Bible Vs Scientism

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tourist

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Now we're getting nearer to clearer! Yes, I accept on faith that the Bible is the truth.
On that we agree. The problem lies in the interpretation of scripture and discernment. I agree with you also that God created the heavens and the earth in 6 literal 24-hour days and rested on the 7th. Let's move forward from there.
 
Jul 9, 2022
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I am not asking for photos.
Gotta say, the NASA "globe" images changing the size of the continents every year, is kinda squirrely. Shouldn't these people be able to size continents properly, if they're supposedly highly trained scientists giving factual information about our planet?
 

tourist

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Gotta say, the NASA "globe" images changing the size of the continents every year, is kinda squirrely. Shouldn't these people be able to size continents properly, if they're supposedly highly trained scientists giving factual information about our planet?
The thing is there are now many space agencies besides NASA. It could also be that the further you are away the greater distortion of the continents. Or maybe it's the other way around. While they may be highly trained scientist they are apparently poorly trained photographers.
 
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The thing is there are now many space agencies besides NASA. It could also be that the further you are away the greater distortion of the continents. Or maybe it's the other way around. While they may be highly trained scientist they are apparently poorly trained photographers.
What are we doing giving them money to put up satellites with cameras if they're that bad at this?
Can't they just put a camera on a rocket and start flying away while looking back? Can't be all that hard, we supposedly just put James Webb out there to do just this. And I hear we have satellites in front and behind us to look at solar flares?
Where is the definitive single satellite image of earth? We've sent at least 5 missions to Mars alone. Has nobody turned around and took parting shots?
 
Jul 16, 2022
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Well said, Rich. Allow me to make a couple of clarifications...

1. Wolves today still have the genetic info to make every single kind of canine in the world. From wolf to poodle, for example, requires a LOSS of genetic info. You can still breed a poodle from a wolf over time, but you can never breed a wolf from a poodle, because a lot of the genetic info has been bred out. We cannot breed more genetic info back into the offspring of the poodle. And the LOSS of genetic info is by no means "evolution" in Darwin's sense of "common descent evolution".

You are correct that God created "kinds", and that over time, much genetic info has been lost or intentionally bred out, creating a bunch of "sub-kinds".

2. You mentioned "man, and the original progenitors". What do you mean by "the original progenitors".

3. You are correct that science aligns with God's written word. And what you state as, "science as we know it is corrupt" is what I call Scientism. Science is just the empirical data. The corruption isn't in that data itself, but in the biased interpretations of that data by flawed men - most of whom abhor the idea of a creator. The blind-faith belief in those INTERPRETATIONS is the religion called Scientism.

Anyway, thanks for the comment. 👍🙂🙏

You asked///
2. You mentioned "man, and the original progenitors". What do you mean by "the original progenitors".

I meant the origonal creature (canine) from which our present day wolves, dogs, coyotes, etc cane. Same for the first finch that all the different varieties of finch now exists. For instant, Adam was 1 man, and from him came black, brown, whitee, red and so on.
 

MichaelBoll

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I'd be interested in knowing where in the bible it says that the first 5 days were actually a day long? Because the Bible also says a day is like a thousand years...
In the 2 verses that say a day is like a thousand years to God, define the word "day".

As for your question, consider...

1. The very concept and creation of "the day" is from God, who created it solely in relation to the earth.
2. God defined "day" as a single light/dark earth cycle - or the light portion of that cycle.
3. Any time the word "day" is modified with a numerical value (the first day, day seven, forty days, etc) it is always and without exception referring to a literal day.
4. Any time the word "day" is modified with evening and/or morning, it is always and without exception a literal day.
5. While the word "day" is often used idiomatically to refer to an unspecified general period of time, the plural word "days" ("in six days I created...") always and without exception refers to literal days.
6. God clearly and intentionally equated the six days of creation with the six days the Israelites were to work before taking a day of rest (you work for six and rest on the seventh BECAUSE I worked for six and rested on the seventh).
7. There is ZERO logical or scriptural reason to understand the six days of creation as anything other than literal days - nor even an inkling of scriptural evidence that anyone in the Bible every considered them as anything other than literal days. For example, "He made them male and female from the beginning of creation" - as opposed to "4.4 billion years after the beginning of creation".

