Biblical Eternal Security vs 'Calvinistic Eternal Security' -by Gregg Jackson

[FreeGrace2]

You have denied God's sovereign will, God's omnipotence, and God's authority to have mercy on whomever HE chooses to have mercy, and to harden whomever HE wants to harden.

Nope. I have rejected the insane idea that God created mankind as mere playthings. Like puppets, whose strings He likes to pull to get them to do what He wants.

God is not a puppet master but a chain breaker and a way maker

Yeah, tell that to those He CHOSE not to believe or have a way. Tell that to those He holds accountable but who have NO CHOICE in what God chooses.

It doesn't matter to me how it was that God forced me out of my pleasure-filled hedonistic living, and I don't care that you say God is a brute because HE "forced" HIS gifts on me. That name-calling of God is on you.

I certainly don't view God as a brute, but I've explained WHY in YOUR theology He IS a brute.

I view God as loving and gracious to everyone. He offers the free gift of salvation to everyone, per Titus 2:11 which refutes the Calvinistic view of election.

For man to simply believe (trust) in what God promises is NO WORK at all. Receiving the free gift is passive.

I am eternally grateful that HE ripped me from the depths of depravity and by the power and force of HIS Holy Spirit filled me with HIS gifts of salvation repentance and faith. Thank you Lord ❤

You'll get your eyes peeled wide open when you enter eternity and realize your theology only paints God as a FORCEFUL BRUTE.

I'm not suggesting that you aren't saved. I AM suggesting that your theology isn't even close to biblical.

Again, mankind is not a plaything with God.

God created mankind for relationship, obviously. And that requires choice.

But you just can't see the truth because you have been filled with Calvinistic ideas, that aren't biblical.

I've repeatedly asked for verses that say what you have been claiming, and you haven't because you can't.

Why doesn't that sink in?

If I couldn't find verses that say what I believe, I'd have a very long talk with myself.

You should do that.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The law commands I be sinless in order to be counted righteous and be justified before God by the law.
If the point of the law is to show me I am not sinless, then isn't the law requiring things of me that I can't provide?
Why is the law full of atoning sacrifices? Isn't it because they are clearly necessary owing to my inability to be sinless?

I asked for the verses so I could see the translation and wording. But you failed to do so. Why is that? What are you hiding?

I explained the purpose of the Law and I gave Scripture that shows the purpose, in Gal 3. Didn't you read any of the verses?

But it seems you aren't actually open to truth. You have your own agenda, and truth won't sink in with that attitude.

Here is your first question:
"If the point of the law is to show me I am not sinless, then isn't the law requiring things of me that I can't provide?"

Of course. To SHOW you that you can't comply. That's what I already explained.

Here is your second question:
"Why is the law full of atoning sacrifices? Isn't it because they are clearly necessary owing to my inability to be sinless?"

The "atoning sacrifices" were only a shadow of what Christ would do. Apparently you are rather unfamiliar with Hebrews 7-10. I recommend that you read those chapters so you can understand the difference between the OT sacrifices and Christ's ONLY sacrifice.

btw, the OT sacrifices aren't necessary any more, since Christ has come and sacrifices Himself once and for all.

It's all in Hebrews.

 

[justpassinthrough]

But it's what The Bible says is true...
Salvation is either a FREE GIFT procured and realized by faith ALONE in Jesus Christ ALONE

I know that this may be a controversial subject.


Could you please share the scripture that says we are saved by “faith alone”?

I have heard people say this, but have never seen a verse that says this.

I ask this because faith alone, all by itself is dead, and can not save.





JPT

 

[JerryInBoston]

Man can choose temporal things, i.e., whether to have eggs or pancakes, where to vacation, with whom to associate, places to frequent for entertainment, etc. However, no one has freedom to choose the spiritual things of God because all people are spiritually dead. When the spiritually dead are regenerated, we are given spiritual soundness and the ability to discern spiritual things, which occurs all when God confers upon us HIS sovereign grace in regeneration and gifts us salvation repentance and faith.

