BORN AGAIN, A CHANGE IN BODY NOT IN MIND

RickShafer · Oct 10, 2012

For every verse you can mince together addressing believers
I can requite you ten addressing the truth of eternal separation.

Read what Jesus said, about the rich man and Lazarus; or any
of His other statements concerning hell.

The doctrine of the just and the unjust is all over both testaments so don't pretend to get smart with me.

It might pay you dividends to read the entirety of the scripture
before making outlandish claims.

I'll let the other believers answer you.

angelofmercy · Oct 10, 2012

RickShafer said:

I've read them. And by those EVERYONE dies! However you take the Lord's parable, it was ABRAHAM who could not bridge the gap. There is One who can!

I thought christians were in the business of saving the world. But when I talk about the world being saved, you with most christians take exception to it? How utterly hypocritical!

RickShafer · Oct 10, 2012

Angel of mercy said - 'I thought christians were in the business of saving the world. But when I talk about the world being saved, you with most christians take exception to it? How utterly hypocritical!'

Your argument is incoherent.

First you say everyone is already saved and then you call anyone who
points out the truth, hypocrites.

Get your premise down first. Before you launch into your argument.

Is Hitler saved? Before, you said he was; now you say he needs evangelizing.

Your argument can't be contended with because you make no logical sense.

But pointing that out makes me a hypocrite.

If you don't even know what you believe; I can't reason with it.

hermanodaniel · Oct 10, 2012

Haven't you notice how Jesus continuously rebuke those who are stuck in a literal understanding in the Gospel of John? When one is BORN AGAIN the scriptures are opened up for the believer to see the Kingdom of God which is in his Word. The deep things of God are revealed and yes a new way of thinking take place as we are equipped with the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2) Jesus in John 6:63 mentioned something very very VERY important. He states that his words are spirit and they give life. Jesus is the Word of God and when we read the written Word the true intents are in the spirit underneath the literal text. The written Word points to the Living Word and back to the written Word over and over nourishing your spiritual man which is now united with Christ. The deep revelation hidden in the Word of God and the understanding thereof IS the Kingdom of God because it is revealing and confirming to you the truth of the Kingdom of God. A truth that can only be born into since we are dead IN sin from birth. Once we are born again we feed off this truth and we rejoice in the love God has for us which is out of time. Those who see the Kingdom of God are LITERALLY overwhelmed of the grace of God the Gospel of Truth.

Here is an example using poetry. It is quite possible to overlook or miss what the poet is trying to convey by simply reading the letter of the poem but if you study the heart of the it you can extract a rich meaning expressed in metaphors. The metaphors are key into understanding what the author of the poem is really trying to express ans so it is the same with the Word of God which is spirit and life.

Mediate · Oct 10, 2012

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God

....................

For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking (these two, eating and drinking were used as metaphors for what doctrine or law we take in), but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

............

For he died for the sins of mankind, no only ours, but the sins of the whole world - John

Jesus said 'It is done'.

..............

It does not mean 'unless you term yourself with the phrase 'born again' you are going to Hell', it means 'unless you are renewed in me (which everyone is), and you see in a new light, you will not SEE the kingdom of God (You will not recognize the perfection, the message, the will of God).

angelofmercy · Oct 10, 2012

RickShafer said:

WHAT!? There is no change with me as my beliefs are simple. All men die, but through Christ, ALL men will live.

My argument CANNOT be contended with because their is no gain or profit in it. In Christ, there is no christan or muslim. No male or female. No black or white. We are one! Again, Hitler is dead. Is He not in Christ?

RickShafer · Oct 10, 2012

'Again, Hitler is dead. Is He not in Christ?'

No.
He is in the place of eternal separation called outer darkness.
It is the only place that the Spirit of God purposefully is absent.
There are........I don't know, maybe 20 references to hell or outer darkness in the gospels by Jesus himself.

