't a acceptable word in correct English and it certainly can't act as a definition for ethnos, that is ridiculous, I only know of poor niave modern sources that could state such a thing, it has no scholarly backing whatsoever.
The ultimate Greek Lexicon Liddel & Scott gives this definition; ethnos - "number of people living together, company, body of men, particular tribe, a nation (singular), a people; a caste, a tribe; a guild; a relation."
That is the Greek language meaning, the actual Greek that the New Testament was written in, and it as a word has never meant 'all those who0 are not jewish', that is absurd, we have the definition of the word and we know what it means.
You must understand that you in no way can comment on the Bible if you cannot understand what the words mean that you are reading, you might as well be reading a foreign langauge. Just as 'Jew' has never meant Israelite, Gentile has never meant 'non-jew'.
R
First of all : In the knowledge of God`s truth : It is the anointing of God`s HolySpirit that teaches us.. According to the Scriptures, It is wriitten by Paul to Timothy in Ist Timothy 6,verses 3and 4-" That if anyman teach otherwise, and consent not to the wholesome words,even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ,and to the doctrine which is accoding to godliness;He is proud, knowing nothing, but DOTING ABOUT QUESTIONS AND STRIFES OF WORDS.. Therefore let us be wise, and not speak our personal opinions, even though they may be partially right. We must focus on the full gospel of Chrsit, and what is written as to what we must believe.. As Paul said- I am determined to know Christ, and Him crucified..And what Christ accomplished on that Cross: is what all of mankind needs !!!
M
IMHO, not everyone is capable of understanding King James vernacular, and it isn't just the thees and thous. BUT, every bible I've ever read points to Jesus as the way, the truth, and the life, so if you can understand another version better than KJB and still get the only message that really matters, that Jesus is the Christ and salvation is through Him, fine. If the KJB is too complicated then you're probably not going to do full exegesis on the texts anyway, just what you can understand. So let it be. To whom much is given, much is expected, but if you haven't been given all that much......no disrespect intended to anyone, but it's true
B
That's what Pilate said, so Jesus said 'that's what you say.' and then 'who told you that?'...Jesus is the King of the universe, king over His enemies, king over Pilate, king over everyone, Pilate did not know truth, therefore he did not speak the truth, so jesus did say to him 'thou sayest that', but Jesus did not call Himself king of the Jews, that is what Pilate said and now that is what you say too.
If Pilate asked a question and he did not get an answer but another question, Pilate will not act as if he had his answer. Thou sayest is the same thing as saying, yes.
If you want proof of this, then refer to the earlier chapter.
Matthew 26: 63But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. 64Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. 65Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy. 66What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.
Was Jesus innocent of the charges and accusations?, that is an accusation, and by Pilate it is a dorogatory, an insult, as it is written He was to be insulted so it is with the sign a insult against the Lord, and so you do now insult Him as well.
Here is a reference to Jews being in Edom but has them in more places than Edom.
Jeremiah 40: 11Likewise when all the Jews that were in Moab, and among the Ammonites, and in Edom, and that were in all the countries, heard that the king of Babylon had left a remnant of Judah, and that he had set over them Gedaliah the son of Ahikam the son of Shaphan; 12Even all the Jews returned out of all places whither they were driven, and came to the land of Judah, to Gedaliah, unto Mizpah, and gathered wine and summer fruits very much.
Going back to Jesus confirmation that the Jews are the Israelites:
John 4: 21Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Seems to me that Jews came from the derivative of the name of Judah as Israelites was a name derived from Israel. If not, you have to clarify Jesus' answers as well as state the name that the people of Judah were known by to defer from the Israelites.
IMHO, not everyone is capable of understanding King James vernacular, and it isn't just the thees and thous. BUT, every bible I've ever read points to Jesus as the way, the truth, and the life, so if you can understand another version better than KJB and still get the only message that really matters, that Jesus is the Christ and salvation is through Him, fine. If the KJB is too complicated then you're probably not going to do full exegesis on the texts anyway, just what you can understand. So let it be. To whom much is given, much is expected, but if you haven't been given all that much......no disrespect intended to anyone, but it's true
sir please try and read some of the thread aleast before you comment , alot of differences in the KJB and the modern translations has already been discuss, but let me say this briefly, God didn't say if ye lack wisdom change His Word and make it easier but rather He said:
Jas 1:5If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
also the Niv which was made easier, than the KJb checks in on a higher grade reading level then the KJb, the NI has a copywrite which means if you it wasn't made to be easier just made so they could make money off the Word of God
S
The teacher is the one with the responsibility to help the student better comprehend the text. The role of the translator is not to interpret.