Jeremiah knew the power and FORCE of almighty God:

Lamentations 3:

1Ia am the man who has seen affliction
under the rod of God’s wrath.
2He has driven me away and made me walk in darkness instead of light.
3Indeed, He keeps turning His hand
against me all day long.
4He has worn away my flesh and skin;
He has shattered my bones.
5He has besieged me and surrounded me
with bitterness and hardship.
6He has made me dwell in darkness
like those dead for ages.
7He has walled me in so I cannot escape;
He has weighed me down with chains.
8Even when I cry out and plead for help,
He shuts out my prayer.
9He has barred my ways with cut stones;
He has made my paths crooked.
10He is a bear lying in wait,
a lion hiding in ambush.
11He forced me off my path and tore me to pieces; He left me without help.
12He bent His bow
and set me as the target for His arrow.
13He pierced my kidneys with His arrows.
14I am a laughingstock to all my people;
they mock me in song all day long.
15He has filled me with bitterness;
He has intoxicated me with wormwood.
16He has ground my teeth with gravel
and trampled me in the dust.
17My soul has been deprived of peace;
I have forgotten what prosperity is.
18So I say, “My strength has perished,
along with my hope from the LORD.”
19Remember my affliction and wandering, the wormwood and the gall.
20Surely my soul remembers
and is humbled within me.
21Yet I call this to mind,
and therefore I have hope:
22Because of the loving devotionb of the LORD we are not consumed,
for His mercies never fail.
23They are new every morning;
great is Your faithfulness!
24“The LORD is my portion,” says my soul,
“therefore I will hope in Him.”
25The LORD is good to those who wait for Him, to the soul who seeks Him.
26It is good to wait quietly
for the salvation of the LORD.
27It is good for a man to bear the yoke
while he is still young.
28Let him sit alone in silence,
for God has disciplined him.
29Let him bury his face in the dust—
perhaps there is still hope.
30Let him offer his cheek to the one who would strike him; let him be filled with reproach.
31For the Lord will not cast us off forever.
32Even if He causes grief, He will show compassion according to His abundant loving devotion.
33For He does not willingly afflict or grieve the sons of men.
34To crush underfoot all the prisoners of the land,
35to deny a man justice before the Most High,
36to subvert a man in his lawsuit—
of these the Lord does not approve.
37Who has spoken and it came to pass,
unless the Lord has ordained it?
38Do not both adversity and good
come from the mouth of the Most High?
39Why should any mortal man complain,
in view of his sins?
40Let us examine and test our ways,
and turn back to the LORD.
41Let us lift up our hearts and hands
to God in heaven:
42“We have sinned and rebelled; You have not forgiven.”
43You have covered Yourself in anger and pursued us; You have killed without pity.
44You have covered Yourself with a cloud
that no prayer can pass through.
45You have made us scum and refuse
among the nations.
46All our enemies open their mouths against us.
47Panic and pitfall have come upon us—
devastation and destruction.
48Streams of tears flow from my eyes
over the destruction of the daughter of my people.
49My eyes overflow unceasingly,
without relief,
50until the LORD looks down from heaven and sees.
51My eyes bring grief to my soul
because of all the daughters of my city.
52Without cause my enemies
hunted me like a bird.
53They dropped me alive into a pit
and cast stones upon me.
54The waters flowed over my head,
and I thought I was going to die.
55I called on Your name, O LORD,
out of the depths of the Pit.
56You heard my plea: “Do not ignore my cry for relief.”
57You drew near when I called on You;
You said, “Do not be afraid.”
58You defend my cause, O Lord; You redeem my life.
59You have seen, O LORD, the wrong done to me; vindicate my cause!
60You have seen all their malice,
all their plots against me.
61O LORD, You have heard their insults,
all their plots against me—
62the slander and murmuring of my assailants against me all day long.
63When they sit and when they rise,
see how they mock me in song.
64You will pay them back what they deserve, O LORD, according to the work of their hands.
65Put a veil of anguish over their hearts;
may Your curse be upon them!
66You will pursue them in anger and exterminate them from under Your heavens, O LORD."​

 

[JerryInBoston]

If God CAUSES all things, then man CANNOT be responsible for God's choices. That would be literally insane.