You have strained at a gnat and swallowed a camel.
God is more than a force; He is a being.
There is not a force of goodness and a force of evil.
Use all the metaphors you want.
God is a Spirit.......and those that worship Him must have a personal relationship with Him.
He is not a force. He is a being, and we are created beings made in His image.

angelofmercy · Oct 10, 2012

RickShafer said:

Wow! And I don't read the bible? Once again you've opened your mouth...

You said "He is in the place of eternal seperation called outer darkness."

But the bible says ye though I WALK THROUGH THE VALLEY OF THE SHADOW OF DEATH, I shall fear no evil. THIS is outer darkness, where death casts it's shadow!

Eternally seperated? Does a place exist where God's Spirit is absent???

Psalms 139:7-12

7*Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8*If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

9*If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

10*Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

11*If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.

12*Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

Romans 8:33-39

33*Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34*Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

35*Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36*As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37*Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38*For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39*Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

RickShafer · Oct 10, 2012

Again AoM;

You take scripture that is addressing the beloved - (David-Psalms) , and
the elect, - (ecclesia -body of Christ)!
And blatantly misuse them as a standard for your fallen argument.

I mean, the very word 'elect' is in the Romans passage!

What do you think that means?

Who do you suppose that is written for?

Hitler? Is that your argument? That Hitler is the elect?

Or was Hitler the prophet-king who penned most of the psalms?

Or does "any soul insert here" apply????

The scriptures you are using to 'bolster' your argument are clearly
addressing, and for the 'called out ones'!

angelofmercy · Oct 10, 2012

RickShafer said:

These "called out ones" are those that have DIED. Lol.

If YOU are part of the elect and a vessel of mercy, then what does that make Hitler who IS MADE FROM THE SAME LUMP AS YOU?

You may not have done the same things Hitler has done in his life. But the One who said thou shalt not murder from out of the same "mouth" said thou shalt not lie or steal. You may not have murdered anyone, but have you stolen or lied? If so then to God, it's as if you are just like Hitler.

Graybeard · Oct 10, 2012

ozell said:

　
Nicodemus asked a very good question. Take a look at the next set of verses.

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]John 3:4
[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Nicodemus saith unto him, [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]How can a man be born when he is old? [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]
[/FONT]

In verse 5, born of the water in this case is the Word of God.

how did you deduct that "born of water" means born of the Word of God?

Notice the Lord mentions the kingdom of God again, but He adds a little more information.

He says "Except a man be born of water and of the [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Spirit, he cannot [/FONT][/FONT]enter into the kingdom of God.

When he mentions spirit He means exactly that.

Watch how the Lord gives something physical to describe exactly what He means.

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]
[/FONT]

how did you deduct that "born of water" means born of the Word of God and not of water as it is written?, then you say that "and of the Spirit" means exactly that!.....you can't change word meanings to suit your own doctrines.

Katy-follower · Oct 11, 2012

Mediate said:

Yes the door to salvation is open to all mankind but you forget that Jesus' dying on the cross does not automatically make everyone saved, they actually have to have faith alone in what He did, not what we do. We must be born again... born from above... a change of heart, a spiritual transformation, a new birth, which is an act of God where eternal life is imparted to a person. You're not automatically a child of God, you have to become one.

Universalism, the belief that the whole world are saved because of Jesus' death on the cross is not biblical.

Mediate said:

Yes, He was saying "it is finished" - no more need for animal sacrifices which only temporarily made atonement for sins. Jesus was the ONE final and perfect sacrifice and it is through Him we can be saved, no other way. He is the door to salvation. As Hebrews says.... Hebrews 10:11-14: "And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified" (today we still have the same issue - there are religions that teach works are necessary for salvation, things you do yourself. Reality is nothing you do yourself can save you as Jesus did the work and we have to put faith in what He did for us, not what we do for Him. Once saved we are given works of the Holy Spirit)

Mediate said:

Those who adopt the term 'born again' do so to make clear to others that they've had the born again experience, the spiritual transformation. It saves confusion because so many call themselves Christians but not all are. Christian is the most overused title. A person who is saved has had a born again experience where the Holy Spirit enters them and makes them a new creature in Christ. They are no longer the same person. It's a pretty special thing that happens. I will always remember my new birth. My physical birth was 1982 and my spiritual birth was 1993.

