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I would rather be a bit harsh with people who take God's word out of context if it wakes them up to their misdeed than have them face the full anger of God..I have come across all of his supposed contradictions before when I was on another site evangelizing....someone who was refuting what I had to say sent me a link to an atheist site that I think came under biblical contradictions and it listed all of this mans observations in the same order..very coincidental I thought
T
Again, I haven't read all the responses yet; I would like to respond right away, and if this has been said already, please forgive my redundancy.
Yes, Trax and others are being condescending and rude, and less than helpful.
They are correct to a point: knowledge of these discrepancies is not new. What is relatively new (150 years or so) is people trying to "explain away" the discrepancies to make the Bible agree with itself factually.
Astallia, you sound like an intelligent and well-read man. I am going to assume you've read some Shakespeare, or at least you're familiar with the fact that he wrote plays about some historical figures (Henry VI, Richard III, etc.)?
I'm also sure you're aware that those plays were written in a time when there was no audio recording.
Do you think the things Shakespeare wrote are exactly the way it happened?
If not, why is Shakespeare considered such a great writer, if his plays are filled with errors?
Okay, now, I hope you don't think I'm being condescending, because I'm not trying to be condescending to you, although I am being a little ... how shall I say ... dismissive of a prevalent view among some Christians today (I believe it's a minority of Christians, but I've seen different polls that say different things, so I don't know). See, only in the last 150 years has anyone thought that the Bible was written with the intention to be taken as a historical document, rather than as literature. Before the late 1800s, it was just assumed that the stories in the Bible, while many were of course based in actual historical events, were written like Shakespeare's plays -- with a purpose, a plot, a lesson. The writers (and yes, I believe God inspired every book in the Bible, but there were human transcribers who had human ideas and human understandings, including human failings) each had a specific story to tell, and more importantly, a reason to tell that story, to tell it the way they did.
It was never considered heresy to think that the 900-some years that Methusela lived may not have been 900 literal years (365 days each), but some other measure for a numerical / symbolic purpose. Many Hebrew scholars have offered many different possibilities for what that number might mean. I know of no Hebrew Rabbi who argues that it's literal.
So, when you say that you found an "error" in the Bible, that presupposes a false assumption on the Bible that was never intended to begin with. In order for some statement in the Bible to be "wrong," that implies that the person who wrote it intended it to be taken literally. While there are many things in Scripture (especially the Gospels) that are literally true, much of it is (almost all of Genesis is, for example, and huge swaths of the Writings / Ketuvim and Prophets / Nephi'im are) some kind of parable.
An example: at one point, Jesus said, "I am the vine." Another he said "I am the bread of life." In still another, he compares himself to a mother hen. So, which 2 of those 3 statements is Jesus lying and which is the truth? After all, if something is a vine, it is not bread -- bread is not a vegetable. And neither thing is a chicken. All 3 sound dubious, for we believe Jesus was a human.
Again, this sounds condescending, but when someone insists on an old testament passage like some of the ones you quoted to be literally true, it's as ludicrous as taking the above statements from Jesus literally. Of course Jesus was using metaphor. Duh! And since Jesus is God, why wouldn't you expect God to use metaphor when communicating? The reason a lot of people "miss" the symbolic meanings is that they're further removed. See, Jesus was only 2,000 years ago, and Greek is less removed from English than Hebrew is. The Old Testament is 4-6 thousand years ago, and way more removed from English, so a lot of phrases that someone at that time would have immediately recognized as a phrase for a story, we just don't hear them any more.
Like "Once Upon A Time." In English, we know that means we're about to hear a fairy tale. Can you imagine that in some distant culture, 6,000 years from now in some totally foreign language, they may not recognize that phrase, and might think we really believe in talking frogs and dragons?
I hope this helps a little. I'm sorry your pastor is one of those who doesn't get it. I invite you to attend any one of the many mainline protestant churches that understands Scripture as it was written, not insisting on a literal interpretation, but allowing God to speak to us in Truth, however that Truth may reach us. If you want to privately message me your location, I can look up a few churches in your area where your questions will be welcomed, and answered to the best of their ability.
Yes, Trax and others are being condescending and rude, and less than helpful.