Man can choose temporal things, i.e., whether to have eggs or pancakes, where to vacation, with whom to associate, places to frequent for entertainment, etc. However, no one has freedom to choose the spiritual things of God because all people are spiritually dead. When the spiritually dead are regenerated, we are given spiritual soundness and the ability to discern spiritual things, which occurs all when God confers upon us HIS sovereign grace in regeneration and gifts us salvation repentance and faith.

Jeremiah knew the power and FORCE of almighty God:

Lamentations 3:
1Ia am the man who has seen affliction
under the rod of God’s wrath.
2He has driven me away and made me walk in darkness instead of light.
3Indeed, He keeps turning His hand
against me all day long.
4He has worn away my flesh and skin;
He has shattered my bones.
5He has besieged me and surrounded me
with bitterness and hardship.
6He has made me dwell in darkness
like those dead for ages.
7He has walled me in so I cannot escape;
He has weighed me down with chains.
8Even when I cry out and plead for help,
He shuts out my prayer.
9He has barred my ways with cut stones;
He has made my paths crooked.
10He is a bear lying in wait,
a lion hiding in ambush.
11He forced me off my path and tore me to pieces; He left me without help.
12He bent His bow
and set me as the target for His arrow.
13He pierced my kidneys with His arrows.
14I am a laughingstock to all my people;
they mock me in song all day long.
15He has filled me with bitterness;
He has intoxicated me with wormwood.
16He has ground my teeth with gravel
and trampled me in the dust.
17My soul has been deprived of peace;
I have forgotten what prosperity is.
18So I say, “My strength has perished,
along with my hope from the LORD.”
19Remember my affliction and wandering, the wormwood and the gall.
20Surely my soul remembers
and is humbled within me.
21Yet I call this to mind,
and therefore I have hope:
22Because of the loving devotionb of the LORD we are not consumed,
for His mercies never fail.
23They are new every morning;
great is Your faithfulness!
24“The LORD is my portion,” says my soul,
“therefore I will hope in Him.”
25The LORD is good to those who wait for Him, to the soul who seeks Him.
26It is good to wait quietly
for the salvation of the LORD.
27It is good for a man to bear the yoke
while he is still young.
28Let him sit alone in silence,
for God has disciplined him.
29Let him bury his face in the dust—
perhaps there is still hope.
30Let him offer his cheek to the one who would strike him; let him be filled with reproach.
31For the Lord will not cast us off forever.
32Even if He causes grief, He will show compassion according to His abundant loving devotion.
33For He does not willingly afflict or grieve the sons of men.
34To crush underfoot all the prisoners of the land,
35to deny a man justice before the Most High,
36to subvert a man in his lawsuit—
of these the Lord does not approve.
37Who has spoken and it came to pass,
unless the Lord has ordained it?
38Do not both adversity and good
come from the mouth of the Most High?
39Why should any mortal man complain,
in view of his sins?
40Let us examine and test our ways,
and turn back to the LORD.
41Let us lift up our hearts and hands
to God in heaven:
42“We have sinned and rebelled; You have not forgiven.”
43You have covered Yourself in anger and pursued us; You have killed without pity.
44You have covered Yourself with a cloud
that no prayer can pass through.
45You have made us scum and refuse
among the nations.
46All our enemies open their mouths against us.
47Panic and pitfall have come upon us—
devastation and destruction.
48Streams of tears flow from my eyes
over the destruction of the daughter of my people.
49My eyes overflow unceasingly,
without relief,
50until the LORD looks down from heaven and sees.
51My eyes bring grief to my soul
because of all the daughters of my city.
52Without cause my enemies
hunted me like a bird.
53They dropped me alive into a pit
and cast stones upon me.
54The waters flowed over my head,
and I thought I was going to die.
55I called on Your name, O LORD,
out of the depths of the Pit.
56You heard my plea: “Do not ignore my cry for relief.”
57You drew near when I called on You;
You said, “Do not be afraid.”
58You defend my cause, O Lord; You redeem my life.
59You have seen, O LORD, the wrong done to me; vindicate my cause!
60You have seen all their malice,
all their plots against me.
61O LORD, You have heard their insults,
all their plots against me—
62the slander and murmuring of my assailants against me all day long.
63When they sit and when they rise,
see how they mock me in song.
64You will pay them back what they deserve, O LORD, according to the work of their hands.
65Put a veil of anguish over their hearts;
may Your curse be upon them!
66You will pursue them in anger and exterminate them from under Your heavens, O LORD."

