Biblical Eternal Security vs 'Calvinistic Eternal Security' -by Gregg Jackson
- Thread starter ChosenbyHim
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Umm, as expected you show no scriptural support,
REPENT . . . and BE CONVERTED, THAT YOUR SINS may be blotted out . . . -- Acts 3:19
. . . through his name whosoever BELIEVETH in him shall receive REMISSION OF SINS. -- Acts 10:43
. . . they should REPENT and TURN TO GOD, and do works meet for repentance. -- Acts 26:20
. . . Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance UNTO LIFE . . . -- Acts 11:18
Repentance is UNTO LIFE and not life unto repentance,
REPENT . . . and BE CONVERTED, THAT YOUR SINS may be blotted out . . . -- Acts 3:19
. . . through his name whosoever BELIEVETH in him shall receive REMISSION OF SINS. -- Acts 10:43
. . . they should REPENT and TURN TO GOD, and do works meet for repentance. -- Acts 26:20
. . . Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance UNTO LIFE . . . -- Acts 11:18
Repentance is UNTO LIFE and not life unto repentance,
No it doesn't follow as you claim. God is more powerful than you understand or credit HIM, for HE imparts regeneration, salvation, repentance, and faith all at once.
Follow this: Jesus said repent and believe and you must be born again. Granted, these were said at different places in scripture, but one only has to realize that when you are born again (regenerated) you have been gifted repentance (changed your mind) and you have been gifted belief (given faith), all at the same time. No one born again says "I'll repent later at some other time", or says "I'll come to faith later or some other time." That is foolishness. Regeneration salvation repentance faith all happens at one time.
Follow this: Jesus said repent and believe and you must be born again. Granted, these were said at different places in scripture, but one only has to realize that when you are born again (regenerated) you have been gifted repentance (changed your mind) and you have been gifted belief (given faith), all at the same time. No one born again says "I'll repent later at some other time", or says "I'll come to faith later or some other time." That is foolishness. Regeneration salvation repentance faith all happens at one time.
then you agree with me, and you don't need me to laboriously search and recite a list of verses, because you are a sufficiently adept student of scripture already.
as wise and knowledgeable as you evidently are, you still didn't quite give an adequate answer here. yet in a way, also, you did. =]
if God expected everyone to obey the law, He would not have given any law concerning atonement for sin.
if God expected everyone to *eventually mature* and become sinless, He would not have given Yom Kippur as an everlasting feast for the atonement of the sin of the nation.
these things point to Christ, who does what we cannot do - fulfill the holiness required by the law.
as you said, the purpose of the law is to demonstrate to Israel their inability to comply with the law. the sabbath, for example, is explicitly said in two witnesses to be given as a sign for Israel, with the express purpose to teach them that it is the LORD that sanctifies them. i.e. not them who sanctify themselves. He proved this to them before the law was ever given, in Exodus 16, with the giving of manna and sabbath, as a test -- a test they failed. and so they were given the law that they were given, with its blessing and its curse.
so you agree -- as you say -- that a law was given which could not be kept: the purpose of God being to demonstrate that righteousness is not by works. here's the scripture you demanded of me: Galatians 2:21. it doesn't matter what version you read it in ((well OK don't read 'the message' or somesuch nonsense as that lol)).
seeing that you are in agreement with me & Jerry that God did indeed give commands that could not be kept, that He indeed purposefully did so in order to teach us our need for His mercy, in order to bring us to Christ, Jerry & i eagerly await your apology and confession that God may indeed command things He knows we cannot attain to; that He does so in order to teach us something, to wit: our need for Him. a need for a sacrifice that doesn't need to keep being repeated yearly ad nauseum. OK well mostly Jerry awaits your apology & confession ((scanning the thread)): you and he have been fussing at each other a long time before your fussing accidentally spilled over onto me.