They are correct to a point: knowledge of these discrepancies is not new. What is relatively new (150 years or so) is people trying to "explain away" the discrepancies to make the Bible agree with itself factually.
Astallia, you sound like an intelligent and well-read man. I am going to assume you've read some Shakespeare, or at least you're familiar with the fact that he wrote plays about some historical figures (Henry VI, Richard III, etc.)?
I'm also sure you're aware that those plays were written in a time when there was no audio recording.
Do you think the things Shakespeare wrote are exactly the way it happened?
If not, why is Shakespeare considered such a great writer, if his plays are filled with errors?
Okay, now, I hope you don't think I'm being condescending, because I'm not trying to be condescending to you, although I am being a little ... how shall I say ... dismissive of a prevalent view among some Christians today (I believe it's a minority of Christians, but I've seen different polls that say different things, so I don't know). See, only in the last 150 years has anyone thought that the Bible was written with the intention to be taken as a historical document, rather than as literature. Before the late 1800s, it was just assumed that the stories in the Bible, while many were of course based in actual historical events, were written like Shakespeare's plays -- with a purpose, a plot, a lesson. The writers (and yes, I believe God inspired every book in the Bible, but there were human transcribers who had human ideas and human understandings, including human failings) each had a specific story to tell, and more importantly, a reason to tell that story, to tell it the way they did.
It was never considered heresy to think that the 900-some years that Methusela lived may not have been 900 literal years (365 days each), but some other measure for a numerical / symbolic purpose. Many Hebrew scholars have offered many different possibilities for what that number might mean. I know of no Hebrew Rabbi who argues that it's literal.
So, when you say that you found an "error" in the Bible, that presupposes a false assumption on the Bible that was never intended to begin with. In order for some statement in the Bible to be "wrong," that implies that the person who wrote it intended it to be taken literally. While there are many things in Scripture (especially the Gospels) that are literally true, much of it is (almost all of Genesis is, for example, and huge swaths of the Writings / Ketuvim and Prophets / Nephi'im are) some kind of parable.
An example: at one point, Jesus said, "I am the vine." Another he said "I am the bread of life." In still another, he compares himself to a mother hen. So, which 2 of those 3 statements is Jesus lying and which is the truth? After all, if something is a vine, it is not bread -- bread is not a vegetable. And neither thing is a chicken. All 3 sound dubious, for we believe Jesus was a human.
Again, this sounds condescending, but when someone insists on an old testament passage like some of the ones you quoted to be literally true, it's as ludicrous as taking the above statements from Jesus literally. Of course Jesus was using metaphor. Duh! And since Jesus is God, why wouldn't you expect God to use metaphor when communicating? The reason a lot of people "miss" the symbolic meanings is that they're further removed. See, Jesus was only 2,000 years ago, and Greek is less removed from English than Hebrew is. The Old Testament is 4-6 thousand years ago, and way more removed from English, so a lot of phrases that someone at that time would have immediately recognized as a phrase for a story, we just don't hear them any more.
Like "Once Upon A Time." In English, we know that means we're about to hear a fairy tale. Can you imagine that in some distant culture, 6,000 years from now in some totally foreign language, they may not recognize that phrase, and might think we really believe in talking frogs and dragons?
I hope this helps a little. I'm sorry your pastor is one of those who doesn't get it. I invite you to attend any one of the many mainline protestant churches that understands Scripture as it was written, not insisting on a literal interpretation, but allowing God to speak to us in Truth, however that Truth may reach us. If you want to privately message me your location, I can look up a few churches in your area where your questions will be welcomed, and answered to the best of their ability.
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I am glad you pointed out the symbolism of some of the biblical text but really the first five books of the bible or the Torah are the books of law and were to be taken literally so even if we cannot comprehend the vast ages of the humans who existed before us and before God sent a world wide flood that removed the protective canopy from the atmosphere then we are not to deny that these things really did happen...to challenge God's truth that is given to us to be taken literally is to show the same unbelief as atheists do
U
I've read many other of your posts, often quick to judge, criticize and attack. This one is no different. Maybe he is taking things out of context, but if he's seeking answers, still no need to insult or attack him. Its very common for people to take scripture out of context, often because they don't know any better. How are they going to know better if we don't explain it to them calmly, and without criticism? Yelling at someone over their faults doesn't teach them, it only angers them and they learn nothing. So knock the chip off your shoulder, lighten up and give people the benefit of the doubt and a little patience and compassion. Don't think you have the right to cast the first stone.