 

[JerryInBoston]

The law commands I be sinless in order to be counted righteous and be justified before God by the law.
If the point of the law is to show me I am not sinless, then isn't the law requiring things of me that I can't provide?
Why is the law full of atoning sacrifices? Isn't it because they are clearly necessary owing to my inability to be sinless?

@FreeGrace2 knows everything, and she's right about all things Biblical. At least that is what she has been telling me. In fact, @FreeGrace2 has a sovereign will that can thwart God's sovereign will to save @FreeGrace2, and anyone else, for that matter.

Sorry. He.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I know that this may be a controversial subject.

Could you please share the scripture that says we are saved by “faith alone”?

I have heard people say this, but have never seen a verse that says this.

It is clearly implied in ALL the verses that say salvation is by faith, and there is nothing else mentioned.

I ask this because faith alone, all by itself is dead, and can not save.

Do you know of any verse that says this? James doesn't say this at all.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Man can choose temporal things, i.e., whether to have eggs or pancakes, where to vacation, with whom to associate, places to frequent for entertainment, etc. However, no one has freedom to choose the spiritual things of God because all people are spiritually dead. When the spiritually dead are regenerated, we are given spiritual soundness and the ability to discern spiritual things, which occurs all when God confers upon us HIS sovereign grace in regeneration and gifts us salvation repentance and faith.

Jeremiah knew the power and FORCE of almighty God:

Lamentations 3:

