Biblical Eternal Security vs 'Calvinistic Eternal Security' -by Gregg Jackson

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Chester

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May 23, 2016
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There are 2 verses that clarify the issue of "continued believe" being necessary for staying saved.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Both verses have the same phrase: "have not believed". Since there is no time frame noted, just as "have not believe in the past ____
years,".

So, the phrase is unlimited in scope. Therefore, the words mean the same as "have NEVER believed".
/QUOTE]

As I said before, if you come with prior doctrine, you can usually find verses that you can make match your doctrinal statement. You do a fine job of it above . . . Note your connecting words . . . Since . . . just as . . . so . . . therefore -- by now you are away from the text and to your doctrine.

That is fine; you are allowed to do that - and most people do that - and I am apt to do the same at times when I am teaching. Nothing wrong with that . . .

But for myself - personally - I make a huge difference between teaching and my personal understanding versus what I declare as Biblical doctrine.

When someone makes a doctrinal statement I expect to find a clear Scripture that states it.

So you now brought up a new topic from what we had before (from your first line that I quoted above): You are seeming to say that it is not necessary to continue to believe in order to stay saved. Do you have any verse that clearly states that?
 
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Problem with your interpretation is that it posits that God saves individuals independent of their obedience. If that's true then there's no need for repentance, obeying the gospel, having faith, no need to study the scriptures, love God, do good for others, or really anything else at all.

Curious. Do you adhere to Calvinism?
Not what I said, and sorry if you understood it the way you did.

Regenerated souls come to faith at regeneration and will follow Christ, abide in Him, be obedient and observe all He commanded, and be convicted to live sinless and/or live sinning less.
 

Chester

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May 23, 2016
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FreeGrace2 said:
Since Paul removed works from salvation, of course salvation is by faith apart from works.

The words " we are His workmanship" refers to what God has done, NOT what we have done or will do. Eph 2:10 says we are His workmanship to DO good works. But the salvation is back in v.8, based on faith apart from anything else.
. . . but Paul did not remove works from salvation: He said we are saved by grace through faith, and not by works. And I have no idea how you get the "on faith apart from anything else" from Eph. 2:8-10? Paul says it is by grace through faith: please do not take grace out of being saved????
 

Chester

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May 23, 2016
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When the Bible speaks of "unbelief" it refers to those who NEVER believed.
(1) First, sorry about the mistake I made on post #181 -- you will have to scroll down to see my response. I think I inadvertently erased a [ mark.

(2) Do you have a Bible verse that clearly says that when the Bible speaks of unbelief it refers to those who NEVER believed?
 

FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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Did Nicodemus have saving faith/belief? No.
Actually, he did. We find the evidence here:

John 19-
38 Later, Joseph of Arimathea asked Pilate for the body of Jesus. Now Joseph was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly because he feared the Jewish leaders. With Pilate’s permission, he came and took the body away.
39 He was accompanied by Nicodemus, the man who earlier had visited Jesus at night. Nicodemus brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about seventy-five pounds.

Jesus told him directly that he must be born again. Regeneration precedes true faith/belief.
Where is the evidence from Scripture that regeneration precedes belief?

Only when regeneration occurs does the Holy Spirit convict
This is opinion, not found in the Bible.

and only the convicted come to saving faith; saving faith is a gift from God and not man's own doing.
Yes, salvation is not man's own doing. But faith is NOT said to be a gift of God. Eph 2:8 doesn't support your claim.

The phrase "it is a gift of God" refers back to "saved" (salvation) rather than "faith". We know this because "it" and "saved" are feminine gender and "faith" is masculine. Genders that are related match in the Greek.

Many say they believe in God, but, at the same time they reject the command of Jesus of the need for their own regeneration.
This is a confused concept. One doesn't "obey the command for their own regeneration". That doesn't even make sense.

Regeneration is what God does for those who believe. And the Bible makes that clear.