Christ is the fulfillment of the law. nothing else can be the fulfillment of the law. that's why the law was given, and why it is a schoolmaster leading us to Christ, who is God, who has mercy on whom He will, by grace through faith.
o and btw while i have your attention, what did you think about my first comment in this thread?
if human free-will is sovereign, how do you explain praying for the salvation of others?
or do you not pray that God will save someone who is lost?
and also btw, i'm pretty sure you're arguing against hypercalvinism, not calvinism. it's useful to learn the difference, and you'll have a lot easier time gaining the respect of people when you don't automatically accuse everyone who agrees with reforemed theology of being hypercalvinists.
obviously we have free will. obviously that free will is limited, not absolute. obviously salvation isn't by the desire, will or effort of man, but God who has mercy. if we could save ourselves through sheer determination & willpower, Christ died for nothing.
meanwhile, there are 25 pages of this thread i still haven't read. so i have some catching up to do; i trust you will bear with me.
=]
as wise and knowledgeable as you evidently are, you still didn't quite give an adequate answer here. yet in a way, also, you did. =]
if God expected everyone to obey the law, He would not have given any law concerning atonement for sin.
if God expected everyone to *eventually mature* and become sinless, He would not have given Yom Kippur as an everlasting feast for the atonement of the sin of the nation.
these things point to Christ, who does what we cannot do - fulfill the holiness required by the law.
as you said, the purpose of the law is to demonstrate to Israel their inability to comply with the law. the sabbath, for example, is explicitly said in two witnesses to be given as a sign for Israel, with the express purpose to teach them that it is the LORD that sanctifies them. i.e. not them who sanctify themselves. He proved this to them before the law was ever given, in Exodus 16, with the giving of manna and sabbath, as a test -- a test they failed. and so they were given the law that they were given, with its blessing and its curse.
so you agree -- as you say -- that a law was given which could not be kept: the purpose of God being to demonstrate that righteousness is not by works. here's the scripture you demanded of me: Galatians 2:21. it doesn't matter what version you read it in ((well OK don't read 'the message' or somesuch nonsense as that lol)).
seeing that you are in agreement with me & Jerry that God did indeed give commands that could not be kept, that He indeed purposefully did so in order to teach us our need for His mercy, in order to bring us to Christ, Jerry & i eagerly await your apology and confession that God may indeed command things He knows we cannot attain to; that He does so in order to teach us something, to wit: our need for Him. a need for a sacrifice that doesn't need to keep being repeated yearly ad nauseum. OK well mostly Jerry awaits your apology & confession ((scanning the thread)): you and he have been fussing at each other a long time before your fussing accidentally spilled over onto me.
Christ is the fulfillment of the law. nothing else can be the fulfillment of the law. that's why the law was given, and why it is a schoolmaster leading us to Christ, who is God, who has mercy on whom He will, by grace through faith.
o and btw while i have your attention, what did you think about my first comment in this thread?
if human free-will is sovereign, how do you explain praying for the salvation of others?
or do you not pray that God will save someone who is lost?
and also btw, i'm pretty sure you're arguing against hypercalvinism, not calvinism. it's useful to learn the difference, and you'll have a lot easier time gaining the respect of people when you don't automatically accuse everyone who agrees with reforemed theology of being hypercalvinists.
obviously we have free will. obviously that free will is limited, not absolute. obviously salvation isn't by the desire, will or effort of man, but God who has mercy. if we could save ourselves through sheer determination & willpower, Christ died for nothing.
meanwhile, there are 25 pages of this thread i still haven't read. so i have some catching up to do; i trust you will bear with me.
=]
Not only do you misunderstand Scripture, you really misunderstand my posts.
Of course God is neither a puppet master or brute. But it is YOUR theology that paints Him that way.
No, God is NOT a puppet master, as you are STILL painting Him. Nor a brute, forcing things on totally depraved people who would never want what He forces on them (in your theology).
You should pay more attention. I haven't done that. I HAVE shown how Calvinist theology paints Him.
Of course God is neither a puppet master or brute. But it is YOUR theology that paints Him that way.
No, God is NOT a puppet master, as you are STILL painting Him. Nor a brute, forcing things on totally depraved people who would never want what He forces on them (in your theology).
You should pay more attention. I haven't done that. I HAVE shown how Calvinist theology paints Him.
FreeGrace2 said:
If man is accountable, yet God makes all the choices and FORCES all the actions, man cannot be accountable.