1Ia am the man who has seen affliction
under the rod of God’s wrath.
2He has driven me away and made me walk in darkness instead of light.
3Indeed, He keeps turning His hand
against me all day long.
4He has worn away my flesh and skin;
He has shattered my bones.
5He has besieged me and surrounded me
with bitterness and hardship.
6He has made me dwell in darkness
like those dead for ages.
7He has walled me in so I cannot escape;
He has weighed me down with chains.
8Even when I cry out and plead for help,
He shuts out my prayer.
9He has barred my ways with cut stones;
He has made my paths crooked.
10He is a bear lying in wait,
a lion hiding in ambush.
11He forced me off my path and tore me to pieces; He left me without help.
12He bent His bow
and set me as the target for His arrow.
13He pierced my kidneys with His arrows.
14I am a laughingstock to all my people;
they mock me in song all day long.
15He has filled me with bitterness;
He has intoxicated me with wormwood.
16He has ground my teeth with gravel
and trampled me in the dust.
17My soul has been deprived of peace;
I have forgotten what prosperity is.
18So I say, “My strength has perished,
along with my hope from the LORD.”
19Remember my affliction and wandering, the wormwood and the gall.
20Surely my soul remembers
and is humbled within me.
21Yet I call this to mind,
and therefore I have hope:
22Because of the loving devotionb of the LORD we are not consumed,
for His mercies never fail.
23They are new every morning;
great is Your faithfulness!
24“The LORD is my portion,” says my soul,
“therefore I will hope in Him.”
25The LORD is good to those who wait for Him, to the soul who seeks Him.
26It is good to wait quietly
for the salvation of the LORD.
27It is good for a man to bear the yoke
while he is still young.
28Let him sit alone in silence,
for God has disciplined him.
29Let him bury his face in the dust—
perhaps there is still hope.
30Let him offer his cheek to the one who would strike him; let him be filled with reproach.
31For the Lord will not cast us off forever.
32Even if He causes grief, He will show compassion according to His abundant loving devotion.
33For He does not willingly afflict or grieve the sons of men.
34To crush underfoot all the prisoners of the land,
35to deny a man justice before the Most High,
36to subvert a man in his lawsuit—
of these the Lord does not approve.
37Who has spoken and it came to pass,
unless the Lord has ordained it?
38Do not both adversity and good
come from the mouth of the Most High?
39Why should any mortal man complain,
in view of his sins?
40Let us examine and test our ways,
and turn back to the LORD.
41Let us lift up our hearts and hands
to God in heaven:
42“We have sinned and rebelled; You have not forgiven.”
43You have covered Yourself in anger and pursued us; You have killed without pity.
44You have covered Yourself with a cloud
that no prayer can pass through.
45You have made us scum and refuse
among the nations.
46All our enemies open their mouths against us.
47Panic and pitfall have come upon us—
devastation and destruction.
48Streams of tears flow from my eyes
over the destruction of the daughter of my people.
49My eyes overflow unceasingly,
without relief,
50until the LORD looks down from heaven and sees.
51My eyes bring grief to my soul
because of all the daughters of my city.
52Without cause my enemies
hunted me like a bird.
53They dropped me alive into a pit
and cast stones upon me.
54The waters flowed over my head,
and I thought I was going to die.
55I called on Your name, O LORD,
out of the depths of the Pit.
56You heard my plea: “Do not ignore my cry for relief.”
57You drew near when I called on You;
You said, “Do not be afraid.”
58You defend my cause, O Lord; You redeem my life.
59You have seen, O LORD, the wrong done to me; vindicate my cause!
60You have seen all their malice,
all their plots against me.
61O LORD, You have heard their insults,
all their plots against me—
62the slander and murmuring of my assailants against me all day long.
63When they sit and when they rise,
see how they mock me in song.
64You will pay them back what they deserve, O LORD, according to the work of their hands.
65Put a veil of anguish over their hearts;
may Your curse be upon them!
66You will pursue them in anger and exterminate them from under Your heavens, O LORD."​

Mankind wasn't created to be God's plaything. What you describe is just that.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Man can choose temporal things, i.e., whether to have eggs or pancakes, where to vacation, with whom to associate, places to frequent for entertainment, etc. However, no one has freedom to choose the spiritual things of God because all people are spiritually dead. When the spiritually dead are regenerated, we are given spiritual soundness and the ability to discern spiritual things, which occurs all when God confers upon us HIS sovereign grace in regeneration and gifts us salvation repentance and faith.

Jeremiah knew the power and FORCE of almighty God:

