Biblical Eternal Security vs 'Calvinistic Eternal Security' -by Gregg Jackson

[FreeGrace2]

I would go to a thesaurus instead. But I don't need to because the two are not synonymous.

Right. Your mind is made up, so don't bother with the facts. Got it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

"Abundant" is in Weymouth, not the NIV.

You need to quit obsessing with that translation.

 

[JerryInBoston]

Right. Your mind is made up, so don't bother with the facts. Got it.

Not your alternative facts.

 

[JerryInBoston]

You need to quit obsessing with that translation.

It's your translation, not mine.

 

[fredoheaven]

1 John 5:11-12


11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.


John 5:40


40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Coming to Christ is to have eternal life (regeneration). Life is in the Son. so, you must come to possess or have the Son to have life

 

[FreeGrace2]

Not your alternative facts.

lol. I've given you lots of Scripture that refute your talking points.

You have no Scripture that supports your talking points. Titus 2:11 is a very STRONG refutation of your theory.

You believe God CAUSES (FORCES) people to believe.

The verse says the grace of God OFFERS salvation to everyone.

Huge difference.

Obviously, the alternate "facts" are yours.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It's your translation, not mine.

I've aleady explained that it's not, but you just keep on not listening.

There's no reason to keep discussing with someone who either can't focus or just doesn't want to.

 

[JerryInBoston]

lol. I've given you lots of Scripture that refute your talking points.

You have no Scripture that supports your talking points. Titus 2:11 is a very STRONG refutation of your theory.

You believe God CAUSES (FORCES) people to believe.

The verse says the grace of God OFFERS salvation to everyone.

Huge difference.

Obviously, the alternate "facts" are yours.

I have all the scriptre I need to know that, yes, God causes people to believe, but HE doesn't use physical force as you're suggesting. You're a NIV paraphraser, so no wonder you're not getting the full counsel of God's word. God's offer of grace is what gifts some with persevering faith, as HE did with me. Thank you Lord. ❤

 

[JerryInBoston]

I've aleady explained that it's not, but you just keep on not listening.

There's no reason to keep discussing with someone who either can't focus or just doesn't want to.

Go away, then, you who study from a corrupt paraphrase.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I have all the scriptre I need to know that, yes, God causes people to believe

See? Here you claim what the Bible does NOT teach. So why do you believe it?

but HE doesn't use physical force as you're suggesting.

To CAUSE someone or something to DO something, does require FORCE. I'm not speaking about thousands of pounds of force, as you seem to be confused about. But the simple fact is that to CAUSE something/someone to DO something means force IS used.

You're a NIV paraphraser

I suggest that you educate yourself on the different translations and which ones actually are paraphrases. To call the NIV a paraphrase is worse than uneducated.

so no wonder you're not getting the full counsel of God's word. God's offer of grace is what gifts some with persevering faith, as HE did with me. Thank you Lord. ❤

Why don't you just exegete Titus 2:11 then?

Just tell us what Paul meant by that verse.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Go away, then, you who study from a corrupt paraphrase.

Educate yourself.

 

[fredoheaven]

I've aleady explained that it's not, but you just keep on not listening.

There's no reason to keep discussing with someone who either can't focus or just doesn't want to.

Yes FG, I thought this is a Bible Discussion Forum. It's good that parties centers discussion on the Bible. If others don't do that, then that's the big problem and it seems you are engaging to others with a non-biblical view.

 

[JerryInBoston]

See? Here you claim what the Bible does NOT teach. So why do you believe it?


To CAUSE someone or something to DO something, does require FORCE. I'm not speaking about thousands of pounds of force, as you seem to be confused about. But the simple fact is that to CAUSE something/someone to DO something means force IS used.


I suggest that you educate yourself on the different translations and which ones actually are paraphrases. To call the NIV a paraphrase is worse than uneducated.


Why don't you just exegete Titus 2:11 then?

Just tell us what Paul meant by that verse.

The Bible indeed teaches faith is a gift of God's grace and God uses HIS grace offer to cause dead souls to respond. I've proven it with scripture, you can disagree all you want, it won't make you right.

So, it's not brute force as you suggested before. More like coaxing, gently nudging, is that what you're saying now. Pffft. You are a real wizz-bang.

God brings dead people to life. How? By force? Try opening your eyes: it's by the power of the Holy Spirit. Power? Must be some awesome power to be able to raise the dead. But, then again, you deny that God's omnipotence includes HIS ability to cause the dead to come alive. And you call yourself a believer? Weird.

Just because you say it, or its publishers say its a literal translation, NIV is a paraphrase, and you're in denial again.

Titus 2:11-12. "11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to everyone. 12 It instructs us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live sensible, upright, and godly lives"

Grace saves everyone of the called, the elect and instructs us, the called, the elect. How does grace instruct? By and thorough the gift of persevering faith. Eph. 2:8.

 

[JerryInBoston]

Educate yourself.

