Burning Gay Flags?

[Gr8grace]

You are the one who threw out there first belittling those who believe as the bible shows that one can depart from the faith in the Lord and not end up with eternal life.

You can deny over 20 scriptures in the NT speaking on departing, falling away, apostasy, and not continuing in the faith but I will continue to believe all of God's written word.

When it shows clearly over and over again that those who walk by the Spirit (fruit of which will be evident) there is no condemnation, but those who continue or return to walking in the flesh are still under bondage and condemnation.

We can not deny the whole written Word of God, and we can not just willy-nilly cast away multiple scriptures that shows the morality/standards/attitudes that true believers will show in our lives.

No place in the bible gives place for believers in the Lord Jesus to be: disrespectful, demeaning, condemning, hateful, and repay a person sin for sin.

We are told we are created to walk in good works and we are also told that we are to encouraged to provoke others to do good works (Hebrews 10:24). There is still a consequence for disobedience !!!

We need to understand that if we are doing good works to stay saved or to maintain salvation.............they are human good works from the flesh(Evil). They are not DIVINE works.

Under the filling of the Spirit, the Spirit does not produce good works through the believer to maintain salvation. He knows, believes and inspired John 5:24.

There is discipline for the believer. Not condemnation. The problem is that most believers lightly regard the discipline of the Lord.

King Saul is a perfect example of someone who fell away from the faith, departed from the faith and we see divine discipline administered to Him for it. But not condemnation.

The reason we can fall away from the faith and still be saved? Because it is not our faith that saved us, it is the object (Christ)of our faith that saved us. There is absolutely, positively no merit in our faith, the merit is in our Savior.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Well keep denying how Apostle Paul and Apostle James both say that if a person does not continue in the faith they will not be saved !!!

Well advocating for law is to not continue by faith, so......

 

[KennethC]

We need to understand that if we are doing good works to stay saved or to maintain salvation.............they are human good works from the flesh(Evil). They are not DIVINE works.

Under the filling of the Spirit, the Spirit does not produce good works through the believer to maintain salvation. He knows, believes and inspired John 5:24.

There is discipline for the believer. Not condemnation. The problem is that most believers lightly regard the discipline of the Lord.

King Saul is a perfect example of someone who fell away from the faith, departed from the faith and we see divine discipline administered to Him for it. But not condemnation.

The reason we can fall away from the faith and still be saved? Because it is not our faith that saved us, it is the object (Christ)of our faith that saved us. There is absolutely, positively no merit in our faith, the merit is in our Savior.

Again, again, and again !!!

Nobody is saying works save or maintain salvation......................They are the proof of one who is truly saved in the Lord !!!

 

[KennethC]

Again, again, and again !!!

Nobody is saying works save or maintain salvation......................They are the proof of one who is truly saved in the Lord !!!

Also is says only if the repent and RETURN to the Lord will they be saved, it does not say they are saved if they remain in that fallen state. No scripture says a person is still saved in a fallen state !!!

 

[jsr1221]

True but you dont fly a flag to do that. Its sending the wrong message.

Hence the part where I say "Flying a gay flag is obviously wrong." Read the entire post, people. Read the entire post.

 

[Yeraza_Bats]

jsr1221, What is your point, then? I dont think really anyone here is against allowing people living as homosexual to come and hear the Gospel. I think the convo is really just about how putting a flag in support of homosexuality is wrong.

 

[KennethC]

jsr1221, What is your point, then? I dont think really anyone here is against allowing people living as homosexual to come and hear the Gospel. I think the convo is really just about how putting a flag in support of homosexuality is wrong.

Yes it boils down to showing support of the sin and allowing a person to continue to live that way.

All people no matter what sin they are doing are to be told the gospel of Christ to bring them to the truth, from there though after the seed as been planted and others have gathered in to do the watering of showing the truth in His word.

The increase is to be left up to them and God, but if there is no change in that person's life and they continue to do those sinful acts we are instructed to shun them from the church, not allow them to stay and condone the lifestyle !!!