It is just sad that you cannot see the contradiction between your statements here and your theology.
You say man is accountable, but you deny that man is free to choose. You can't have it both ways. If you think man is accountable for choices that God makes, there is no reason to continue a discussion with you. It would be hopeless since you can't figure out reality.
This contradicts all you've posted previously. You have said that God elects some to believe and doesn't choose others to believe, and now you claim that people accept the offer of grace. That's impossible since man is totally depraved.
What you should have said is that God FORCES some to accept the offer of grace and FORCES others to reject the offer of grace.
In your theories, God is CAUSING all this. It's a FORCED gift. Which destroys the whole idea of salvation even being a gift.
Gifts are NOT forced. Ever.
No, in your theory, God doesn't choose those that "reject the offer". So they are, in fact, PREVENTED from accepting the offer.
There is no grace in your theories. Just brute force. God toying with His creatures, who are nothing more than puppets.
If man is accountable, yet God makes all the choices and FORCES all the actions, man cannot be accountable.
It is just sad that you cannot see the contradiction between your statements here and your theology.
You say man is accountable, but you deny that man is free to choose. You can't have it both ways. If you think man is accountable for choices that God makes, there is no reason to continue a discussion with you. It would be hopeless since you can't figure out reality.
This contradicts all you've posted previously. You have said that God elects some to believe and doesn't choose others to believe, and now you claim that people accept the offer of grace. That's impossible since man is totally depraved.
What you should have said is that God FORCES some to accept the offer of grace and FORCES others to reject the offer of grace.
In your theories, God is CAUSING all this. It's a FORCED gift. Which destroys the whole idea of salvation even being a gift.
Gifts are NOT forced. Ever.
No, in your theory, God doesn't choose those that "reject the offer". So they are, in fact, PREVENTED from accepting the offer.
There is no grace in your theories. Just brute force. God toying with His creatures, who are nothing more than puppets.
Thank you.
Could you please make up your mind?
What do you mean "everlasting feast"? Do you currently observe the Mosaic Law?
First, I don't agree with Jerry on anything. He can't provide any verses that say what he claims.
It is the Law in its entirety that was given to show mankind (not just Jews) that they are sinful and in need of a Savior. But all the commands in the NT are meant to be obeyed. So you have to specify which commands you are referring to.
I don't owe you or Jerry any apology, because I haven't done anything except to explain how Jerry's theories are not biblical.
My position has long been to pray that the Holy Spirit will convict unbelievers, that God would lead believers to cross the path of unbelievers who can effectively give the gospel. Things like that.
However, Paul is on record for praying for the salvation of others.
Well, you tell me the difference. Jerry's posts are extreme. He paints God as a puppet master and brute who FORCES His will on all of mankind. Forcing some to "accept the offer of grace" but preventing others from doing the same.
Again, you tell me the difference.
Tell that to Jerry. His posts are quite clear. He even relishes his view that God forced him to believe.
Yes, salvation is God's plan. But God's plan is that all be saved, per 1 Tim 2:4-6, and man is without excuse, per Rom 1:21. And God is pleased to save those who believe, per 1 Cor 1:21.
But Jerry remains firm that God CAUSES belief in all who believe. And all without any verse.
Sure.
Could you please make up your mind?
What do you mean "everlasting feast"? Do you currently observe the Mosaic Law?
First, I don't agree with Jerry on anything. He can't provide any verses that say what he claims.
It is the Law in its entirety that was given to show mankind (not just Jews) that they are sinful and in need of a Savior. But all the commands in the NT are meant to be obeyed. So you have to specify which commands you are referring to.
I don't owe you or Jerry any apology, because I haven't done anything except to explain how Jerry's theories are not biblical.
My position has long been to pray that the Holy Spirit will convict unbelievers, that God would lead believers to cross the path of unbelievers who can effectively give the gospel. Things like that.
However, Paul is on record for praying for the salvation of others.
Well, you tell me the difference. Jerry's posts are extreme. He paints God as a puppet master and brute who FORCES His will on all of mankind. Forcing some to "accept the offer of grace" but preventing others from doing the same.
