Biblical Eternal Security vs 'Calvinistic Eternal Security' -by Gregg Jackson
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Let's be reasonable about this. This isn't about "intention" at all. You're just adding your opinions into the mix.
Free will means freedom to choose among options. There are many "intentions" that are IMPOSSIBLE to achieve.
No, the gift of grace is salvation itself. Eph 2:8 says we are saved by grace through faith.
Titus 2:11 says "the grace of God that brings (OFFERS) salvation has appeared to everyone."
Believing is from the heart, per Rom 10:9, not from God, as Calvinists assume.
God does NOT cause anyone to believe. But God WANTS everyone to believe. 1 Tim 2:4-6
Free will means freedom to choose among options. There are many "intentions" that are IMPOSSIBLE to achieve.
No, the gift of grace is salvation itself. Eph 2:8 says we are saved by grace through faith.
Titus 2:11 says "the grace of God that brings (OFFERS) salvation has appeared to everyone."
Believing is from the heart, per Rom 10:9, not from God, as Calvinists assume.
God does NOT cause anyone to believe. But God WANTS everyone to believe. 1 Tim 2:4-6
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I wish Calvinists could read Eph 1:4 with accuracy. The verse does NOT say "chosen to be in Christ". The words "in Him" is a parenthesis, which identifies who the "us" are; believers, who are "in Him".
And, Paul actually defined the word "us" in v.19 - "us who believe".
So v.4 is a choice or election of believers, those who are already saved.
Yes, the choice was made before the foundation of the world. God's choice was for all believers to be "holy and blameless". That's the purpose of His choice in v.4. The English is clear.
And, Paul actually defined the word "us" in v.19 - "us who believe".
So v.4 is a choice or election of believers, those who are already saved.
Yes, the choice was made before the foundation of the world. God's choice was for all believers to be "holy and blameless". That's the purpose of His choice in v.4. The English is clear.
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FreeGrace2 said:
I wish Calvinists could read Eph 1:4 with accuracy. The verse does NOT say "chosen to be in Christ". The words "in Him" is a parenthesis, which identifies who the "us" are; believers, who are "in Him".
And, Paul actually defined the word "us" in v.19 - "us who believe".
So v.4 is a choice or election of believers, those who are already saved.
Yes, the choice was made before the foundation of the world. God's choice was for all believers to be "holy and blameless". That's the purpose of His choice in v.4. The English is clear.
What is "a mess"? I've stated what the Bible says.
Can you show me from the Bible where I have misstated anything?
I wish Calvinists could read Eph 1:4 with accuracy. The verse does NOT say "chosen to be in Christ". The words "in Him" is a parenthesis, which identifies who the "us" are; believers, who are "in Him".
And, Paul actually defined the word "us" in v.19 - "us who believe".
So v.4 is a choice or election of believers, those who are already saved.
Yes, the choice was made before the foundation of the world. God's choice was for all believers to be "holy and blameless". That's the purpose of His choice in v.4. The English is clear.
What is "a mess"? I've stated what the Bible says.
Can you show me from the Bible where I have misstated anything?
Right! People either TAKE the free gift of eternal life, by faith, or they DON'T take it.
Those who have it "shall never perish", per John 10:28. Those who don't shall "be cast into the lake of fire", per Rev 20:15.
The only requirement for spending eternity with God and not going to the lake of fire is to have His life, which is eternal life.
The only criteria for possessing eternal life is believing in the Lord Jesus Christ for it. John 5:24
Those who have it "shall never perish", per John 10:28. Those who don't shall "be cast into the lake of fire", per Rev 20:15.
The only requirement for spending eternity with God and not going to the lake of fire is to have His life, which is eternal life.
The only criteria for possessing eternal life is believing in the Lord Jesus Christ for it. John 5:24
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Ah, no. Faith is given by God. 2 Thessalonians 3 As for other matters, brothers and sisters, pray for us that the message of the Lord may spread rapidly and be honored, just as it was with you. 2 And pray that we may be delivered from wicked and evil people, for not everyone has faith.