Eph 2:5 - made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
The red words at the beginning and end of the verse go together. Some translations have "it is by grace you have been saved" in parentheses. This shows that Paul was clarifying "made us alive", which refers to regeneration. So this verse proves that regeneration go together. iow, you can't have one without the other.

to be regenerated means to be saved, and vice versa.

There is no such thing as a regenerated unbeliever, or a saved unregenerated person. Impossible.

Now, v.8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

The red words at the beginning of v.8 are the exact same words as at the end of v.5.

The blue words show the mechanism by which one is saved AND regenerated, since they go together per v.5.

So, v.5 and v.8 prove that salvation and regeneration are through faith. The faith MUST BE PRESENT before one is saved/regenerated.

God does not gift eternal life to any that are not regenerated
The gift of eternal life is clearly shown to be FOR BELIEVERS, PER John 5:24.

because the unregenerate do not have the gift of true faith.
Again, faith is NEVER described in Scripture as a gift.

The devil believes; he indeed knows the truth.
Very poor analogy. The devil has NEVER believed in Christ for salvation. In fact, there is nothing in Scripture to support any angel trusting in Christ for salvation. Yes, he knows the truth because he was created by God in heaven and Ezek 28:12 says - ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: “ ‘You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

Then, v.15 says - You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you.

This is belief (not faith) from experience. Faith involves trust. Does the devil trust God? No.

According to your argument, the devil can be saved because he believes, but he is condemned.
See above for my correct view. I would never include any angel in man's salvation.

The Bible verses I provided support that true faith/belief is caused by God at regeneration, and that God imparts true faith/belief in those HE wants/wills.
I didn't see any verses that you provided. What post #? Thanks.

John 3:16 says "everyone believing in him" has eternal life.
And John 5:24 says "those who currently believe possess eternal life.
And John 5:24 says "recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

John 3:16 does not say "anyone can believe in him".
Looking through all the English translations, many of them have "whosoever believes". We all can look up the original Greek, but Greek scholars understand the meaning behind the words.

They know that the Greek means whosoever, even though that isn't a Greek word, but an English one.

Do you have any verses that clearly show who can't believe? No, you can't. But there are verses that say "refused to believe".

Acts 14:2 and 19:9. Do you understand what "refused" means? It means a choice was made to NOT do something.

Calvinism seems to have missed that important point.
 

FreeGrace2

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
There are 2 verses that clarify the issue of "continued believe" being necessary for staying saved.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Both verses have the same phrase: "have not believed". Since there is no time frame noted, just as "have not believe in the past ____
years,".

So, the phrase is unlimited in scope. Therefore, the words mean the same as "have NEVER believed".
As I said before, if you come with prior doctrine, you can usually find verses that you can make match your doctrinal statement.
No. I come with Bible doctrine. That is WHY I HAVE verses that match my doctrinal statements. And I provide them.

You do a fine job of it above . . . Note your connecting words . . . Since . . . just as . . . so . . . therefore -- by now you are away from the text and to your doctrine.
Those words are explanation. To help others understand my thinking. If you can unpack my post and show me any error in my explanations, please feel free to proceed.

Just so you know, I don't want to be wrong any more than you do. Let that sink in.

That is fine; you are allowed to do that - and most people do that - and I am apt to do the same at times when I am teaching. Nothing wrong with that . . .
Thanks for your permission.

But for myself - personally - I make a huge difference between teaching and my personal understanding versus what I declare as Biblical doctrine.
What I declare as Biblical doctrine is supported by the verses I provide. Or prove me wrong with exegesis.

When someone makes a doctrinal statement I expect to find a clear Scripture that states it.
That's what I do. Or prove me wrong.

So you now brought up a new topic from what we had before (from your first line that I quoted above): You are seeming to say that it is not necessary to continue to believe in order to stay saved. Do you have any verse that clearly states that?
To begin with, there are NO verses that state your view; that one must continue to believe in order to stay saved.