Again, you tell me the difference.
Tell that to Jerry. His posts are quite clear. He even relishes his view that God forced him to believe.
Yes, salvation is God's plan. But God's plan is that all be saved, per 1 Tim 2:4-6, and man is without excuse, per Rom 1:21. And God is pleased to save those who believe, per 1 Cor 1:21.
But Jerry remains firm that God CAUSES belief in all who believe. And all without any verse.
Sure.
-
1
- Show all
No, you have, by your unbiblical views of who God is and what He CAUSES.
You have claimed you are happy that God forced you to believe. That show that you are just a plaything with God, one of His toys that He manipulates, just like a puppet.
I, otoh, am a child of God, in union with His Son. I have an inheritance reserved for me in heaven on that basis.
I don't recall that toys have any kind of inheritance. Toys break. When they do, they are discarded. Think about it.
You have claimed you are happy that God forced you to believe. That show that you are just a plaything with God, one of His toys that He manipulates, just like a puppet.
I, otoh, am a child of God, in union with His Son. I have an inheritance reserved for me in heaven on that basis.
I don't recall that toys have any kind of inheritance. Toys break. When they do, they are discarded. Think about it.
This shall be a statute forever for you
(Leviticus 16:29)
the real question is what did God mean by calling it a statute forever? thanks -- so Paul ((and you)) evidently believe that God supernaturally intervenes in an unbeliever's heart & mind, bringing about belief.
otherwise there is no point in praying for the lost. praying for the lost 100% implies we expect God to change them, i.e. that coming to faith is not a 'human-will-only' event, but involves the work of God - that salvation is His work, not ours.
hypercalvinism asserts that there is no human free will whatsoever, implying that God is the author of sin.
reformed theology, commonly called calvinism when it's being attacked, asserts that man, apart from the intervening work of God, indeed has free will but only uses that will to do evil, owing to the depravity of man brought about by the pervasive infection of sin.
typically people accuse anyone who believes in a sovereign God of being hypercalvinist.
typically people accuse anyone who believes man has free agency and is culpable for their choices of being pelagian.
typically neither such people are correct, and a 50 page argument erupts with each side talking past the other.
i'd love for this to be the exception to the general rule
FreeGrace2 said:
How come you can't provide any verses that teach this?
Why are you deflecting from my question?
Where have I said what you claim? I know from Scripture that faith PRECEDES both regeneration and salvation. I do agree that regeneration and salvation occur at the same time.
Here is the biblical proof for all this.
Eph 2:5 - made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
Here, Paul is explaining the first set of red words with the last set of red words. The verse begins with regeneration and ends with salvation. Paul is basically equating the 2. You can't have one without the other.
Eph 2:8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
So, 3 verses after v.5 we have this verse. The blue words are the exact same as the ending words in v.5.
Here, Paul clarifies HOW one is saved; through faith.
So, in order to be saved, faith must be present. That's what "through" means.
This agrees with Paul's answer to the jailer's question of what he MUST DO to be saved. Paul said "believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved".
So, the basis of salvation is faith in Christ. Not election, not God CAUSING faith.
And you STILL HAVE NOT provided any verses that say what you claim.
How come you can't provide any verses that teach this?
Why are you deflecting from my question?
Where have I said what you claim? I know from Scripture that faith PRECEDES both regeneration and salvation. I do agree that regeneration and salvation occur at the same time.
Here is the biblical proof for all this.
Eph 2:5 - made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
Here, Paul is explaining the first set of red words with the last set of red words. The verse begins with regeneration and ends with salvation. Paul is basically equating the 2. You can't have one without the other.
Eph 2:8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
So, 3 verses after v.5 we have this verse. The blue words are the exact same as the ending words in v.5.
Here, Paul clarifies HOW one is saved; through faith.
So, in order to be saved, faith must be present. That's what "through" means.
This agrees with Paul's answer to the jailer's question of what he MUST DO to be saved. Paul said "believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved".
So, the basis of salvation is faith in Christ. Not election, not God CAUSING faith.
And you STILL HAVE NOT provided any verses that say what you claim.