Lamentations 3:
1Ia am the man who has seen affliction
under the rod of God’s wrath.
2He has driven me away and made me walk in darkness instead of light.
3Indeed, He keeps turning His hand
against me all day long.
4He has worn away my flesh and skin;
He has shattered my bones.
5He has besieged me and surrounded me
with bitterness and hardship.
6He has made me dwell in darkness
like those dead for ages.
7He has walled me in so I cannot escape;
He has weighed me down with chains.
8Even when I cry out and plead for help,
He shuts out my prayer.
9He has barred my ways with cut stones;
He has made my paths crooked.
10He is a bear lying in wait,
a lion hiding in ambush.
11He forced me off my path and tore me to pieces; He left me without help.
12He bent His bow
and set me as the target for His arrow.
13He pierced my kidneys with His arrows.
14I am a laughingstock to all my people;
they mock me in song all day long.
15He has filled me with bitterness;
He has intoxicated me with wormwood.
16He has ground my teeth with gravel
and trampled me in the dust.
17My soul has been deprived of peace;
I have forgotten what prosperity is.
18So I say, “My strength has perished,
along with my hope from the LORD.”
19Remember my affliction and wandering, the wormwood and the gall.
20Surely my soul remembers
and is humbled within me.
21Yet I call this to mind,
and therefore I have hope:
22Because of the loving devotionb of the LORD we are not consumed,
for His mercies never fail.
23They are new every morning;
great is Your faithfulness!
24“The LORD is my portion,” says my soul,
“therefore I will hope in Him.”
25The LORD is good to those who wait for Him, to the soul who seeks Him.
26It is good to wait quietly
for the salvation of the LORD.
27It is good for a man to bear the yoke
while he is still young.
28Let him sit alone in silence,
for God has disciplined him.
29Let him bury his face in the dust—
perhaps there is still hope.
30Let him offer his cheek to the one who would strike him; let him be filled with reproach.
31For the Lord will not cast us off forever.
32Even if He causes grief, He will show compassion according to His abundant loving devotion.
33For He does not willingly afflict or grieve the sons of men.
34To crush underfoot all the prisoners of the land,
35to deny a man justice before the Most High,
36to subvert a man in his lawsuit—
of these the Lord does not approve.
37Who has spoken and it came to pass,
unless the Lord has ordained it?
38Do not both adversity and good
come from the mouth of the Most High?
39Why should any mortal man complain,
in view of his sins?
40Let us examine and test our ways,
and turn back to the LORD.
41Let us lift up our hearts and hands
to God in heaven:
42“We have sinned and rebelled; You have not forgiven.”
43You have covered Yourself in anger and pursued us; You have killed without pity.
44You have covered Yourself with a cloud
that no prayer can pass through.
45You have made us scum and refuse
among the nations.
46All our enemies open their mouths against us.
47Panic and pitfall have come upon us—
devastation and destruction.
48Streams of tears flow from my eyes
over the destruction of the daughter of my people.
49My eyes overflow unceasingly,
without relief,
50until the LORD looks down from heaven and sees.
51My eyes bring grief to my soul
because of all the daughters of my city.
52Without cause my enemies
hunted me like a bird.
53They dropped me alive into a pit
and cast stones upon me.
54The waters flowed over my head,
and I thought I was going to die.
55I called on Your name, O LORD,
out of the depths of the Pit.
56You heard my plea: “Do not ignore my cry for relief.”
57You drew near when I called on You;
You said, “Do not be afraid.”
58You defend my cause, O Lord; You redeem my life.
59You have seen, O LORD, the wrong done to me; vindicate my cause!
60You have seen all their malice,
all their plots against me.
61O LORD, You have heard their insults,
all their plots against me—
62the slander and murmuring of my assailants against me all day long.
63When they sit and when they rise,
see how they mock me in song.
64You will pay them back what they deserve, O LORD, according to the work of their hands.
65Put a veil of anguish over their hearts;
may Your curse be upon them!
66You will pursue them in anger and exterminate them from under Your heavens, O LORD."

God didn't create mankind as a plaything to toy with.

What you describe is just that.

 

[FreeGrace2]

@FreeGrace2 knows everything, and she's right about all things Biblical. At least that is what she has been telling me. In fact, @FreeGrace2 has a sovereign will that can thwart God's sovereign will to save @FreeGrace2, and anyone else, for that matter.

Sorry. He.

This is pathetic beyond belief. Oh, and petty as well.

But again, God did NOT create man to toy with. As your claims indicate.

 

[JerryInBoston]

God didn't create mankind as a plaything to toy with.

You are in denial. Jeremiah the prophet, to whom God spoke and who spoke for God, makes clear that God can do whatever HE wants with us. You are in serious total denial.

Go ahead, READ IT:

Lamentations 3:
1Ia am the man who has seen affliction
under the rod of God’s wrath.

2He has driven me away and made me walk in darkness instead of light.

3Indeed, He keeps turning His hand against me all day long.

4He has worn away my flesh and skin;
He has shattered my bones.

5He has besieged me and surrounded me
with bitterness and hardship.

6He has made me dwell in darkness
like those dead for ages.

7He has walled me in so I cannot escape;
He has weighed me down with chains.

8Even when I cry out and plead for help,
He shuts out my prayer.

9He has barred my ways with cut stones;
He has made my paths crooked.

10He is a bear lying in wait,
a lion hiding in ambush.

