Blog post: Relax, Synergism Cant Hurt Anyone.

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A

Ariel82

Guest
#61
#61
[h=2]Relax, Synergism Cant Hurt Anyone. ...[/h]
neither can syncretism?

<facepalm>

it comes down to the heart: do you work for your wages or do you work motivated by the love of your Father?

Are you a friend or just a servant?

[h=3]John 15:12-16[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends


[SUP]14 [/SUP]You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. [SUP]15 [/SUP]No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. [SUP]16 [/SUP]You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.



What does a gift mean to you?
 
U

unclefester

Guest
#62
#62
tribesman said:
Ironically synergism is to a high extent based on philosophy and unscriptural assumptions of how God has to be and what He has to do. The many problems that this theory meets, for example that not every man without exception hears the gospel, is overlooked and some form of extrabiblical theory (such as various forms of prevenient grace or that all men have the light by natural birth) is given as answer. Christian faith all stands and falls with the doctrine of justification. Synergism in effect denies total depravity and places justification partly on the sinner, not in Christ alone. It conditions salvation on the work of the sinner (at least in the use of his would be "ability" to receive same) and not in the work of Christ alone. That's why no version of synergism understands the gospel.
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This pretty much sums up my rejection of it as well .... particularly this : "how God has to be and what He has to do" ... i.e. ... in order for His ways to make sense to our minds and for Him to be viewed as fair. How complacent would we become if in fact, God did answer every one of our questions to our liking ? Surely then it could be said that "His ways ARE our ways .... and His thoughts ARE our thoughts". But they are not. And it is this that many seem to struggle to reconcile. Yet, faith and trust are synonymous. Neither exists without the other. I'm certain each of us has struggled over the years with many questions we've had regarding God's ways. I know I have. One example for me would be : "Why did God tell Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac" ? This perplexed me for years. Because I knew that God already knew Abraham's heart ... and that his faith was genuine and true. Yet, God put forth this demand anyways. And like Abraham, we too must come to that place in our walk where we are willing ... even and particularly when God's ways seem to make the least sense to us. This is the level of trust that God seeks from all of us. Not for His sake ... but for our own. Because He can be trusted in all things and His love for us so immense, we will never grasp it fully until we meet Him face to face. And if we can all say Amen to the previous line, can't we also trust His love, mercy and judgement to those things that we may not yet fully understand ? Elin made a post a couple of days ago that is worth repeating here. Simply beautiful .... and beautifully simple. But hard for many to accept. Then again, maybe not :)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
For those who believe, it is all resolved in trusting God completely.

Not because we have created him in our own image,
and so we believe he thinks and acts like we do,

not because his purposes are agreeable to our dispositions,

not because his thoughts are our thoughts, and his ways are our ways (Isa 55:8-9),

but because of the trust wrought in us by the Holy Spirit, through faith and obedience,

which gives us to say with Job, "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him." (Job 13:15)
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#63
#63
Abiding said:
Relax, Synergism Can’t Hurt Anyone


Monergism:
Those that believe in monergism believe that before someone is regenerated (born again) they can by no means believe in the Gospel or repent of their sins. And once one is regenerated they can by no means resist believing or repenting. Nothing that men do can bring about regeneration. It is the work of God alone. He doesn’t regenerate someone because they meet any conditions (e.g. repentance, faith) but because of his sovereign choice alone. This doctrine is very closely related to the Reformed doctrine of unconditional election, and even more closely related to the doctrine of irresistible grace. Monergism means that God alone brings about regeneration, and man is completely passive. Man does not actively receive the Gospel until he has already been born again. After that the individual will irresistibly receive the message of truth.
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never heard of such an awful biased definition...you can tell the guy is pulling for synergism just by the way he lays out this paragraph.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#64
#64
Abiding said:

I’m sure theologically minded readers from both camps (monergist and synergist) can find something wrong with my summary of their position.
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well at least he knows it....
Though this would represent the hyper-Calvinist position more than the moderate Calvinist view, we are not talking about what the proponents of monergism believe. We are talking about the way that unsaved people could perceive monergism and be led astray.
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so we aren't talking about what they actually believe, just the misconceptions unsaved people have about what they believe?

ok. i'm going to do laundry now.


 
zone

zone

Senior Member
#65
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#65
1still_waters said:
I think both sides can be guilty of Rob Belling this topic to death.