But, can I blow our collective minds for a second?
The Jews don't believe a day starts until Sunset. For the book of Genesis to say "There was evening, and there was morning- the first day" If there is a Morning after an Evening, and this is The First Day, then technically God Created the waters and the Sky on Day 1, and Light on Day 0.
I believe the Hebrew concept of a day going from evening until the following evening is based on that very first day - which began as evening (the darkness which God named "night"), then had a morning (the creation of light), and then ended at evening again - which also began the second day.

So the creation of light (and separation of light from darkness) was the impetus for the first of all subsequent days - and defined a "day" as a period of darkness, followed by a period of lightness, followed by a period of approaching darkness, which begins the next "day".
 

MichaelBoll

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I meant the origonal creature (canine) from which our present day wolves, dogs, coyotes, etc cane. Same for the first finch that all the different varieties of finch now exists. For instant, Adam was 1 man, and from him came black, brown, whitee, red and so on.
Ah... okay. I thought you were saying that there were original humanoid progenitors from whom Adam came. And you are correct, the modern wolf is likely not the original progenitor of the canine sub-kinds as I had suggested in my last post. The wolf is probably itself a sub-kind that is fairly close to the genetic makeup of the original kind God created. 👍
 
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In the 2 verses that say a day is like a thousand years to God, define the word "day".

As for your question, consider...

1. The very concept and creation of "the day" is from God, who created it solely in relation to the earth.
2. God defined "day" as a single light/dark earth cycle - or the light portion of that cycle.
3. Any time the word "day" is modified with a numerical value (the first day, day seven, forty days, etc) it is always and without exception referring to a literal day.
4. Any time the word "day" is modified with evening and/or morning, it is always and without exception a literal day.
5. While the word "day" is often used idiomatically to refer to an unspecified general period of time, the plural word "days" ("in six days I created...") always and without exception refers to literal days.
6. God clearly and intentionally equated the six days of creation with the six days the Israelites were to work before taking a day of rest (you work for six and rest on the seventh BECAUSE I worked for six and rested on the seventh).
7. There is ZERO logical or scriptural reason to understand the six days of creation as anything other than literal days - nor even an inkling of scriptural evidence that anyone in the Bible every considered them as anything other than literal days. For example, "He made them male and female from the beginning of creation" - as opposed to "4.4 billion years after the beginning of creation".


I believe the Hebrew concept of a day going from evening until the following evening is based on that very first day - which began as evening (the darkness which God named "night"), then had a morning (the creation of light), and then ended at evening again - which also began the second day.

So the creation of light (and separation of light from darkness) was the impetus for the first of all subsequent days - and defined a "day" as a period of darkness, followed by a period of lightness, followed by a period of approaching darkness, which begins the next "day".
Would you say that we're misreading the word we translate as "Morning"? Where evening is the day until sunset, "morning" starts at sunset, or maybe after Twighlight?
 

MichaelBoll

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What are we doing giving them money to put up satellites with cameras if they're that bad at this?
Can't they just put a camera on a rocket and start flying away while looking back? Can't be all that hard, we supposedly just put James Webb out there to do just this. And I hear we have satellites in front and behind us to look at solar flares?
Where is the definitive single satellite image of earth? We've sent at least 5 missions to Mars alone. Has nobody turned around and took parting shots?
Brilliant! All it takes is a little bit of thinking logically for ourselves instead of believing every stupid thing we're told on blind faith. Elon allegedly sent a Tesla to Mars - but the cameras only worked for a day or so. WHY? Why on earth would we not still be receiving live images of this journey? Don't they think people would LOVE (and PAY FOR) a subscription to see the car getting farther from the earth and closer to Mars? And why do his rockets have rear-facing cameras that show the ascent from earth... only up to a certain point before they switch to a cartoon illustration of what the rocket is supposedly doing? Why not keep those rear-facing (and the forward-facing ones for that matter) cameras ON and FUNCTIONING all the way to the ISS?

Simple questions, people. And simple logical thinking is all it takes to know that there is indeed a very real REASON why NONE of the thousands of "space missions" do these very easy things.

Who among us can guess what that reason is?
 

MichaelBoll

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Would you say that we're misreading the word we translate as "Morning"? Where evening is the day until sunset, "morning" starts at sunset, or maybe after Twighlight?
I don't think so. Morning and evening are used in scripture as we use them still today. Morning is associated with sunrise, and evening with sunset throughout the Bible.
 

MichaelBoll

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I agree with you also that God created the heavens and the earth in 6 literal 24-hour days and rested on the 7th. Let's move forward from there.
That is indeed a great starting point. Okay, do you also agree that God created the heaven on day 2, the earth on day 3, and the sun, moon and stars on day 4?
 

tourist

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That is indeed a great starting point. Okay, do you also agree that God created the heaven on day 2, the earth on day 3, and the sun, moon and stars on day 4?
Yes, I believe the entire account of creation for each of the days.