The KJV is a wonderful translation and has some very exacting precision. It really is not beyond the average reader. I have found people for whom English is a second language who have not had real trouble with the KJV.
What really amazes me is that it is so often the well educated (formally) who complain the most about having difficulty.
The KJV is a wonderful translation and has some very exacting precision. It really is not beyond the average reader. I have found people for whom English is a second language who have not had real trouble with the KJV.
What really amazes me is that it is so often the well educated (formally) who complain the most about having difficulty.
C
Matthew 27: 11And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest. 12And when he was accused of the chief priests and elders, he answered nothing. 13Then said Pilate unto him, Hearest thou not how many things they witness against thee?
Matthew 27:11 - E.W Bullinger Translation notes; 11. Thou sayest= Thou thyself sayest [it]. A Hebraism .
It means - that is what you say, thou (thyself) sayest, this is what pilate said, not Jesus, Jesus did not say it, no confirmation of the accusation against him, because the accusation is false. this is what the original scripture says and it is correctly translated into English is most Bibles- the KJV correctly translates, Pilate said so, Jesus did not, and that is what needs to be known, exactly what the Bible says, the charge is false, Christ is King of the universe, He is God, Pilate thought he was a jew, and that's what you think as well.
If Pilate asked a question and he did not get an answer but another question, Pilate will not act as if he had his answer. Thou sayest is the same thing as saying, yes.
If you want proof of this, then refer to the earlier chapter.
If you want proof of this, then refer to the earlier chapter.
27:13 "Then said Pilate unto Him (see capital H, that means God, the word does not say Pilate said then unto the king of the jews) Heartest Thou not how many things they witness against Thee?" See they witness 'against' Him, Jesus is not in aggreence.
But Pilate says "What shall I do with Jesus Which is called Christ?" (Pilate had no conformation that Jesus was king of the jews, so he says Jesus Which is called Christ? Pilate still not sure Who is Jesus but refrains again from calling Him king of the jews, and instead calls Him Christ, remember what happened to Pilate after, he was confused to the end who was Jesus and he did wonder wether he had made a mistake handing Him over to the Jews.
Further "For he(Pilate) knew that for envy they (Jews) had delivered Him.
22- Pilate said unto them, "What shall I do then with Jesus Which is called Christ?" Again Pilate repeats himself calling Jesus the Christ and not king of the jews, because now he knows it is 'envy' that they seek his death, and then they said "Let Him be crucified!"
Pilate goes on to say "I am innocent of the blood of this just Person, see ye to it."
There is nothing in these verses that says 'Jesus Christ was king of the Jews', nothing, in fact the question posed to Jesus by Pilate was rejected by both Jesus and Pilate as Pilate then does not state that He is king of the Jews but that He is the on eWhich is called Christ?" Pilate was unsure, but judged Him innocent then handed him over to the Jews.
Matthew 26: 63But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. 64Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. 65Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy. 66What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.
Then by that reasoning, Jesus was being insulted for being inquired if He was the Son of God. I'd say not.
Then by that reasoning, Jesus was being insulted for being inquired if He was the Son of God. I'd say not.
Here is a reference to Jews being in Edom but has them in more places than Edom.
Jeremiah 40: 11Likewise when all the Jews that were in Moab, and among the Ammonites, and in Edom, and that were in all the countries, heard that the king of Babylon had left a remnant of Judah, and that he had set over them Gedaliah the son of Ahikam the son of Shaphan; 12Even all the Jews returned out of all places whither they were driven, and came to the land of Judah, to Gedaliah, unto Mizpah, and gathered wine and summer fruits very much.
Jeremiah 40: 11Likewise when all the Jews that were in Moab, and among the Ammonites, and in Edom, and that were in all the countries, heard that the king of Babylon had left a remnant of Judah, and that he had set over them Gedaliah the son of Ahikam the son of Shaphan; 12Even all the Jews returned out of all places whither they were driven, and came to the land of Judah, to Gedaliah, unto Mizpah, and gathered wine and summer fruits very much.