And there are 2 verses that clearly support my claim.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes (present tense) him who sent me has (present tense) eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

The tense for "believes" and "has" is the present. This proves that the MOMENT one believes they possess (have) eternal life.

Now, hold that thought.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

We know from 5:24 that eternal life is possessed by believers, so Jesus is saying that He is the One who gives eternal life to believers and "they shall never perish" is the result of being given eternal life.

From the MOMENT one believes they possess eternal life (5:24) and Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish (10:28).

Now, refute how I've explained these verses, if I am wrong.
 

FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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. . . but Paul did not remove works from salvation: He said we are saved by grace through faith, and not by works. And I have no idea how you get the "on faith apart from anything else" from Eph. 2:8-10?
I can't imagine why it's not clear to you. It's very clear to me. If works are necessary for salvation, why didn't Paul say that clearly?

Paul says it is by grace through faith: please do not take grace out of being saved????
Of course I haven't. In fact, you just validated my point. The word "grace" means UN-merited favor. Which is UN-earned favor.

Grace means NO works involved.

Thank you.
 

FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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(1) First, sorry about the mistake I made on post #181 -- you will have to scroll down to see my response. I think I inadvertently erased a [ mark.

(2) Do you have a Bible verse that clearly says that when the Bible speaks of unbelief it refers to those who NEVER believed?
First we know from John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 that condemnation is for "those who have not believed". If continued belief were necessary for salvation, the 2 verses should have said "those who don't or no longer believe" or words to that effect. But we find no verse that says anything like that.

Second, when the word "unbelief" is used in conjunction with hell, damnation, etc it cannot refer to the former believer, because of the 2 verses noted.

A former believer HAS believed at one time. And they will not be condemned.

In fact, Jesus noted someone who "believed for a while, but in time of testing/temptation, fell away". Parable of the 4 soils. Luke 8:13

But there was no mention of loss of salvation.

If there was ANYTHING that could threaten salvation, God would be amiss to not make that extremely clear. And there are NO verses that state in plain language that salvation can be lost, for any reason.
 

Chester

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May 23, 2016
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FreeGrace2 said:
There are 2 verses that clarify the issue of "continued believe" being necessary for staying saved.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Both verses have the same phrase: "have not believed". Since there is no time frame noted, just as "have not believe in the past ____
years,".

So, the phrase is unlimited in scope. Therefore, the words mean the same as "have NEVER believed".

No. I come with Bible doctrine. That is WHY I HAVE verses that match my doctrinal statements. And I provide them.


Those words are explanation. To help others understand my thinking. If you can unpack my post and show me any error in my explanations, please feel free to proceed.

Just so you know, I don't want to be wrong any more than you do. Let that sink in.


Thanks for your permission.


What I declare as Biblical doctrine is supported by the verses I provide. Or prove me wrong with exegesis.


That's what I do. Or prove me wrong.


To begin with, there are NO verses that state your view; that one must continue to believe in order to stay saved.

And there are 2 verses that clearly support my claim.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes (present tense) him who sent me has (present tense) eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

The tense for "believes" and "has" is the present. This proves that the MOMENT one believes they possess (have) eternal life.

Now, hold that thought.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

We know from 5:24 that eternal life is possessed by believers, so Jesus is saying that He is the One who gives eternal life to believers and "they shall never perish" is the result of being given eternal life.

From the MOMENT one believes they possess eternal life (5:24) and Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish (10:28).

Now, refute how I've explained these verses, if I am wrong.
No, I am not about to refute your explanation. I have said you are allowed your views. I will just stick to what the verses clearly state. And they do not state your doctrines (my view :eek:). So we have already made our rounds on this and we do not approach it the same way, and I am OK leaving it at that.
 

FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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No, I am not about to refute your explanation.
Are you indicating that my explanation is correct?

I have said you are allowed your views.
Of course everyone is. But I said I don't want to be wrong any more than you do. Would you be comfortable accepting a doctrine that you know is unbiblical, but you just happen to like it? That would be weird.