You can't believe by faith if you don''t have faith.
In Mark 6 Jesus can't do miracles because the people lack faith. 4 But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house. 5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them. 6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.
They not only had no faith, they had so little faith between them Jesus himself found it surprising. Which led him to carry out Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Which isn't a line that would exist in itself if people had faith in them to start with. Particularly since the context of the verse is that the people Paul's talking about did hear, and not all of them believed.
If you want to get technical, and hearing by the word of God, would pair up with John !, where we see the thing that he thought was the most important fact to open his Gospel with In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. So, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by God.
You can't believe by faith if you don''t have faith.
In Mark 6 Jesus can't do miracles because the people lack faith. 4 But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house. 5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them. 6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.
They not only had no faith, they had so little faith between them Jesus himself found it surprising. Which led him to carry out Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Which isn't a line that would exist in itself if people had faith in them to start with. Particularly since the context of the verse is that the people Paul's talking about did hear, and not all of them believed.
If you want to get technical, and hearing by the word of God, would pair up with John !, where we see the thing that he thought was the most important fact to open his Gospel with In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. So, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by God.
FreeGrace2 said:
Right! People either TAKE the free gift of eternal life, by faith, or they DON'T take it.
Those who have it "shall never perish", per John 10:28. Those who don't shall "be cast into the lake of fire", per Rev 20:15.
The only requirement for spending eternity with God and not going to the lake of fire is to have His life, which is eternal life.
The only criteria for possessing eternal life is believing in the Lord Jesus Christ for it. John 5:24
OK, then. Apparently you don't believe either John 5:24 and 10:28 then. Why don't you?
The bolded words do not support your claim. If faith is given by God, as you suppose, then why does God hold man accountable for his unbelief? How does that make sense? It doesn't. Rom 10:9 says man believes from the heart. It does NOT say that man believes from God.
Do you know what the word even means?
Do you really think the people's lack of faith limited what Jesus could do?? Why do you believe the unbelieving people had more power than Jesus?
I wonder what your definition of faith is, based on this. Rom 10:17 teaches that faith COMES BY HEARING THE WORD OF GOD.
iow, only when a person hears the gospel can then believe it. They can't believe what they haven't heard. You are reading way more into it than is warranted.
Well, that's because when the gospel is presented, the person is faced with a choice; to either believe what God promises or not.
Uh, no. That's not what it means.
Again, one must hear before they can believe. That's the message.
Right! People either TAKE the free gift of eternal life, by faith, or they DON'T take it.
Those who have it "shall never perish", per John 10:28. Those who don't shall "be cast into the lake of fire", per Rev 20:15.
The only requirement for spending eternity with God and not going to the lake of fire is to have His life, which is eternal life.
The only criteria for possessing eternal life is believing in the Lord Jesus Christ for it. John 5:24
OK, then. Apparently you don't believe either John 5:24 and 10:28 then. Why don't you?
The bolded words do not support your claim. If faith is given by God, as you suppose, then why does God hold man accountable for his unbelief? How does that make sense? It doesn't. Rom 10:9 says man believes from the heart. It does NOT say that man believes from God.
Do you know what the word even means?
Do you really think the people's lack of faith limited what Jesus could do?? Why do you believe the unbelieving people had more power than Jesus?
I wonder what your definition of faith is, based on this. Rom 10:17 teaches that faith COMES BY HEARING THE WORD OF GOD.
iow, only when a person hears the gospel can then believe it. They can't believe what they haven't heard. You are reading way more into it than is warranted.
Well, that's because when the gospel is presented, the person is faced with a choice; to either believe what God promises or not.
Uh, no. That's not what it means.
Again, one must hear before they can believe. That's the message.
Isn't that exactly my arguement? *Checks* Why, it appears we agree, people cannot limit what Jesus can do.
Again, what part of my post pointing out that Jesus himself delt with a lack of faith by teaching makes you think I disagree with this statement?