I am educated (Doctorate), and I continue to pursue truth and learn from some of the best, both those still here and those with the Lord. And luckily for me, I also get to learn how not to interpret and believe from the likes of those like yourself who advocate unbiblical positions, and hold to unbiblical antinomian and hypergrace views. So, thank you. 😃

 

[FreeGrace2]

The Bible indeed teaches faith is a gift of God's grace and God uses HIS grace offer to cause dead souls to respond.

Wow, what a perversion of the Word. Where do you get the idea that a "grace offer is used to CAUSE (make that FORCE) a dead soul to respond". All you've got are very tired Calvinist talking points. None of which are found in Scripture.

I've proven it with scripture, you can disagree all you want, it won't make you right.

What would make you right is to provide the Scripture that proves your claims. Which you haven't, and saying you have repeatedly doesn't make it right.

So, it's not brute force as you suggested before.

Now your twisting and perverting my words as well. I NEVER EVER said "brute force". Please quit being so dishonest.

To CAUSE something means to FORCE it. There's no way around it.

An OFFER is the OPPOSITE of using FORCE.

God brings dead people to life. How? By force?

I wasn't talking about regeneration. Of course that is God's action directly. Why do you keep wanting to change the subject?

The issue is believing. The Bible says man believes from his heart. Jerry says man believes because God CAUSES him to. That's FORCE, any way you want to slice it.

Just because you say it, or its publishers say its a literal translation, NIV is a paraphrase, and you're in denial again.

Again, you don't know what you are talking about. Prove your claim that the NIV is a paraphrase.

Titus 2:11-12. "11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to everyone. 12 It instructs us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live sensible, upright, and godly lives"

Grace saves everyone of the called, the elect and instructs us, the called, the elect. How does grace instruct? By and thorough the gift of persevering faith. Eph. 2:8.

Grace OFFERS salvation to everyone. Calvinism denies that clear fact.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I am educated (Doctorate), and I continue to pursue truth and learn from some of the best, both those still here and those with the Lord.

It doesn't show, with all your false claims and dishonest insinuations, and total failure to prove anything you say from Scripture.

And please, prove your ridiculous claim that the NIV is a paraphrase.

What you obviously don't know is that true translations are 1 of 2 kinds; formal and dynamic. But since you claim to be educated, I'll let you do the research for yourself. And while you're at it, find the proof that the NIV is a paraphrase.

 

[JerryInBoston]

It doesn't show, with all your false claims and dishonest insinuations, and total failure to prove anything you say from Scripture.

And please, prove your ridiculous claim that the NIV is a paraphrase.

What you obviously don't know is that true translations are 1 of 2 kinds; formal and dynamic. But since you claim to be educated, I'll let you do the research for yourself. And while you're at it, find the proof that the NIV is a paraphrase.

Wow, what a perversion of the Word. Where do you get the idea that a "grace offer is used to CAUSE (make that FORCE) a dead soul to respond". All you've got are very tired Calvinist talking points. None of which are found in Scripture.


What would make you right is to provide the Scripture that proves your claims. Which you haven't, and saying you have repeatedly doesn't make it right.


Now your twisting and perverting my words as well. I NEVER EVER said "brute force". Please quit being so dishonest.

To CAUSE something means to FORCE it. There's no way around it.

An OFFER is the OPPOSITE of using FORCE.


I wasn't talking about regeneration. Of course that is God's action directly. Why do you keep wanting to change the subject?

The issue is believing. The Bible says man believes from his heart. Jerry says man believes because God CAUSES him to. That's FORCE, any way you want to slice it.


Again, you don't know what you are talking about. Prove your claim that the NIV is a paraphrase.


Grace OFFERS salvation to everyone. Calvinism denies that clear fact.

You're trapped in wrong antinomian hypergrace theology. I'll pray for you. Bye bye 👋

 

[FreeGrace2]

I am educated (Doctorate)

Then please explain why you believe God CAUSES people to believe when not only there are no verses that say that, but Titus 2;11 says "the grace of God OFFERS salvation to everyone".

Explain why you can't understand that claiming that God CAUSES people to believe or not is the same thing as puppetry.

Explain why you can't understand that "more" and "abundant" are not totally different words.

Explain why you think there is such a thing as too much grace, with your pejorative "hyper-grace".

 

[FreeGrace2]

You're trapped in wrong antinomian hypergrace theology. I'll pray for you. Bye bye 👋

First, I don't agree with any antinomian theology. But you are free to try to prove that I have.

Second, do you understand the reuirements for being on praying ground? The Bible is clear.

So, it's bye bye, huh.

Well, that lets you off the hook for any explations. Slick. You can't prove that the NIV is a paraphrase translation.

You can't prove any of your Calvinist talking points from Scripture.

So, taking the easy way out.

 

[Evmur]

Again, as I said once before, you at least seem to be consistent with your beliefs . . . !