Rob Belling is when you conjecture what the Bible clearly teaches, with all these leading questions, that lead to implications that the human mind doesn't find palatable.

Then once you have a palate full of unpalatable things, you can spin a nice cushy belief system out of it, that has more to do with what man wants, and less to do with what the Bible clearly states.
Click to expand...



no.....NO!
anything but Rob Belling.
 
zone

zone

Senior Member
#66
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#66
tribesman said:
Monergist about justification and synergist about sanctification? Is that how we are to interpret your post #22? I find it impossible to chop up monergism into parts. Either one is "fully" monergist or one is not monergist at all. If one puts a condition to be fulfilled after regeneration or prior to same, it makes no difference in the end, since it is still a matter of condition to be met in man. Some will say that justification is unconditional while sanctification is conditional, man can loose his gift if not maintained and held onto well enough. It all lands in the same place: conditionalism. And that's what marks out the very definition of synergism: the condition for man's salvation is on man himself. Condition is hereby confused with fruit.
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monergism = God Knows All; Planned All; Accomplishes All He Wills, His Way.
simplez.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#67
#67
Grandpa said:
Repentance and faith are a condition that must be met before God will give a person new life...?
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the only thing is that GOD works in people a godly sorrow that produces in the heart repentance and God gives each person a measure of faith. it is a gift from God, not something self-generated within a person.

sometimes God uses His people or the circumstances of a person's life to produce that godly sorrow that brings them to their knees and makes them realize how empty the world is without the love and light of God revealing to them the hope and the bigger picture.

sometimes blessings come in rain drops and wisdom is learnt through tears.

new life comes with the gift of the Holy Spirit, but before there is a rebirth there is a baptism of tears and the sacrifice of a humble and contrite heart into the death of Christ on the cross, washed in His blood and His perfect sacrifice.

Blessings - Laura Story - LYRICS - YouTube


 
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tribesman

tribesman

Senior Member
#68
Oct 13, 2011
4,612
274
83
#68
zone said:
monergism = God Knows All; Planned All; Accomplishes All He Wills, His Way.
simplez.
Click to expand...
Yep. But the synergist will say: not without my will and efforts! It has to be me in it!
 
tribesman

tribesman

Senior Member
#69
Oct 13, 2011
4,612
274
83
#69
unclefester said:
This pretty much sums up my rejection of it as well .... particularly this : "how God has to be and what He has to do" ... i.e. ... in order for His ways to make sense to our minds and for Him to be viewed as fair. How complacent would we become if in fact, God did answer every one of our questions to our liking ? Surely then it could be said that "His ways ARE our ways .... and His thoughts ARE our thoughts". But they are not. And it is this that many seem to struggle to reconcile. Yet, faith and trust are synonymous. Neither exists without the other. I'm certain each of us has struggled over the years with many questions we've had regarding God's ways. I know I have. One example for me would be : "Why did God tell Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac" ? This perplexed me for years. Because I knew that God already knew Abraham's heart ... and that his faith was genuine and true. Yet, God put forth this demand anyways. And like Abraham, we too must come to that place in our walk where we are willing ... even and particularly when God's ways seem to make the least sense to us. This is the level of trust that God seeks from all of us. Not for His sake ... but for our own. Because He can be trusted in all things and His love for us so immense, we will never grasp it fully until we meet Him face to face. And if we can all say Amen to the previous line, can't we also trust His love, mercy and judgement to those things that we may not yet fully understand ? Elin made a post a couple of days ago that is worth repeating here. Simply beautiful .... and beautifully simple. But hard for many to accept. Then again, maybe not :)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
For those who believe, it is all resolved in trusting God completely.