James 3
13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let them show it by their good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14 But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15 Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. 16 For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice. 17 But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18 Peacemakers who sow in peace reap a harvest of righteousness.
Are you trying to tell me that people come to Jesus through demonic wisdom?
The Gospel is, in fact, Spiritual, correct? 1 Corinthians 1:18
For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but it is the power of God to us who are being saved. 19 For it is written,
I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and I will set aside the intelligence of the intelligent.
Chapter 2 has
10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,
“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”
But we have the mind of Christ.
You don't have the mind of Christ before you get saved, which puts you amoung the perishing, to whom the Gospel is foolishness. The wisdom of this world cannot comprehend it.
Again, what part of my post pointing out that Jesus himself delt with a lack of faith by teaching makes you think I disagree with this statement?
James 3
13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let them show it by their good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14 But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15 Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. 16 For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice. 17 But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18 Peacemakers who sow in peace reap a harvest of righteousness.
Are you trying to tell me that people come to Jesus through demonic wisdom?
The Gospel is, in fact, Spiritual, correct? 1 Corinthians 1:18
For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but it is the power of God to us who are being saved. 19 For it is written,
I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and I will set aside the intelligence of the intelligent.
Chapter 2 has
10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,
“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”
But we have the mind of Christ.
You don't have the mind of Christ before you get saved, which puts you amoung the perishing, to whom the Gospel is foolishness. The wisdom of this world cannot comprehend it.
You don't seem to understand what the bible is saying, you seem to approach God's word with a view to contradicting it.
Romans. 6.
What then are we to sin because we are not under the law but under grace? God forbid. Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin which leads to death or of obedience which leads to to righteousness.
Romans. 6.
What then are we to sin because we are not under the law but under grace? God forbid. Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin which leads to death or of obedience which leads to to righteousness.
FreeGrace2 said:
Do you really think the people's lack of faith limited what Jesus could do?? Why do you believe the unbelieving people had more power than Jesus?
From your post, it appeared that you think unbelieving people had more power than Jesus.
The way you phrased it.
Are you serious? Of course not. Why would you even think that?
Uh, no, it's not. It's a promise from God to the human race. Everyone is able to understand it and then either believe it or not.
If you would carefully study ALL of ch 2, you would have noticed the point that Paul was making. It was not about unbelievers being unable to understand the gospel, as so many confused believers assume.
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
The bolded words show what Paul's point was. Paul was speaking to mature believers, who CAN understand deep doctrines. That is what unbelievers cannot understand; deep doctrines.
The gospel is NOT a deep doctrine. It's a simple and clear promise about eternal life.
A promise that every person can understand. Many don't care, and many don't even believe in God. But they have no excuse. Rom 1:19-21
Do you really think the people's lack of faith limited what Jesus could do?? Why do you believe the unbelieving people had more power than Jesus?
From your post, it appeared that you think unbelieving people had more power than Jesus.
The way you phrased it.
Are you serious? Of course not. Why would you even think that?
Uh, no, it's not. It's a promise from God to the human race. Everyone is able to understand it and then either believe it or not.
If you would carefully study ALL of ch 2, you would have noticed the point that Paul was making. It was not about unbelievers being unable to understand the gospel, as so many confused believers assume.
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
The bolded words show what Paul's point was. Paul was speaking to mature believers, who CAN understand deep doctrines. That is what unbelievers cannot understand; deep doctrines.
The gospel is NOT a deep doctrine. It's a simple and clear promise about eternal life.
A promise that every person can understand. Many don't care, and many don't even believe in God. But they have no excuse. Rom 1:19-21
FreeGrace2 said:
Show me any verse that says all ubelievers are bound to the devil.
You believe Calvinist talking points. I believe the Bible.
Calvinist talking points cannot be found in the Bible. Or you would have been quoting them.
I just gave you the perfect opportunity to show me what the Bible is saying, and all you do is claim that I don't understand.
You didn't show me ANY verse that says all unbelievers are bound to the devil.