You say "everyone is renewed" but this is incorrect. Not all in the world are saved which is why believers spread the good news, to "win souls".... lead them to Christ. The bible says that many will perish because they didn't receive the love of the truth that they might be saved.

marianna · Oct 11, 2012

ozell said:

Hello ozell.
How do we know that in this case born of the water is the Word of God (and not, for example baptismal water)?

Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. - Acts 2:38

'Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.' - Acts 22:16

I mean not to offend, but maybe we could assume for a few minutes that "except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" means just what it says.

As for your idea that the person who has been born again is the one who is "like the wind", no, i think it means God's sovereignty in salvation, and the reference is to The Holy Spirit being like the wind, His work in regeneration, which is the first resurrection...that is what is meant by "like the wind", i believe.

The wind blows where it wants to. You hear its sound, but you don't know where it comes from or where it is going. That's the way it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." - John 3:8

God Bless you,
marianna

Katy-follower · Oct 11, 2012

marianna said:

Actually it is neither. You have to read the whole chapter to understand it in it's context. Often many miss off verse 6 which explains what verse 5 means. (John 3)....

V 5: "unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God"
V 6: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit"

Clearly it is talking about the physical birth (flesh) as well as spiritual birth (spirit) as being completely separate.

The physical birth comes first, but we are not automatically saved, we are spiritually disconnected from God because of sin. We must be born again (spiritual birth-2nd birth) otherwise we will not see Heaven.

marianna · Oct 11, 2012

Katy-follower said:

Hello Katy.
I am sorry, but we do not disagree.
I have read the entire book, and do understand.
One is born physically (flesh), and spiritually by The Spirit.
This is the New Birth (born again), the first resurrection.

I never said the physical birth and regeneration were the same.
I was writing to the person who said the born again man must be a literal spirit (who can pass through walls and so on) was in error. That instead, being born again by The Spirit Who is like the wind - is an expression of His Sovereignty.
You could re-read my post if you like.
God Bless
marianna

Mediate · Oct 11, 2012

Nobody is perfect. Nobody has never sinned. Nobidy can save themselves nomatter what do or they believe. The act of doing or believing is simply an honour to Jesus

Nomatter what we do, nobody is worthy. Again, this is why God looks at the heart.ts of people.

Even saying to Jesus 'look how I was born again. Look how i believed' is inciting that I deserve saving. I deserve saving no more than ajyone else.

Jesus saved us all. We can do nothing to save ourselves.

Believing is an honourment in itself, as are works.

I do both because ive had the revelation that its benificial for myself and those around me to show love. I dont do either 'to be saved'. Jesus already saved me when he died, for not only my sins, but the sins of the whole world.

RickShafer · Oct 13, 2012

Angel and/or Gandhi,
Please explain what Jesus was talking about when He addressed the rich man in hell.
Was He addressing hell as an actual place or a state of mind?
And was the rich man actually dead? And if not , what was that place that he wanted to spare his brothers
from so bad?
(I realize this might take some actual bible reading but if one is going to be well 'versed' in any study; does not
that require a reading and/or understanding of it?

RickShafer · Oct 13, 2012

Angel and Gandhi,
Can I answer for you?
Is it not because the seeking of riches is a 'hellish' mindstate;
and that this 'proverb' or 'story' was just included by Jesus as a bed time fairy tale,
to warn everyone that seeking material gain is bad.
After all, we mustn't take His words too literally.

Is that not your argument? Logically from what you have already written it is.

Abiding · Oct 13, 2012

cant touch this one....too big. amazing!

angelofmercy · Oct 13, 2012

RickShafer said:

I'll get to it in a little while beloved, I'm eating. Lol. I will give you the answer, but will you be humble enough to hear it? Your heart is hardened, but still I must do the work and speak the words He gives me.

BORN AGAIN, A CHANGE IN BODY NOT IN MIND

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