Not because we have created him in our own image,
and so we believe he thinks and acts like we do,

not because his purposes are agreeable to our dispositions,

not because his thoughts are our thoughts, and his ways are our ways (Isa 55:8-9),

but because of the trust wrought in us by the Holy Spirit, through faith and obedience,

which gives us to say with Job, "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him." (Job 13:15)
Click to expand...
I've never heard a rebuttal of monergism from a synergist which was not founded in philosophy, emotions, non-scriptural reason or selective scripture quoting, carefully avoiding all and every scripture that is not suiting their theory. All boiling down to pre-conceived perceptions about how God has to be and what He has to do. No difference if it comes from a "read as it is written" (and put your own assumption in it) fundieism or more classical arminianism (think "prevenient grace", that they had to make up in order to defend their view). None of it scriptural. It's somewhat like the arians and others who deny the deity of Christ. Much being made out of what some scripture seems to say, carefully avoiding scriptures which go against their idea, filling in the blanks and unanswered q's with their own assumptions. It's like a stronghold that they can't get away from: they have to have something to "claim" and being able to boast about in themselves, should they want to. It has to be conditioned on man, at least to some degree, otherwise it's "unfair" or "unjust".
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#70
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,188
113
#70
Ariel82 said:
the only thing is that GOD works in people a godly sorrow that produces in the heart repentance and God gives each person a measure of faith. it is a gift from God, not something self-generated within a person.

sometimes God uses His people or the circumstances of a person's life to produce that godly sorrow that brings them to their knees and makes them realize how empty the world is without the love and light of God revealing to them the hope and the bigger picture.

sometimes blessings come in rain drops and wisdom is learnt through tears.

new life comes with the gift of the Holy Spirit, but before there is a rebirth there is a baptism of tears and the sacrifice of a humble and contrite heart into the death of Christ on the cross, washed in His blood and His perfect sacrifice.

Blessings - Laura Story - LYRICS - YouTube
Click to expand...
Yes. But would you say it is conditional upon a persons repentance and faith?

I wouldn't. I would say that God leads the believer and the believer follows.

Would that be synergism or monergism?

Each person has their part, but all the work is done by God. I would even go as far to say that God brings the believer to repentance and gives the believer faith. Little by little as he/she reads the bible and prays. All the "conditions" that are required for salvation are provided for by God as the person comes closer to God and God comes closer to the person.

Whatever definition you want to place on that. What the author of psalm 23 is I am also. Synergist, monergist.

Really the more I think of it the more ridiculous I feel. The Lord was on the Cross. The Lord rose again. All I did was read the book that He led me to read. Then I started praying prayers that He led me to pray. He did everything. I didn't even know what I was getting as I was asking for it. He truly is exceedingly abundantly more than I could ask or think.
 
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A

Abiding

Guest
#71
#71
tribesman said:
I've never heard a rebuttal of monergism from a synergist which was not founded in philosophy, emotions, non-scriptural reason or selective scripture quoting, carefully avoiding all and every scripture that is not suiting their theory. All boiling down to pre-conceived perceptions about how God has to be and what He has to do. No difference if it comes from a "read as it is written" (and put your own assumption in it) fundieism or more classical arminianism (think "prevenient grace", that they had to make up in order to defend their view). None of it scriptural. It's somewhat like the arians and others who deny the deity of Christ. Much being made out of what some scripture seems to say, carefully avoiding scriptures which go against their idea, filling in the blanks and unanswered q's with their own assumptions. It's like a stronghold that they can't get away from: they have to have something to "claim" and being able to boast about in themselves, should they want to. It has to be conditioned on man, at least to some degree, otherwise it's "unfair" or "unjust".
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This may all be true. Yet some may just be wrong. And have legit reasons biblically. Even tho they may be wrong.
Without any attitude/emotion of anything dishonest at all. Not even any kind of attitude towards God, or anything
about Him owing us a thing. Or any personal desire to have to put selfcredit or anything mentioned above. Or any other reason at all but what they understood the bible saying.
 
zone

zone

Senior Member
#72
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#72
tribesman said:
I've never heard a rebuttal of monergism from a synergist which was not founded in philosophy, emotions, non-scriptural reason or selective scripture quoting, carefully avoiding all and every scripture that is not suiting their theory. All boiling down to pre-conceived perceptions about how God has to be and what He has to do. No difference if it comes from a "read as it is written" (and put your own assumption in it) fundieism or more classical arminianism (think "prevenient grace", that they had to make up in order to defend their view). None of it scriptural. It's somewhat like the arians and others who deny the deity of Christ. Much being made out of what some scripture seems to say, carefully avoiding scriptures which go against their idea, filling in the blanks and unanswered q's with their own assumptions. It's like a stronghold that they can't get away from: they have to have something to "claim" and being able to boast about in themselves, should they want to. It has to be conditioned on man, at least to some degree, otherwise it's "unfair" or "unjust".
Click to expand...
Romans 9:20
But who are you, a mere man, to talk back to God? Will what is formed say to the one who formed it, "Why did you make me like this?"