T
This is not an established fact. Judaism does not teach this, and Christianity did not teach this until the mid-to-late 19th Century. This is your opinion, and the opinion of some Christians. It might even be a majority of Christians in the US who hold this belief. Personally, I don't care if every Christian on the planet holds this belief; that doesn't make it right.
If you want to believe that this is true, that Genesis is supposed to be taken literally, you have the right to believe that. I will support your right to believe it, even though it says some pretty awful things about God. That is your belief, and in the US we do have a freedom of religion, and your kind of Christianity is no more or less protected than mine.
But if Genesis is literal, that means God is a trickster and a liar. And that contradicts with what Jesus taught us about who God is. On the other hand, accepting the more traditional interpretation of Scripture does not create a conflict in paradigm, so that's the one I go with.
Tell you what: as long as you acknowledge my right to believe as I do, I will acknowledge your right to believe as you do. Fair enough?
If you want to believe that this is true, that Genesis is supposed to be taken literally, you have the right to believe that. I will support your right to believe it, even though it says some pretty awful things about God. That is your belief, and in the US we do have a freedom of religion, and your kind of Christianity is no more or less protected than mine.
But if Genesis is literal, that means God is a trickster and a liar. And that contradicts with what Jesus taught us about who God is. On the other hand, accepting the more traditional interpretation of Scripture does not create a conflict in paradigm, so that's the one I go with.
Tell you what: as long as you acknowledge my right to believe as I do, I will acknowledge your right to believe as you do. Fair enough?
A
One of the great joys of my life is seeing a "contradiction" in the Bible... 
Then I study the passage more, I get deeper into Scripture, I look into the original language...
And... a miracle happens: the Holy Spirit shows me that the contradiction isn't there. Not by "Well, God told me it wasn't, so I believe Him", but by resolving it LOGICALLY.
The more I study the Bible, the more amazed I am at it. There are precious mysteries in it revealed to the reader and the diligent. I've come to believe that the Holy Spirit will reveal secrets to you that He has perhaps never revealed to anyone else... These are truly extraordinary moments I have cherished in my heart.
If you give the Holy Spirit a chance, you will not be disappointed....
Then I study the passage more, I get deeper into Scripture, I look into the original language...
And... a miracle happens: the Holy Spirit shows me that the contradiction isn't there. Not by "Well, God told me it wasn't, so I believe Him", but by resolving it LOGICALLY.
The more I study the Bible, the more amazed I am at it. There are precious mysteries in it revealed to the reader and the diligent. I've come to believe that the Holy Spirit will reveal secrets to you that He has perhaps never revealed to anyone else... These are truly extraordinary moments I have cherished in my heart.
If you give the Holy Spirit a chance, you will not be disappointed....
C
One of the great joys of my life is seeing a "contradiction" in the Bible...
Then I study the passage more, I get deeper into Scripture, I look into the original language...
And... a miracle happens: the Holy Spirit shows me that the contradiction isn't there. Not by "Well, God told me it wasn't, so I believe Him", but by resolving it LOGICALLY.
The more I study the Bible, the more amazed I am at it. There are precious mysteries in it revealed to the reader and the diligent. I've come to believe that the Holy Spirit will reveal secrets to you that He has perhaps never revealed to anyone else... These are truly extraordinary moments I have cherished in my heart.
If you give the Holy Spirit a chance, you will not be disappointed....
Then I study the passage more, I get deeper into Scripture, I look into the original language...
And... a miracle happens: the Holy Spirit shows me that the contradiction isn't there. Not by "Well, God told me it wasn't, so I believe Him", but by resolving it LOGICALLY.
The more I study the Bible, the more amazed I am at it. There are precious mysteries in it revealed to the reader and the diligent. I've come to believe that the Holy Spirit will reveal secrets to you that He has perhaps never revealed to anyone else... These are truly extraordinary moments I have cherished in my heart.
