Burning Gay Flags?

[Omni]

Well as long as you are on page that a person after coming to Christ can not continue to live those sinful lifestyles then all is good, but if you believe they can continue to live that way you then are misinformed.

The bible clearly states people that continue to live willful sin lifestyles after coming to the Lord, are trampling the Son of God underfoot and disrespecting His sacrifice by treating His blood as a common thing. Meaning it has no power for remission to them that continue to live such ways.

We are to show love to everybody but in that love comes truth in the Word, and eventually and in times the bible shows that tough love is needed to get one to turn from their wicked (sinful) ways so that they will not be condemned with the world.

Continuing to live willful sinning lifestyles shows evidence the Holy Spirit does not abide in a person !!!

If you're a Christian living in a secular state, and you've made a commitment to God to be a Christian, then that's your commitment. So, as far as your own life goes, you should make a genuine effort to discontinue any sinful behaviors you're aware you're undertaking. That doesn't mean you're going to become a saint the moment you profess to be saved, but you try daily. Sometimes you fail, but you keep trying regardless. The same goes for other Christians: if anybody else (a gay person, a cheater, an alcoholic, a gambler) has made a personal choice to be a Christian, then they should also make a genuine and concerted effort to discontinue any sinful behaviours that they are aware they are undertaking.

However, if any person in a secular state decides that they do not want to be Christian, then that is a personal choice that they have made for themselves, and they are under no obligation to obey the rules of a religion they did not make any commitment to be part of. It would not be fair of you to say to a non-Christian gay person who has no interest in being Christian: "you must obey Christianity's rules and regulations".

If we have two common citizens in a secular state -- a straight Christian and a gay non-Christian -- it is not the place of either to dictate for the other how they must live their own, personal lives. Each of those people live under the promise of personal liberty and individual freedom, so long as each of those people's actions do not cause any violation of rights upon the other person.

So, for instance, in secular countries, people have the freedom of practicing religion, and that freedom extends only insofar as it does not abridge another person's freedom to practice no religion. So, you could open a non-profit church tomorrow, and because of that church's status -- by virtue of its legal standing as regards its separateness from state -- you could refuse gay people entry and you could also refuse gay people a marriage. The reason you're allowed to do this is because you own the religious organization (the church) and that church's very purpose is to further the precedents of the Holy Bible, one of which is the teaching: homosexuality is a sin and marriage is between a man and a woman.

However, the state is not a church, and a judge or lawyer are not pastors or ministers. Therefore, it is not legal for you to be able to command the state to exclude gay people or refuse gay unions, because there is no fundamental secular principle upon which you can justify such a command -- the governmental body is separate from the churches and as such does not base its precedents upon biblical codes, but rather upon the right of all its citizens to be equal in the eyes of the law, and the right of each to utilize autonomy, personal freedom, and individual liberty within the self regulatory boundaries of those rights; functionally, those rights prevent infringement on the rights of others.

It is absolutely legally acceptable for a person to be gay and non-Christian, just as it is absolutely legally acceptable for a person to be straight and Christian.

 

[Gr8grace]

No one jump to conclusions and think I am saying people's sins shouldn't be addressed and overcome. Don't misinterpret what I am saying. The fact is, we have victory over sin in Christ. Sin doesn't dominate us for we are not under law but grace. We have died to sin and are alive unto God. People don't overcome sin through condemnation, but revelation of the victory that is found in Christ.

This is a key point Ben. We are so sin conscious in todays Christianity, that most believers have not a clue about the Christian way of life.

It is pounded in our heads that the Christian way of life is living moral and getting rid of sin. We are not Son conscious, we are sin conscious.

Probably 97% of us here have our lives "cleaned up" fairly well. Decent, moral people and have addressed most overt sins. The Problem? the majority of Christians think that this is the Christian way of life........Cleaning up our act.

For most of us sin is not our problem..............it is the lust of our flesh for approbation of men and God. ANd we do this through the power of our flesh in human good, that is as dung or pads with wings to God.

It is not immoral degeneracy that is the problem for most of us. It is moral degeneracy that is the major problem in todays Christianity.

It rears its ugly head anytime a believer thinks that they can, in anyway, lose salvation..........That is moral degeneracy. It is not a sin problem, it is a human good problem......religion.

 

[BenFTW]

I think we're kind of saying the same thing but coming at it from a different angle. Jesus told people to go and sin no more,so He told people to stop sinning really if you think about it.Now I understand Jesus was sinless. We shouldnt be haughty but humble because grace has saved us. I dont have a problem with a preacher calling sin sin. But again we preach a balanced message.