11He forced me off my path and tore me to pieces; He left me without help.

12He bent His bow
and set me as the target for His arrow.

13He pierced my kidneys with His arrows.

14I am a laughingstock to all my people;
they mock me in song all day long.

15He has filled me with bitterness;
He has intoxicated me with wormwood.

16He has ground my teeth with gravel
and trampled me in the dust.

17My soul has been deprived of peace;
I have forgotten what prosperity is.

18So I say, “My strength has perished,
along with my hope from the LORD.”

19Remember my affliction and wandering, the wormwood and the gall.

20Surely my soul remembers
and is humbled within me.

21Yet I call this to mind,
and therefore I have hope:

22Because of the loving devotionb of the LORD we are not consumed,
for His mercies never fail.

23They are new every morning;
great is Your faithfulness!

24“The LORD is my portion,” says my soul,
“therefore I will hope in Him.”

25The LORD is good to those who wait for Him, to the soul who seeks Him.

26It is good to wait quietly
for the salvation of the LORD.

27It is good for a man to bear the yoke
while he is still young.

28Let him sit alone in silence,
for God has disciplined him.

29Let him bury his face in the dust—
perhaps there is still hope.

30Let him offer his cheek to the one who would strike him; let him be filled with reproach.

31For the Lord will not cast us off forever.

32Even if He causes grief, He will show compassion according to His abundant loving devotion.

33For He does not willingly afflict or grieve the sons of men.

34To crush underfoot all the prisoners of the land,

35to deny a man justice before the Most High,

36to subvert a man in his lawsuit—
of these the Lord does not approve.

37Who has spoken and it came to pass,
unless the Lord has ordained it?

38Do not both adversity and good
come from the mouth of the Most High?

39Why should any mortal man complain,
in view of his sins?

40Let us examine and test our ways,
and turn back to the LORD.

41Let us lift up our hearts and hands
to God in heaven:

42“We have sinned and rebelled; You have not forgiven.”

43You have covered Yourself in anger and pursued us; You have killed without pity.

44You have covered Yourself with a cloud
that no prayer can pass through.

45You have made us scum and refuse
among the nations.

46All our enemies open their mouths against us.

47Panic and pitfall have come upon us—
devastation and destruction.

48Streams of tears flow from my eyes
over the destruction of the daughter of my people.

49My eyes overflow unceasingly,
without relief,

50until the LORD looks down from heaven and sees.

51My eyes bring grief to my soul
because of all the daughters of my city.

52Without cause my enemies
hunted me like a bird.

53They dropped me alive into a pit
and cast stones upon me.

54The waters flowed over my head,
and I thought I was going to die.

55I called on Your name, O LORD,
out of the depths of the Pit.

56You heard my plea: “Do not ignore my cry for relief.”

57You drew near when I called on You;
You said, “Do not be afraid.”

58You defend my cause, O Lord; You redeem my life.

59You have seen, O LORD, the wrong done to me; vindicate my cause!

60You have seen all their malice,
all their plots against me.

61O LORD, You have heard their insults,
all their plots against me—

62the slander and murmuring of my assailants against me all day long.

63When they sit and when they rise,
see how they mock me in song.

64You will pay them back what they deserve, O LORD, according to the work of their hands.

65Put a veil of anguish over their hearts;
may Your curse be upon them!

66You will pursue them in anger and exterminate them from under Your heavens, O LORD."

 

[JerryInBoston]

This is pathetic beyond belief. Oh, and petty as well.

But again, God did NOT create man to toy with. As your claims indicate.

You are in denial. Thinking you are right in your own mind does not make it so. God can make you do whatever God wants to make you do, and God can gift you whatever God wants you to have, like the gifts of salvation repentance and faith.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
God didn't create mankind as a plaything to toy with.

You are in denial.

Said the denier of truth. Mankind was NOT created to be a plaything for God. But all that you describe is just that. That is what I deny.

Jeremiah the prophet, to whom God spoke and who spoke for God, makes clear that God can do whatever HE wants with us.