I will just stick to what the verses clearly state.
What I've done.

And they do not state your doctrines (my view :eek:).
OK. So you disagree with my explanation. Why aren't you willing to refute it with your explanation?

Here's the deal: truth cannot be refuted. Truth refutes ALL lies, untruths, errors.

If you have the truth, you should be able to refute my explanations if I don't have the truth.

And when discussing doctrines, we both have the Bible as our guide. So, can you use the Bible to refute my explanation of the verses I have provided?
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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I can't imagine why it's not clear to you. It's very clear to me. If works are necessary for salvation, why didn't Paul say that clearly?


Of course I haven't. In fact, you just validated my point. The word "grace" means UN-merited favor. Which is UN-earned favor.

Grace means NO works involved.

Thank you.
The word grace means . . . which is . . . (. . . "therefore ) Grace means NO works involved

The verse says we are saved by grace through faith, not of works.
Your doctrine from this verse is Grace means no works involved. That is not what the verse clearly states.

Now if you "hold" that and go to another verse - you could really make things interesting . . . (Again, my view! - you are allowed yours)
 

2ndTimothyGroup

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Feb 20, 2021
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No, I am not about to refute your explanation. I have said you are allowed your views. I will just stick to what the verses clearly state. And they do not state your doctrines (my view :eek:). So we have already made our rounds on this and we do not approach it the same way, and I am OK leaving it at that.
Great job. I love how you're able to walk away . . . providing us all with an example of Holy Maturity.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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So, can you use the Bible to refute my explanation of the verses I have provided?
OK, simple example:

You stated originally (somewhere a ways back) that we are saved by faith alone. (Now if you didn't say that let me know).

I showed from the the Bible that this is not so:
Ephesians 2:8 says we are saved by grace through faith

that is not "by faith alone"
(Further - there is no verse in the Old or New Testament that says we are saved by "faith alone")

but you turned around and used your own explanation to say that "by grace through faith" means "by faith alone'

I have no interest in arguing with your "explanation" - I want the Word of God alone and nothing else for doctrine.

So I showed you from the Bible that we are saved "by grace through faith" and not by "faith alone"
 
Apr 12, 2021
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Actually, he did. We find the evidence here:

John 19-
38 Later, Joseph of Arimathea asked Pilate for the body of Jesus. Now Joseph was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly because he feared the Jewish leaders. With Pilate’s permission, he came and took the body away.
39 He was accompanied by Nicodemus, the man who earlier had visited Jesus at night. Nicodemus brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about seventy-five pounds.


Where is the evidence from Scripture that regeneration precedes belief?


This is opinion, not found in the Bible.


Yes, salvation is not man's own doing. But faith is NOT said to be a gift of God. Eph 2:8 doesn't support your claim.

The phrase "it is a gift of God" refers back to "saved" (salvation) rather than "faith". We know this because "it" and "saved" are feminine gender and "faith" is masculine. Genders that are related match in the Greek.


This is a confused concept. One doesn't "obey the command for their own regeneration". That doesn't even make sense.

Regeneration is what God does for those who believe. And the Bible makes that clear.

Eph 2:5 - made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
The red words at the beginning and end of the verse go together. Some translations have "it is by grace you have been saved" in parentheses. This shows that Paul was clarifying "made us alive", which refers to regeneration. So this verse proves that regeneration go together. iow, you can't have one without the other.

to be regenerated means to be saved, and vice versa.

There is no such thing as a regenerated unbeliever, or a saved unregenerated person. Impossible.

Now, v.8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

The red words at the beginning of v.8 are the exact same words as at the end of v.5.

The blue words show the mechanism by which one is saved AND regenerated, since they go together per v.5.

So, v.5 and v.8 prove that salvation and regeneration are through faith. The faith MUST BE PRESENT before one is saved/regenerated.