You'll notice, however, two things. One just came to me, that He said this to people under the Law that called for perfection. Just saying. Two, you'll also notice he said to sin no more after offering them no condemnation. "Neither do I condemn you, go and sin more." The freedom of no condemnation tends to loosen sin's grip, paradoxically as one might think it would produce lawlessness. However it doesn't, it sets people free from guilt and condemnation, therefore taking its power over someone and weakening it. If our sin doesn't condemn us, our focus is taken off of our sin and onto something else. Or should I say someone else? Jesus Christ.

There is therefore now no condemnation for those that are in Jesus Christ, right? This revelation is freeing, it loosens sin's grip on our conscience. No longer is sin our master, controlling our emotions but now we are slaves of righteousness being set free from a guilty conscience. The gift of no condemnation precedes the reduction of sin.

Hebrews 10:1-2New American Standard Bible (NASB)

One Sacrifice of Christ Is Sufficient

10 For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins?

I don't know exactly how it works or why it works, but it does. People tend to break rules as if its a challenge to the flesh but when rules are thrown out the desire, in part, fades. Don't picture a green apple. You just did. You see when you emphasize something, your focus goes to it and stays on it. In the same way, if our sins condemn us we will be ever conscience of them. If they do not condemn us, our focus no longer resides there. We start to focus on that which is pure, holy, and good. Jesus Christ.

I think that is just one aspect of it all (overcoming sin), and how we continue to grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ.

 

[KennethC]

This is a key point Ben. We are so sin conscious in todays Christianity, that most believers have not a clue about the Christian way of life.

It is pounded in our heads that the Christian way of life is living moral and getting rid of sin. We are not Son conscious, we are sin conscious.

Probably 97% of us here have our lives "cleaned up" fairly well. Decent, moral people and have addressed most overt sins. The Problem? the majority of Christians think that this is the Christian way of life........Cleaning up our act.

For most of us sin is not our problem..............it is the lust of our flesh for approbation of men and God. ANd we do this through the power of our flesh in human good, that is as dung or pads with wings to God.

It is not immoral degeneracy that is the problem for most of us. It is moral degeneracy that is the major problem in todays Christianity.

It rears its ugly head anytime a believer thinks that they can, in anyway, lose salvation..........That is moral degeneracy. It is not a sin problem, it is a human good problem......religion.

Well keep denying how Apostle Paul and Apostle James both say that if a person does not continue in the faith they will not be saved !!!

 

[Gr8grace]

Well keep denying how Apostle Paul and Apostle James both say that if a person does not continue in the faith they will not be saved !!!

From the posts that I have read from you................your a perfect example of moral degeneracy.

You don't have a huge sin problem. You have a huge human good (Dung,evil) problem. And it is the major problem for the majority of Christians. Not sin, but trying to be good(EVIL in Gods eyes) enough.

 

[Willie-T]

From the posts that I have read from you................your a perfect example of moral degeneracy.

You don't have a huge sin problem. You have a huge human good (Dung,evil) problem. And it is the major problem for the majority of Christians. Not sin, but trying to be good(EVIL in Gods eyes) enough.

Yeah, but how do you "really" feel about da boy?

 

[Yeraza_Bats]

I read Omni's post, but I never finish them, because he keeps telling us that its their choice to do what they want.

this thread isnt even about that, its about a church putting a symbol on its door, whats happening with it and how we feel about it. There is no talk of legislation at all. Why is that being mentioned?

Would Omni go to an atheist convention that had swastikas painted on its door? Im sure he wouldnt. Im not gonna come to him and tell him its their right, who cares about that? Thats not what the conversation is about.

 

[BenFTW]

Yeah, but how do you "really" feel about da boy?

I guess moral degenerate isn't clear enough. haha That was funny Willie.

 

[Gr8grace]

Yeah, but how do you "really" feel about da boy?

I should of put the disclaimer of: That goes for me too! We all struggle with it on some level.

 

[KennethC]

From the posts that I have read from you................your a perfect example of moral degeneracy.

You don't have a huge sin problem. You have a huge human good (Dung,evil) problem. And it is the major problem for the majority of Christians. Not sin, but trying to be good(EVIL in Gods eyes) enough.

You are the one who threw out there first belittling those who believe as the bible shows that one can depart from the faith in the Lord and not end up with eternal life.

You can deny over 20 scriptures in the NT speaking on departing, falling away, apostasy, and not continuing in the faith but I will continue to believe all of God's written word.

When it shows clearly over and over again that those who walk by the Spirit (fruit of which will be evident) there is no condemnation, but those who continue or return to walking in the flesh are still under bondage and condemnation.

We can not deny the whole written Word of God, and we can not just willy-nilly cast away multiple scriptures that shows the morality/standards/attitudes that true believers will show in our lives.

No place in the bible gives place for believers in the Lord Jesus to be: disrespectful, demeaning, condemning, hateful, and repay a person sin for sin.