The universe is not untold billions of years old. By biblical accounts, which I believe are accurate, the entire universe, including the earth, is roughly 6000 years old. On the 7th day God rested.

Now, in the eyes of the Lord each day is like 1000 years and 1000 years a day. Six days have now passed as the Lord has related how he views time. The earth is now in the 7th day. Some sort of biblical implication for sure in the events to come

God has said that he would shorten the days otherwise no one would survive, due to wars (nuclear), famine, various pestilences, and disease. Time is short.
 

GaryA

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The quotes are to show you that the Hebrew root word raqa refers to hammering something into a solid shape/object. The Hebrew word raqia refers to the solid object that has been hammered into shape. So what we know from the Bible...

1. God created the raqia (solid object) to separate the waters above from the waters below.
2. God named that solid object "heaven".
3. God later placed lights in that solid object, namely, the sun, moon, and stars.
4. Those lights will eventually fall from the solid object to the earth like figs falling from a tree. (Mark 13:25, Rev 6:13)
5. God opened floodgates within this solid object to let the waters above it fall to the earth and flood the earth.
6. This solid object is still supporting the waters above it - even long after the flood. (Psalm 148:4)
7. This solid object is as "strong as a cast metal mirror". (Job 38:17)
8. God made the sun stand still in the sky - not the earth to stop spinning. (Joshua 10:12-13)

There is no "solar system". Nor is the sun the "center" of anything. It is merely one of the many lights God placed in the firmament of heaven, and it runs its daily circuit over the earth, from one end of heaven to the other. (Psalm 19:4-6) The idea of a "solar system", that we've all been indoctrinated into believing since we were children, goes against every one of the Biblical claims above.

The Biblical description of our world and the heliocentric model contradict each other. They can't both be true. So which one is?
How do you fit this verse into your idea of what the 'firmament' is?

Genesis 1:20

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

I suggest:

The word 'firmament' is translated from ('raqiya') means '[an] expanse'.

The root word it comes from ('raqa') means 'to expand' or '[to] spread out'.

It is not simply about "hammering something into shape"; rather, it is about expanding something or causing something to [be] spread out.

This is the real meaning of the word.

The meaning of the word does not come from a sense of "the action on an object"; rather, it comes from a sense of "the action of an object".

Do you see what I am trying to get across?

You have to be careful when determining the meaning of a word in scripture. Often, a word is based on only one aspect of another word. (If the meaning of a word was "an exact copy" of the word it is based on, another word would not be needed - the original word would simply be used.)

The 'hammering' idea is just analogous for the purpose of mental imagery. It does not "transfer over" from the word 'raqa' to the word 'raqiya'. Only the 'expanse' aspect of it does - which is what the word 'raqiya' is based on.

The word 'raqiya' refers to both the dome and the space under it - in the particular sense of it being 'spread out'. (as in Job 37:18)

The dome is a solid structure.

The sun, moon, and stars are under the dome in the expanse that is 'heaven'. (where the birds also fly)

The dome itself is not 'heaven'. However, it does have water above it.

The 'floodgates' definitely have to be part of the dome.

"Food for thought..."
 

GaryA

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I go to flat earth threads to be entertained, when they start getting aggravating, I leave.
If flat earth threads are just 'entertainment' (for you), then why do you [let yourself] get aggravated?

That point has been reached.
Let me suggest what I think will help...

If you are going to take FE seriously any-at-all, you absolutely MUST learn to look at it from a FE POV and not a BE POV.

A lot of things are really not going to make any sense if you look at FE from a BE POV.

Show me some physical evidence as let's end this fruitless discussion.
In other words, flat earth threads are not just 'entertainment' - are they...?

There is a boat-load of physical evidence. But - you CANNOT look at it from a BE POV or it will not make sense!

If you are going to consider anything in the FE world, you MUST learn to consider it from a FE POV.
 

GaryA

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What are we doing giving them money to put up satellites with cameras if they're that bad at this?
Can't they just put a camera on a rocket and start flying away while looking back? Can't be all that hard, we supposedly just put James Webb out there to do just this. And I hear we have satellites in front and behind us to look at solar flares?
Where is the definitive single satellite image of earth? We've sent at least 5 missions to Mars alone. Has nobody turned around and took parting shots?
The extreme lack of what should be "easy proof" of a Ball Earth is a very large clue... ;)
 

MichaelBoll

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Yes, I believe the entire account of creation for each of the days.