The gift of eternal life is clearly shown to be FOR BELIEVERS, PER John 5:24.


Again, faith is NEVER described in Scripture as a gift.


Very poor analogy. The devil has NEVER believed in Christ for salvation. In fact, there is nothing in Scripture to support any angel trusting in Christ for salvation. Yes, he knows the truth because he was created by God in heaven and Ezek 28:12 says - ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: “ ‘You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

Then, v.15 says - You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you.

This is belief (not faith) from experience. Faith involves trust. Does the devil trust God? No.


See above for my correct view. I would never include any angel in man's salvation.


I didn't see any verses that you provided. What post #? Thanks.


And John 5:24 says "those who currently believe possess eternal life.
And John 5:24 says "recipients of eternal life shall never perish.


Looking through all the English translations, many of them have "whosoever believes". We all can look up the original Greek, but Greek scholars understand the meaning behind the words.

They know that the Greek means whosoever, even though that isn't a Greek word, but an English one.

Do you have any verses that clearly show who can't believe? No, you can't. But there are verses that say "refused to believe".

Acts 14:2 and 19:9. Do you understand what "refused" means? It means a choice was made to NOT do something.

Calvinism seems to have missed that important point.
Nicodemus obviously came to saving faith after he was regenerated. I've supported my position with plenty of scripture, which you are free to reject. I'm satisfied with my position. I disagree to disagree with your views. Have a blessed day.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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Great job. I love how you're able to walk away . . . providing us all with an example of Holy Maturity.
LOL! I wish I was that "mature" - I spent more time with two more answers . . .
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
Can you provide any verse that says election is to salvation? No, there aren't any.

Nope. The purpose of this election is clearly stated in the purpose clause of "that we should be". And it's subjunctive mood, meaning it's something believers (us) OUGHT/SHOULD do.
nope, that is what we are, not what we should do


[quote)No again. To be "holy and blameless" speaks of service to the King. In fact, Paul clarified in Eph 5 the issue of being holy and blameless.[/quote]
dude you are no more holy and blameless in your life now by your works than anyone is, as Jesus said, only God is good.

you will be seen as holy and blameless on judgment day ONLY because you were justified,

i love how you claim eternal security. Yet all you speak about is works, and you think people who reject Christ have been saved also.

you need to go back to the beginning my friend
 
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Did Nicodemus have saving faith/belief? No. Jesus told him directly that he must be born again. Regeneration precedes true faith/belief. Only when regeneration occurs does the Holy Spirit convict, and only the convicted come to saving faith; saving faith is a gift from God and not man's own doing.

Many say they believe in God, but, at the same time they reject the command of Jesus of the need for their own regeneration. God does not gift eternal life to any that are not regenerated, because the unregenerate do not have the gift of true faith.

The devil believes; he indeed knows the truth. According to your argument, the devil can be saved because he believes, but he is condemned.

The Bible verses I provided support that true faith/belief is caused by God at regeneration, and that God imparts true faith/belief in those HE wants/wills.

John 3:16 says "everyone believing in him" has eternal life.

John 3:16 does not say "anyone can believe in him".
Regeneration can not come until justification occures my friend

you can not be born again in sin.

john 3: 16 says Jesus died for the whole world. so that anyone who believes in him will not die,
 
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Not what I said, and sorry if you understood it the way you did.

Regenerated souls come to faith at regeneration and will follow Christ, abide in Him, be obedient and observe all He commanded, and be convicted to live sinless and/or live sinning less.
Wrong
souls who repent and in faith recieve the gift are justified, and out of this justification are made alive who were dead,

dead soles are not regenerated in sin
 
Mar 14, 2011
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(1) First, sorry about the mistake I made on post #181 -- you will have to scroll down to see my response. I think I inadvertently erased a [ mark.

(2) Do you have a Bible verse that clearly says that when the Bible speaks of unbelief it refers to those who NEVER believed?
1 John chapter 2. And unbeliever who denies the son was never part of the church,