Many people will tell me that if a person commits gross sin that is proof that they were never born again. Following that line of reasoning you must continue to do good works in order to have assurance of salvation. Because if you do not continue to do good works (or at least if you start doing too many bad ones) that will be seen as evidence that you were never born again.

But you insist that a Christian is capable and indeed may commit gross sins. But then you also say that "God would not allow a Christian to get to that level" of what I mentioned in the example. And you are now the second person I have known that comes though and clearly without reservation says that "God would kill that Christian and take him home early to heaven before it got that bad." Perhaps you think this is the "sin unto death" in I John 5?

I find that a quite fascinating concept that God will kill the believer who goes too far into sin . . . ! I don't agree with you on it, but again, at least you are consistent with you reasoning. (And I doubt you can show me a Scripture that clearly states that God will do this to a Chistian who starts sinning too much).

Well, I have a live real test case for you:

Bruce Gerencser is an evangelical pastor of some 20 + years turned atheist: by his own words he professed deep faith in Jesus, but now is an avowed atheist with a ministry to evangelicals!

I have just a few clips from one of his articles below: For more go to his website

The Life and Times of Bruce Gerencser | One Man's Journey ...
https://brucegerencser.net


Lacy prayed for those of us who had raised our hands and then had everyone stand. As the congregation sang Just as I am, Lacy said, “if you raised your hand, I want you to step out of your seat and come to the altar. Someone will meet you there and show you how you can know Jesus as your Lord and Savior.” Much to the surprise of my friends, I haltingly stepped out from my seat and walked to the front. I was met by Ray Salisbury — a church deacon. Ray had me kneel as he took me through a set of Bible verses called the Roman’s Road. After quizzing me on what I had read, Ray asked me if I wanted to be saved. I said, “yes,” and then Ray said, “pray this prayer after me: Dear Lord Jesus, I know I am a sinner, and I know you died on the cross for my sins. Right now, I ask you to forgive me of my sins and come into my heart and save me. In Jesus’ name, Amen.” After I prayed the prayer, Ray said, “AMEN!” “Did you really believe what you prayed?” I replied, “yes.” “Then you are now a child of God, a born-again Christian.”

The next Sunday, I was baptized, and the Sunday after that, I went forward again, letting the church know that you, Jesus, were calling me to preach. I was all in after that. For the next thirty-five years, Jesus, I lived and breathed you. You were my life, the sum of my existence.


After moving, I quickly secured secular employment and began working at a local IFB church. For the next twenty-five years, I pastored Evangelical churches in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Jesus, you were my constant companion, my lover, friend, and confidante. I sure loved you, and I believed you loved me too. We were BFFs, right? Sometimes, I wondered if you really loved me as much as I loved you. Our love affair was virtual in nature. We never met face-to-face, but I believed in my heart of hearts you were the very reason for my existence. When I doubted this, I attributed my doubts to Satan or me not praying hard enough or reading the Bible enough. I never thought for one moment, Jesus, that you might be a figment of my imagination, a lie taught to me by my parents and pastors. I was a true believer. That is, until I wasn’t.

At age fifty, I finally realized, Jesus, that you were a myth, the main character of a 2,000-year-old fictional story. I finally concluded that all those times when I wondered where you were, were in fact, true. I couldn’t find you because you were dead. You had died almost 2,000 years before. The Bible told me about your death, but I really believed that you were resurrected from the dead. I feel so silly now. Dead people don’t come back to life. Your resurrection from the dead was just a campfire story, and I had foolishly believed it. I guess I shouldn’t be too hard on myself. Everyone I knew believed the same story. All of us believed that the miracles attributed to you, Jesus, really happened; that you were a virgin-born God-man; that you ascended to Heaven to prepare a mansion for us to live in after we die.

It all seems so silly now, Jesus, but I really did believe in you. Fifty years, Jesus. The prime of my life, I gave to you, only to find out that you were a lie.

If you ever want to talk to me, you know where I live. Show up at my door, Jesus, and that will be a miracle I can believe in. Better yet, if you can help the Cincinnati Bengals win the Super Bowl, that would be awesome!

If you can’t help my football team win a few games, Jesus, what good are you? It’s not like I am asking you to feed the hungry, heal the sick, or put an end to violence and war. That would require you to give a shit, Jesus, and if there’s one thing I have learned over the past sixty-four years, it is this: you don’t give a shit about what happens on earth. We, humans, are on our own, and that’s fine with me.

A Sinner Saved by Reason,

Bruce

Now, for Bruce, what is it?

(1) Was he never born again?
(2) Is he going down the road that God will kill him soon? (if so, according to your view, he still has the new nature, and would still go to heaven if he dies).

And Bruce is not an isolated case: there are hundreds of ones like this out there . . .

There is not an atom of proof in Bruce's story to show that the Holy Spirit did a work of grace in his heart, his "salvation" was wholly contrived by men.

The gospel command is to repent and believe. Not stand up and come to the altar. read a prayer ...