The universe is not untold billions of years old. By biblical accounts, which I believe are accurate, the entire universe, including the earth, is roughly 6000 years old. On the 7th day God rested.

Now, in the eyes of the Lord each day is like 1000 years and 1000 years a day. Six days have now passed as the Lord has related how he views time. The earth is now in the 7th day. Some sort of biblical implication for sure in the events to come

God has said that he would shorten the days otherwise no one would survive, due to wars (nuclear), famine, various pestilences, and disease. Time is short.
Good stuff, tourist. 👍 Do you also believe that the word "earth" - all throughout the scriptures - refers ONLY to the dry land part on which we live, and that the sea is always something OTHER THAN "the earth"?
 

MichaelBoll

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How do you fit this verse into your idea of what the 'firmament' is?

Genesis 1:20

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Hi Gary. We need to properly translate that verse...

New King James Version
Then God said, “Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens.”

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
[in the open firmament of heaven] This rendering scarcely reproduces the sense of the Hebrew words, which literally mean “in the face of,” or “over against, the firmament of heaven.” The idea is that winged things are to fly “above” the earth, and “in front of” the vault of heaven... The meaning seems to be that the flight of winged things shall be in mid air, “in front,” as it were, of the solid “firmament of heaven,” which was not remote.

Keil and Delitzsch Biblical Commentary on the Old Testament
"God said: Let the waters swarm with swarms, with living beings, and let birds fly above the earth in the face (the front, i.e., the side turned towards the earth) of the firmament."

And many more. The Bible doesn't say that birds fly IN the firmament, but across the FACE of it.

I suggest:

The word 'firmament' is translated from ('raqiya') means '[an] expanse'.

The root word it comes from ('raqa') means 'to expand' or '[to] spread out'.
Raqa literally refers to stamping one's feet on the ground, and by extension, stamping/beating out metal etc with a tool into a desired shape. Raqia refers to a final shape/object that has been stamped/beaten out. The word does not in any sense refer to a wide open intangible expanse of air or empty space.

The dome is a solid structure.
Correct.

The sun, moon, and stars are under the dome in the expanse that is 'heaven'. (where the birds also fly)
Incorrect. The sun, moon and stars are IN the firmament. (Gen 1:14, 15, 17) Birds fly UNDER, or "across the face of" it. (Gen 1:20)

The dome itself is not 'heaven'.
Incorrect. It is the firmament (the "dome/vault") itself that God named "heaven". (Gen 1:8)

However, it does have water above it.
Correct.

The 'floodgates' definitely have to be part of the dome.
They are. And since the dome IS heaven, they are rightfully called "the floodgates of heaven".

Thanks for your comments, Gary. I look forward to more discussion. 🙏
 

Dino246

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Jun 30, 2015
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Now we're getting nearer to clearer! Yes, I accept on faith that the Bible is the truth. For example, I cannot PROVE that the God of Abraham created heaven and earth, or created Adam from dust and Eve from Adam. I believe these things on a rational conclusion that the abundance of observable evidence suggests that we and our world are a creation of someone (Rom 1:20) - and on faith that the someone is the God of the Bible.

Scientism is likewise a faith-based belief that "science" somehow PROVES the Big Bang, a heliocentric solar system within a huge vacuum of space filled with billions of galaxies - which are billions of years old - and that living things can emerge via abiogenesis and then evolve into more and more complex beings by random chance.

So in a nutshell, I believe A on faith because I believe (also on faith) that the Bible is God's inspired written word and is the true authority of what's what.

Members of Scientism believe B on faith, because they believe (also on faith) that the interpretations of scientific data by certain men are the true authority of what's what.

Faith-based Belief A and faith-based Belief B clearly and undeniably contradict each other in many ways. This thread was intended to highlight these many contradictions, and to discuss which Belief (if either) is more likely to be the truth of the matter.
Faith-based belief is inherently flawed. What you have described here is blind faith.

Evidence-based faith is what the Bible promotes. On the basis of what God has done, He calls us to believe what we cannot (yet) see. I believe the Bible is true because of the fulfilled prophecies, not merely "on faith".

Your description of scientism is likewise flawed. Science (real science) is based on evidence and experimentation.; faith has nothing to do with it. Fake science encompasses blind faith... believing things outside of science. You erroneously conflate the two.