I guess you never got the memo; Paul was writing to believers who have the choice regarding who they present their bodies to.
Or do you hold to the unbiblical doctrine of sinless perfection? That saved people can no longer present themselves as slaves to sin.
Show me any verse that says all ubelievers are bound to the devil.
You believe Calvinist talking points. I believe the Bible.
Calvinist talking points cannot be found in the Bible. Or you would have been quoting them.
I just gave you the perfect opportunity to show me what the Bible is saying, and all you do is claim that I don't understand.
You didn't show me ANY verse that says all unbelievers are bound to the devil.
I guess you never got the memo; Paul was writing to believers who have the choice regarding who they present their bodies to.
Or do you hold to the unbiblical doctrine of sinless perfection? That saved people can no longer present themselves as slaves to sin.
You did. And I explained what that means.
Right. As I also explained.
Can you show a verse that teaches this.
Your comment is but another Calvinist talking point. Which is; God is the cause of people believing in Jesus.
I reject that talking point because the Bible does NOT teach that.
Rather, the Bible teaches that man is accountable for the choice he makes regarding the existence of Creator God and his response to that revelation (Rom 1:19-21), and when given the gospel the choice of whether to believe God or not.
Man cannot be accountable for decisions/choices that he does not make.
Calvinism perverts the sovereignty of God by claiming that God ultimately causes man to believe.
If that were so, those NOT chosen to believe would have a very legitimate excuse for not believing.
Calvinists are quick to claim that those chosen to believe didn't earn or deserve it. So why blame those NOT chosen for their sin and supposedly "fair judgment"?
Remember, the Calvinist doctrine of election is unconditional. If that were true, then salvation cannot be through faith, because faith makes salvation conditional.
I wonder how many Calvinists even understand this.
Right. As I also explained.
Can you show a verse that teaches this.
Your comment is but another Calvinist talking point. Which is; God is the cause of people believing in Jesus.
I reject that talking point because the Bible does NOT teach that.
Rather, the Bible teaches that man is accountable for the choice he makes regarding the existence of Creator God and his response to that revelation (Rom 1:19-21), and when given the gospel the choice of whether to believe God or not.
Man cannot be accountable for decisions/choices that he does not make.
Calvinism perverts the sovereignty of God by claiming that God ultimately causes man to believe.
If that were so, those NOT chosen to believe would have a very legitimate excuse for not believing.
Calvinists are quick to claim that those chosen to believe didn't earn or deserve it. So why blame those NOT chosen for their sin and supposedly "fair judgment"?
Remember, the Calvinist doctrine of election is unconditional. If that were true, then salvation cannot be through faith, because faith makes salvation conditional.
I wonder how many Calvinists even understand this.
You agree that it says "we have been set free" but you don't agree we were in need of being set free? That doesn't work at all. It doesn't say "don't you know anyone who beleives offers themself to obey" it says "anyone who offers". A sinner offers themself to sin so they are a slave to sin.
Look and you'll see Romans 6:20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. The verse before that? 19 I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness.
"Were slaves", "used to", christians stopped offering themself as a slave to sin (hopefully) when they got saved and are not one any longer.
You have to come to Christ to be made alive. If you could do that without Him then you wouldn't need Him in the first place.
Continues...
26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.
The Gospel is Jesus' death and resurection, plus everything he's done for you, how can anything be more spiritual than that?
Also "a promise from God" is inherantly spiritual, just for future referance. Unless you can explain how anything involving God isn't?
Look and you'll see Romans 6:20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. The verse before that? 19 I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness.
"Were slaves", "used to", christians stopped offering themself as a slave to sin (hopefully) when they got saved and are not one any longer.
You have to come to Christ to be made alive. If you could do that without Him then you wouldn't need Him in the first place.
Continues...
26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.
The Gospel is Jesus' death and resurection, plus everything he's done for you, how can anything be more spiritual than that?
Also "a promise from God" is inherantly spiritual, just for future referance. Unless you can explain how anything involving God isn't?