If you give the Holy Spirit a chance, you will not be disappointed....
Let us give Acrobat a BIG hug.
Brovo
2 Kings 2:11 "And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."
John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."
Elijah, like Enoch, was taken up, only God is able to will to ascend and descend....... You will have to meditate on the rest of the descrepancies you believe you have found. It is something to do when you are doing nothing else........those rare quite moments.
John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."
Elijah, like Enoch, was taken up, only God is able to will to ascend and descend....... You will have to meditate on the rest of the descrepancies you believe you have found. It is something to do when you are doing nothing else........those rare quite moments.
Astallia God's Word only makes sence if God explains (reveals) it to us!!!! I started reading the Bible from the beginning.... So I got to the book of Job... And when I read Satan was in the company of God, and discussing what he will do to Job I was VERY dissappointed with God that He will allow that evil one in His holy company.... Then I read how Job said.. I ABHORE all I said... and that Job talked a lot of things HE DID NOT UNDERSTAND... that gave me hope... Then I got to 2 Corinthians 6... for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And the answer to BOTH questions....
NONE!!!
So I am now well educated by these Truths, and i know God has NO PART with Satan, except that God has a certain date with Satan, to DEAL WITH HIM FOR THE LAST TIME!!!
There are many things we have to consider.... Even when some say... GOD TOLD ME THIS AND THAT... Like a woman saying God called her to be a minister,, well that is just outside God's charactor... And so is God ordering Abraham to sacrifice Isaak. Is God confused? One moment He says thou shalt not kill, the next He says... God and offer your son... Nope.. the believing part was not Abraham believing God told him to do it... He believed God would STOP him from killing Isaak, and that God will provide a lamb for the offering... And God did.
The angel of God stopped him and a ram was stuck in a thicket... So are there MANY DISCOVERIES... remember the Word is STILL hidden for the world... and once God reveals His Word it makes PERFECT sence. All I ask you is. Continue to trust the Lord to REVEAL the WHOLE TRUTH TO YOU!
NONE!!!
So I am now well educated by these Truths, and i know God has NO PART with Satan, except that God has a certain date with Satan, to DEAL WITH HIM FOR THE LAST TIME!!!
There are many things we have to consider.... Even when some say... GOD TOLD ME THIS AND THAT... Like a woman saying God called her to be a minister,, well that is just outside God's charactor... And so is God ordering Abraham to sacrifice Isaak. Is God confused? One moment He says thou shalt not kill, the next He says... God and offer your son... Nope.. the believing part was not Abraham believing God told him to do it... He believed God would STOP him from killing Isaak, and that God will provide a lamb for the offering... And God did.
The angel of God stopped him and a ram was stuck in a thicket... So are there MANY DISCOVERIES... remember the Word is STILL hidden for the world... and once God reveals His Word it makes PERFECT sence. All I ask you is. Continue to trust the Lord to REVEAL the WHOLE TRUTH TO YOU!
Not everything is meant to taken literal. You can't make the bible walk on all fours. Meaning that when the bible describes God as walking in the cool of day, we shouldn't automatically think that God has legs and feet! When the bible describes Satan as a dragon or a snake, we shouldn't think that Satan is one or can take that form. To not interpret the certain bible passages in the genre they where written in such as poetry, judgment language (apocalyptic), or parable for example, then you are not interpreting these passagse literally because they where never meant to taken literally. By not recognizing the genre and context of particular passage will lead you into all kinds of weird flights of fantasy.
Take "The Late Great Planet Earth" by Hal Lindsey, also author of the "left Behind series", for example. He predicted in this book that Christ's coming and rapture of the saints would happen in 1980s, based on Israel coming on the scene in 1948. That didn't work out, so then he had to revise his interpretation.
Take the Scofield bible for example: Do a study on Scofield life, you might find it interesting.