We are told we are created to walk in good works and we are also told that we are to encouraged to provoke others to do good works (Hebrews 10:24). There is still a consequence for disobedience !!!

 

[KennethC]

I guess moral degenerate isn't clear enough. haha That was funny Willie.

Funny coming from you since you have said in the past that the moral aspect does not apply to us !!!

 

[ember]

Well is the gospel about stopping sin in our lives or is it about allowing our hearts to be changed by the gospel so that we stop sinning in our lives?

I don't think you can have it both ways. Seems to me one solution is self imposed and self effort and the other is a miraculous conversion by the Holy Spirit that results in a renewed mind through scripture and faithfullness through the Spirit of God from within.

I think people need to be careful and not see things in scripture that are not there

I'm not addressing this to a particular individual...just joining into the conversation...which seems to have left the flag issue behind or just flapping by itself in the wind

 

[KennethC]

Well is the gospel about stopping sin in our lives or is it about allowing our hearts to be changed by the gospel so that we stop sinning in our lives?

I don't think you can have it both ways. Seems to me one solution is self imposed and self effort and the other is a miraculous conversion by the Holy Spirit that results in a renewed mind through scripture and faithfullness through the Spirit of God from within.

I think people need to be careful and not see things in scripture that are not there

I'm not addressing this to a particular individual...just joining into the conversation...which seems to have left the flag issue behind or just flapping by itself in the wind

The thing is that even if we look at it the correct way of our hearts and mind being changed by the gospel that the repentance we then have toward our old sinful lifestyles will result in stopping to walk in those ways and to walk a new by the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

If that change does not occur in a persons life the bible clearly says and shows this is evidence the Holy Spirit is not in a person. Because at no time does the bible say a person can still walk in sinful way that is enmity to God and be saved at the same time.

Being under grace does not mean those sins are now acceptable to continue in !!!

 

[dcontroversal]

Hahah I been gone a week and I still see the workers for salvation whining!

 

[dcontroversal]

Not only did God burn the flags, he also burnt the cities, people, houses, animals, clothing, dishes......heck..he burned it all to the ground...4 of 5 cities and only spared one for the sake of Lot dia Abraham!

 

[BenFTW]

Hahah I been gone a week and I still see the workers for salvation whining!

Three of them have been banned. That's not really something to rejoice in, but hopefully the Lord reveals to them His grace. You know, give them peace and assurance about their salvation and security in Christ. Hebrews is a great read to find this out, to see Jesus as High Priest (Hebrews 7:25).

 

[jsr1221]

You cannot make people feel like a particular sin is acceptable to make people feel welcome. When we go to church we are convicted of sin in our lives, or we should be.How can the Holy Spirit convict anyone with a flag of support hanging from the church? You make the person feel welcome in church,but not their sin. Jesus would not hang out a rainbow flag to attract gays.

How do people know they're sinning if they don't know what sin is? Sometimes the greatest weapon to use is love. Flying a gay flag obviously is wrong. But Jesus does say come as you are. So that includes the gays, and He uses us to try and reach them.

 

[FreeNChrist]

I tend to disagree

Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

Pss 84:11 For the Lord God [is] a sun and shield: the Lord will give grace and glory: no good [thing] will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.

Jer 31:2 Thus saith the Lord, The people [which were] left of the sword found grace in the wilderness; [even] Israel, when I went to cause him to rest.

Gods graciousness in the OT, is not the same thing as new covenant grace. New covenant grace did not exist in the context of the old covenant. John explains that "grace...was realized in Jesus Christ" (John1:17); i.e. grace "came into being," "came to pass," "happened" historically in Jesus Christ.

 

[kaylagrl]

How do people know they're sinning if they don't know what sin is? Sometimes the greatest weapon to use is love. Flying a gay flag obviously is wrong. But Jesus does say come as you are. So that includes the gays, and He uses us to try and reach them.

True but you dont fly a flag to do that. Its sending the wrong message.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Well as long as you are on page that a person after coming to Christ can not continue to live those sinful lifestyles then all is good, but if you believe they can continue to live that way you then are misinformed.

The bible clearly states people that continue to live willful sin lifestyles after coming to the Lord, are trampling the Son of God underfoot and disrespecting His sacrifice by treating His blood as a common thing. Meaning it has no power for remission to them that continue to live such ways.

We are to show love to everybody but in that love comes truth in the Word, and eventually and in times the bible shows that tough love is needed to get one to turn from their wicked (sinful) ways so that they will not be condemned with the world.

Continuing to live willful sinning lifestyles shows evidence the Holy Spirit does not abide in a person !!!

No, those who trample Jesus underfoot are those who reject His grace in favor of law as the means of being made acceptable to God.