If you think this means that mankind is God's plaything, you have a serious discernment problem.

You are in serious total denial.

God did NOT create man to be a toy, a plaything.

None of the verses you copied and pasted supports your "plaything theology". None of it.

 

[JerryInBoston]

FreeGrace2 said:
God didn't create mankind as a plaything to toy with.

Said the denier of truth. Mankind was NOT created to be a plaything for God. But all that you describe is just that. That is what I deny.


If you think this means that mankind is God's plaything, you have a serious discernment problem.


God did NOT create man to be a toy, a plaything.

None of the verses you copied and pasted supports your "plaything theology". None of it.

You said plaything, not me. Stop attributing terms to me that I don't use. When you do that it makes you a liar.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
This is pathetic beyond belief. Oh, and petty as well.

But again, God did NOT create man to toy with. As your claims indicate.

Thinking you are right in your own mind does not make it so.

I wish you could realize how silly this is. You are the one who CANNOT find any Scripture that says what you claim so confidently, and you think that I think I'm right "in my own mind".

You couldn't be more wrong. I know I'm right because there are NO verses that support your plaything theology, plus I've shown you that man has free choice in a number of verses, all of which you have denied.

God can make you do whatever God wants to make you do

What you fail to grasp is that He doesn't. Because He can doesn't mean He does. You are seriously in error.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You said plaything, not me. Stop attributing terms to me that I don't use. When you do that it makes you a liar.

That's right. I did. I am only describing what you theology is. Puppets and robots are playthings to toy with.

That's exactly how you present God, as a puppet master or robot programmer, and you seem even proud to be a toy.

You cannot explain how your theology works since the Bible says man is accountable.

If man is accountable, yet God makes all the choices and FORCES all the actions, man cannot be accountable.

It doesn't take a lot of discernment to understand this. It's quite easy, in fact.

 

[JerryInBoston]

FreeGrace2 said:
This is pathetic beyond belief. Oh, and petty as well.

But again, God did NOT create man to toy with. As your claims indicate.

I wish you could realize how silly this is. You are the one who CANNOT find any Scripture that says what you claim so confidently, and you think that I think I'm right "in my own mind".

You couldn't be more wrong. I know I'm right because there are NO verses that support your plaything theology, plus I've shown you that man has free choice in a number of verses, all of which you have denied.


What you fail to grasp is that He doesn't. Because He can doesn't mean He does. You are seriously in error.

You're the one in error. Scripture I've provided backs up all the claims I've made.

 

[JerryInBoston]

That's right. I did. I am only describing what you theology is. Puppets and robots are playthings to toy with.

That's exactly how you present God, as a puppet master or robot programmer, and you seem even proud to be a toy.

You cannot explain how your theology works since the Bible says man is accountable.

If man is accountable, yet God makes all the choices and FORCES all the actions, man cannot be accountable.

It doesn't take a lot of discernment to understand this. It's quite easy, in fact.

Yet God is not a puppet master or a brute as you suggest. God is so powerful as to overcome your spiritual deadness, override your free will to remain stuck in spiritual deadness, and gift you with salvation repentance and faith by HIS sovereign grace. You should be grateful and stop calling God derogatory names.

 

[posthuman]

I asked for the verses so I could see the translation and wording. But you failed to do so. Why is that?

Because you weren't talking to me.

I only today noticed and began participating in this thread, and haven't even read all of it yet.

I'll get to the rest of your post later when I can use a computer.

 

[fredoheaven]

. . . that BELIEVING YE MIGHT HAVE LIFE through his name. -- John 20:31

. . . he that BELIEVETH NOT the Son SHALL NOT SEE LIFE . . . -- John 3:36

. . . to them which should hereafter BELIEVE on him TO LIFE everlasting. -- 1 Tim. 1:16

. . . For ye are all the CHILDREN of God BY FAITH in Christ Jesus. -- Gal. 3:26

The above-mentioned text demands faith before life. If regeneration means life, therefore, faith/belief precedes regeneration.