"The Scofield Reference Bible promoted dispensationalism, the belief that between creation and the final judgment there were seven distinct eras of God's dealing with man and that these eras were a framework for synthesizing the message of the Bible.[6] It was largely through the influence of Scofield's notes that dispensationalism grew in influence among fundamentalist Christians in the United States. Scofield's notes on the Book of Revelation are a major source for the various timetables, judgments, and plagues elaborated by popular religious writers such as Hal Lindsey, Edgar C. Whisenant, and Tim LaHaye;[7] and in part because of the success of the Scofield Reference Bible, twentieth-century American fundamentalists placed greater stress on eschatological speculation. Opponents of biblical fundamentalism have criticized the Scofield Bible for its air of total authority in biblical interpretation, for what they consider its glossing over of biblical contradictions, and for its focus on eschatology.[8] The 1917 Scofield Reference Bible is now in the public domain, continues to be published, and is "consistently the best selling edition" in the United Kingdom and Ireland.[9] In 1967, Oxford University Press published a revision of the Scofield Bible with a slightly modernized KJV text and a muting of some of the tenets of Scofield's theology.[10] The Press continues to issue editions under the title Oxford Scofield Study Bible, and there are translations into French, German, Spanish, and Portuguese. For instance, the French edition published by the Geneva Bible Society is printed with a revised version of the Louis Segond translation that includes additional notes by a Francophone committee." Wikipedia.org - Scofield Reference Bible - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Scofield: The Man Behind The Myth
ANALYZING Cyrus I. Scofield and His Teaching
The main point is this, Interpret the bible in the way the writer intended it to be understood according to it's Genre. Interpret the unclear passages with the clear, and the bible will open up to you. The so called inaccurracies will disappear and all the passages will fit like a glove on your hand.
Take "The Late Great Planet Earth" by Hal Lindsey, also author of the "left Behind series", for example. He predicted in this book that Christ's coming and rapture of the saints would happen in 1980s, based on Israel coming on the scene in 1948. That didn't work out, so then he had to revise his interpretation.
Take the Scofield bible for example: Do a study on Scofield life, you might find it interesting.
"The Scofield Reference Bible promoted dispensationalism, the belief that between creation and the final judgment there were seven distinct eras of God's dealing with man and that these eras were a framework for synthesizing the message of the Bible.[6] It was largely through the influence of Scofield's notes that dispensationalism grew in influence among fundamentalist Christians in the United States. Scofield's notes on the Book of Revelation are a major source for the various timetables, judgments, and plagues elaborated by popular religious writers such as Hal Lindsey, Edgar C. Whisenant, and Tim LaHaye;[7] and in part because of the success of the Scofield Reference Bible, twentieth-century American fundamentalists placed greater stress on eschatological speculation. Opponents of biblical fundamentalism have criticized the Scofield Bible for its air of total authority in biblical interpretation, for what they consider its glossing over of biblical contradictions, and for its focus on eschatology.[8] The 1917 Scofield Reference Bible is now in the public domain, continues to be published, and is "consistently the best selling edition" in the United Kingdom and Ireland.[9] In 1967, Oxford University Press published a revision of the Scofield Bible with a slightly modernized KJV text and a muting of some of the tenets of Scofield's theology.[10] The Press continues to issue editions under the title Oxford Scofield Study Bible, and there are translations into French, German, Spanish, and Portuguese. For instance, the French edition published by the Geneva Bible Society is printed with a revised version of the Louis Segond translation that includes additional notes by a Francophone committee." Wikipedia.org - Scofield Reference Bible - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Scofield: The Man Behind The Myth
ANALYZING Cyrus I. Scofield and His Teaching
The main point is this, Interpret the bible in the way the writer intended it to be understood according to it's Genre. Interpret the unclear passages with the clear, and the bible will open up to you. The so called inaccurracies will disappear and all the passages will fit like a glove on your hand.
A
Of course we cant take every thing literally. Revelation is obviously apocalyptic writing and you have to be careful about what you take literally. However, I believe we should interpret scripture literally unless they text demands other wise or other verses in the Bible suggest other wise like the serpent being satan. People like to think of Genesis and the creation account as being allegorical but I see no good reason for that.
And just because I prefer a literal approach towards the Bible doesn't mean I'm a dispensationalist. I am premillennial but I reject the pretribulation rapture theory and some other things associated with dispensationalism.
And just because I prefer a literal approach towards the Bible doesn't mean I'm a dispensationalist. I am premillennial but I reject the pretribulation rapture theory and some other things associated with dispensationalism.
T