"Even all the Jews returned out of the places whither they had been driven, and came to the land of Judah (They were not in Judah they had been driven out) to Gedaliah (appointed govenor by Babylon to serve the Chaldeans) unto Mispah and gathered wine and summer fruits very much"
Going back to Jesus confirmation that the Jews are the Israelites:
John 4: 21Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
John 4: 21Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
The woman mistakes Christ, she is a Samaritan, now many Samaritans were true Israelites, this is proven. This woman thought because Christ was known as a preacher and a religious teacher, the woman thought that He was a 'Jew' from Jerusalem, now I have said that the Edomite Jews controlled the religious heirachy and the Temple, they were the pharisees and saducees and they did not worship the true religion they were apostate, this woman unknowing that she was talking to God Himself assumed that He must be one of these 'Jews'. And she says to Christ 20:"Our father worshipped in this mountain; and ye say (thinking Him to be a 'Jew') that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship(now that is what the Jews said, but Christ never said that, that was not His teaching, Christ never said you have to go to the Temple to worship God) Jesus said unto her: "Woman, believe Me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what (You do not know what you are worshiping here in Samaria): we know what we worship (in Jerusalem): for salvation is of the Jews."
And that is exactly what they were teaching in Jerusalem and that is exactly what you are teaching now and much of christianity is like that today 'salvation is of the Jews', Jesus Christ could not have said it better, that is what they teach in their Temple, in their Synagogue, in their Seminary in their modern church, and so the people outside know not what they worship because the people inside think they know what they worship, as they say 'salvation is of the Jews'! Salvation is NOT of the jews, salvation is through Christ and Christ alone!
23: "But the hour cometh, and NOW is when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: For the FATHER SEEKETH SUCH TO WORSHIP HIM."
25:"The woman saith unto Him, "I know that Messiah cometh, Which is called Christ, when He is come He will tell us all things."
26: "Jesus saith unto her, "I that speak unto thee am He."
And here we see the power of the word, salvation for the Samaritan came not from the Jews as she had be told, for she knew not, she could not go to Jerusalem, she was not allowed, but God, the Father came to her, it is amazing, the Father Himself did seekest her to worship Him and she did, and she believed and was saved, as were many Samaritans, for Jesus came to them, God found them for their hearts were true, as it is said "you did not choose Me, but it was I that chose you." ...'salvation is of the jews', that's what you say, but that's what the pharisees say, and I know there are many Roman Catholics they preach something similar. That is Phariseeism, and I don't believe in that I like the Samaritan woman, believe in Christ and that He can teach us all things.
B
Now read it with the Holy Spirit, anyone one can read the Bible can you read it guided by the Spirit, for when you do, the words come alive and they reveal, revealation is via the word, I know what that verse means, but do you? You take from that verse 4 words and you state 'salvation is of the jews', well it is not, salvation if from Christ, only God is savior, so read the verse again, read all what Christ is saying...
If that is so, how many resources did you look to before pushing this belief?
Matthew 27:11 - E.W Bullinger Translation notes; 11. Thou sayest= Thou thyself sayest [it]. A Hebraism .
It means - that is what you say, thou (thyself) sayest, this is what pilate said, not Jesus, Jesus did not say it, no confirmation of the accusation against him, because the accusation is false. this is what the original scripture says and it is correctly translated into English is most Bibles- the KJV correctly translates, Pilate said so, Jesus did not, and that is what needs to be known, exactly what the Bible says, the charge is false, Christ is King of the universe, He is God, Pilate thought he was a jew, and that's what you think as well.
It means - that is what you say, thou (thyself) sayest, this is what pilate said, not Jesus, Jesus did not say it, no confirmation of the accusation against him, because the accusation is false. this is what the original scripture says and it is correctly translated into English is most Bibles- the KJV correctly translates, Pilate said so, Jesus did not, and that is what needs to be known, exactly what the Bible says, the charge is false, Christ is King of the universe, He is God, Pilate thought he was a jew, and that's what you think as well.
I just wondered if you had considered the foundational route of this belief you are sharing.
"Thou sayest" in spite of E.W. Bullinger, still reads as a confirmation. Would not Pilate inquire further then by saying, "What are thou then? Art thou the King of the Israelites?" No one bothered to ask that question, not even once.
Let us look at Jesus' ministry.
Matthew 10: 5These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
2 Thessalonains 2: 21Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon. 22And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. 23But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. 24But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. 26But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. 27And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. 28Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
So why did He even speak to the Jews if they were not of the House of Israel?
John 3: 1There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
A ruler of the Israelites or a ruler of the Jews? Why would Jesus bother talking to him if He was not of the lost sheep of Israel? Especially at night when He had more cause to not invite him in so as to be keeping with His ministry to the lost sheep of Israel.
John 3:2The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. 3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
Seems to me that Nichodemus should be knowing more than he would be as a Jew in the way you are saying as apart from Israel.
If Israelites were of Isreal, the what were the people of Judah called?
How come we see only references to Jews in the Four Gospel of the people surrounding Jesus, but no reference to the Israelites of whom were the core target for His ministry in the first place?
The inescapable conclusion is that the Jews were of Judah and of the House of Israel.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.