How is that? I was pointing out the present tense for both 'believe' and 'has'. Essentially, a believing person possesses eternal life.
And that clearly means the MOMENT they believe they possess eternal life. iow, Jesus gives eternal life WHEN a person believes.
If you disagree, what verses show that the possession of eternal life is some time after believing?
[QUOT]This verse clearly states that the one hearing the Word and is believing on the one (The Father) who sent Christ, is proof that they already have eternal life.
No, that is poor grammatical sense. Jesus was speaking in the present tense. You're trying to force the past tense into the statement.
Do you think a person has eternal life before they believe? That's what it seems you believe.
It doesn't say that at all. Yes, John used participles (he sure liked them). But the usual English translations mean the same thing.
Those who now believe now have eternal life.
[QUIOTE]Why do I say this is the proper interpretation?[/QUOTE]
I have no clue.
Nope. It should be obvious that John wasn't referring to believing relative to his own present tense, but to those who believe, do so in their own present tense. So, whenever a person believes, it is the present tense WHEN they believe. That's all.
And, the MOMENT one believes, that is when they "have passed out of death into life". iow, the life that they pass INTO is eternal life, which is possessed the MOMENT one believes.
Doesn't matter. No one can perform an action in the past tense. When one does perform an action, it is in the present when they do it.
Impossible. We didn't exist back then. Jesus was talking about WHEN one believes is when all the actions in the verse take place.
Nope. That is a Calvinist talking point.
There are no verses that show that regeneration, or the new birth, occurs BEFORE or SO THAT one can believe.
In fact, Eph 2:5 and 8 prove that both salvation and regeneration occur AFTER believing.
v.5 -
made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—
it is by grace you have been saved.
v.8 - For
it is by grace you have been saved,
through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
The red words refer to regeneration, and the blue words at the end of v.5 refer to salvation.
The end of v.5 is found at the beginning of v.8. Then Paul clarifies HOW both regeneration and salvation occur: "through faith", the green words.
This proves that regeneration is through faith and salvation is through faith.
iow, the faith is present BEFORE regeneration and salvation.
Hopefully Eph 2:5 and 8 will show you the truth.
That is simply not true. Just another Calvinist talking point.
Nope. If this were true, why did God reveal Himself through creation to mankind so that no one has any excuse, and why did God create mankind with a conscience, with which to understand right from wrong??
He revealed Himself and gave man a conscience PRECISELY because man is able to believe or reject the gospel.
Do you understand that rejecting something is a choice. And a choice must have at least 2 options. In the case of rejecting, the other option is accepting or believing.
Acts 14:2 - But the
Jews who refused to believe stirred up the other Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers.
Acts 19:9 - But some of them became obstinate;
they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them. He took the disciples with him and had discussions daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus.
Rev 16:9 - They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but
they refused to repent and glorify him.
Rev 16:11 - and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but
they refused to repent of what they had done.
These verses prove that man is able to believe and repent.
A person CANNOT refuse something they are unable to do. That would be an insane claim, to refuse what you can't do.[/QUOTE]
I gave explanation, to put out the proper understanding of the Perfect tense verb, used in this verse and it's implications. The fact that you chose to ignore what a perfect tense verb means, is irrelevant. Look up the definition for the perfect tense in the Koine Greek. I in no way, expected you to except this interpretation because I know your Theology. However:
As previously stated:
" All believers know, that the "new Birth" must take place first, in order to change ones "nature" from darkness and enmity with God, to light and love for God.
You said in response:
"Nope. That is a Calvinist talking point."
A complete and total dodge of the above issue.
- Does or does not, Scripture clearly teach, that fallen mankind is "dead in trespasses and sin"?
- Does Scripture clearly teach, that all of mankind IS "Darkness" in this fallen state?
- Does Scripture clearly teach, that This was the primary reason why fallen mankind will not and indeed is not able to come to Christ?
On the last question, Scripture says:
Pro_2:13 Who forsake the paths of uprightness, To walk in the ways of darkness;
Pro_4:19 The way of the wicked is as darkness: They know not at what they stumble.
Hos_7:14 And they have not cried unto me with their heart, but they howl upon their beds: they assemble themselves for grain and new wine; they rebel against me.
John_1:5 And the light shineth in the darkness; and the darkness apprehended it not.
John_3:19 And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil.
John_3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, lest his works should be reproved.
John_3:21 But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God.
Eph_5:8 for ye were once darkness, but are now light in the Lord: walk as children of light
Col_1:13 who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love;
Isa_45:7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create calamity. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.
You stated later, that for a person to do something against their nature was perfectly normal. (my words). I stated that a person who was "darkness" and at "Enmity" with God cannot choose the light and to love God out of such a nature.
You apparently have never heard the old expression, used in the world: "A Leopard cannot change it's spots." Even in human Phycology, which I hate by the way, they would say, that one acting outside of ones nature is abnormal. Yet, you seem to think such activity is perfectly normal. Does not Scripture even teach, that we naturally follow the desires of our heart and these desires are against God? Does not Scripture say, That the desires of the heart are desperately wicked?
The answer to the above is YES !!! Scripture makes clear these things.
This is why, God must do this, in order to alter man's desires, enabling that man to come to Christ.
Eze_36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
Heb_9:14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish unto God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Finally you concluded with:
"A person CANNOT refuse something they are unable to do. That would be an insane claim, to refuse what you can't do."
In your conclusion, you seemed to be confused on the issue. First you said, "...are unable to do" but then you said, "...can't do". One deals with natural inability and the other permissive ability. Scripture states that one lacks
the natural ability to come to Christ, not that one is
being denied access to Christ. A person, not
being able to come because of their fallen nature, is not a fault of God. Indeed, God Himself is the solution. In John 6:44, this speaks of inability, not denial.
The error in you Soteriological view, could be summed up like this: You believe that The Great Shephard of the Sheep is offering eternal life to Goats. He is must definitely not. He is rounding up the Flock and the Flock is made of Sheep. Christ is not called the Great Shephard of the Sheep and Goats.
John 10:14-16 I am the good shepherd; and I know mine own, and mine own know me, even as the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd.
By your logic, you would have the Goats (by nature) become Sheep. The lost Sheep are mixed with the Goats but when the Shephard calls, the Sheep hear His voice - not the Goats. The Sheep go to Him not the Goats. Even those who look like the Sheep, know not the Shephard's true voice. Goats and false sheep cannot become the Sheep and the Sheep cannot become Goats or false sheep. This would be unnatural and as touching Soteriology, no blood has been applied. For this Great Shephard, only died for the Sheep - His Flock that the Father gave Him.