dunno how this could be the church, or a commonwealth of persons...without actually being about individual person(s).
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#73
#73
tribesman said:
Monergist about justification and synergist about sanctification? Is that how we are to interpret your post #22? I find it impossible to chop up monergism into parts. Either one is "fully" monergist or one is not monergist at all. If one puts a condition to be fulfilled after regeneration or prior to same, it makes no difference in the end, since it is still a matter of condition to be met in man. Some will say that justification is unconditional while sanctification is conditional, man can loose his gift if not maintained and held onto well enough. It all lands in the same place: conditionalism. And that's what marks out the very definition of synergism: the condition for man's salvation is on man himself. Condition is hereby confused with fruit.
Click to expand...
sanctification is what happens to a person who is already saved...salvation does not depend on the degree or rate of sanctification...

so to say that sanctification is synergistic does not put conditions on salvation...
 
tribesman

tribesman

Senior Member
#74
Oct 13, 2011
4,612
274
83
#74
RachelBibleStudent said:
sanctification is what happens to a person who is already saved...salvation does not depend on the degree or rate of sanctification...

so to say that sanctification is synergistic does not put conditions on salvation...
Click to expand...
Well...synergism per definition means a "part" to be fulfilled in man, being a condition for his right standing with God. Means you're not a synergist then.
 
tribesman

tribesman

Senior Member
#75
Oct 13, 2011
4,612
274
83
#75
zone said:
Romans 9:20
But who are you, a mere man, to talk back to God? Will what is formed say to the one who formed it, "Why did you make me like this?"

dunno how this could be the church, or a commonwealth of persons...without actually being about individual person(s).
Click to expand...
Here's what Spurgeon said one time:

"Esau have I hated." Others, in order to get rid of this ugly text, say, it does not mean Esau and Jacob; it means the nation; it means Jacob's children and Esau's children; it means the children of Israel and Edom. I should like to know where the difference lies. Is the difficulty removed by extending it? Some of the Wesleyan brethren say, that there is a national election; God has chosen one nation and not another. They turn round and tell us it is unjust in God to choose one man and not another. Now, we ask them by everything reasonable, is it not equally unjust of God to choose one nation and leave another? The argument which they imagine overthrows us overthrows them also. There never was a more foolish subterfuge than that of trying to bring out national election. What is the election of a nation but the election of so many units, of so many people? and it is tantamount to the same thing as the particular election of individuals. In thinking, men cannot see clearly that if—which we do not for a moment believe—that if there be any injustice in God choosing one man and not another, how much more must there be injustice in his choosing one nation and not another. No! the difficulty cannot be got rid of thus, but is greatly increased by this foolish wresting of God's Word. Besides, here is the proof that that is not correct; read the verse preceding it. It does not say anything at all about nations, it says, "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger,"—referring to the children, not to the nations. Of course the threatening was afterwards fulfilled in the position of the two nations; Edom was made to serve Israel. But this text means just what it says; it does not mean nations, but it means the persons mentioned. "Jacob,"—that is the man whose name was Jacob—" Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." Take care my dear friends, how any of you meddle with God's Word. I have heard of folks altering passages they did not like. It will not do, you know, you cannot alter them; they are really just the same. Our only power with the Word of God is simply to let it stand as it is, and to endeavour by God's grace to accommodate ourselves to that. We must never try to make the Bible bow to us, in fact we cannot, for the truths of divine revelation are as sure and fast as the throne of God. If a man wants to enjoy a delightful prospect, and a mighty mountain lies in his path, does he commence cutting away at its base, in the vain hope that ultimately it will become a level plain before him? No, on the contrary, he diligently uses it for the accomplishment of his purpose by ascending it, well knowing this to be the only means of obtaining the end in view. So must we do; we cannot bring down the truths of God to our poor finite understandings; the mountain will never fall before us, but we can seek strength to rise higher and higher in our perception of divine things, and in this way only may we hope to obtain the blessing.
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Jacob and Esau
 
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