 

[Gr8grace]

Well advocating for law is to not continue by faith, so......

Bingo! Faith +_________ or Christ +_________ is departing from or falling away from true Faith.

This is more of a problem in the Church than overt sinning in the Church.

 

[KennethC]

Bingo! Faith +_________ or Christ +_________ is departing from or falling away from true Faith.

This is more of a problem in the Church than overt sinning in the Church.

The bible clearly gives two examples of falling from or departing from the faith in Christ, and those two are:

1) Seeking justification by trying to obey the written ordinances of the Mosaic laws..........Which is sin !!!

2) Returning to a deliberate sinful lifestyle

Both of these are mentioned in scripture and the fruit of the Spirit shown by Paul, Peter, and John all show that by walking in these will keep a person from stumbling, keep them walking in the Light, and prove they are saved through the Lord unto salvation.

Walking by the flesh means a person is still under bondage and enmity to God !!!

Apostasy means a person who was once walking in the Truth but is now walking in false teachings, and the bible makes it clear one who is in apostasy is not saved !!!

 

[Gr8grace]

Again, again, and again !!!

Nobody is saying works save or maintain salvation......................They are the proof of one who is truly saved in the Lord !!!

Ken, anyone who thinks that His salvation of a man can be lost for any reason.............believes in works salvation. there is no way around it. Sorry.

He died for us as condemned creatures in the first place. To think that He won't do even greater for believers is Blasphemous.

 

[ember]

The thing is that even if we look at it the correct way of our hearts and mind being changed by the gospel that the repentance we then have toward our old sinful lifestyles will result in stopping to walk in those ways and to walk a new by the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

If that change does not occur in a persons life the bible clearly says and shows this is evidence the Holy Spirit is not in a person. Because at no time does the bible say a person can still walk in sinful way that is enmity to God and be saved at the same time.

Being under grace does not mean those sins are now acceptable to continue in !!!

First, this is basically a 'generic' you reference in my response to Ken's post...please try to follow it as such

You are not under grace if I understand you correctly

You appear to be under some self imposed 'tow the line' burden of your own making

"If" really is the biggest little word in the English language as you are using it

There are no 'ifs' in what I said. Not one

Salvation is not conditional upon your efforts to hang onto it by telling yourself I must do this or I must do that

Being under grace does not mean those sins are now acceptable to continue in !!!

That is exactly what it means if people keep denying what myself and many others here have stated. This ridiculous assumption that I have in quotations above is the only thing you have to hang on to. Let it go and we shall all actually come to agreement

God does not create still births...yet, that seems to be what you are declaring. God creates LIVE births. If someone wants to go and dig up their dead body of sin and see if they can somehow punish it enough to make it behave, then they are putting the yoke of the law back on their neck. You don't know where the law ends ... the condemnation of breaking it into infinity is more than anyone could take

As I said, there are no ifs with God. You believe Him or you do not believe Him. You accept His grace or you try to weave it into your own conscientiousness and since your flesh cannot accept the things of the Spirit of God...by your own words and admittance...then you will surely die, for God conscientiousness without eternal being, is the awareness of sin and decay and that is what He has kept us from by sacrificing His only Son on our behalf

Please stop telling us that being under grace does not mean that sins are now acceptable.

That is not even grace. No one here believes that. No one here has said that. It is the only arguement you have and it contains as much truth as a sieve.

 

[KennethC]

Ken, anyone who thinks that His salvation of a man can be lost for any reason.............believes in works salvation. there is no way around it. Sorry.

He died for us as condemned creatures in the first place. To think that He won't do even greater for believers is Blasphemous.

A person is not saved if they are in a fallen (enmity) state, sorry but there is no way around this truth that is clearly shown in the Word of God.

If we believe a person in a fallen state has eternal life, then we would be saying every person is saved then. This however is completely unbiblical !!!

 

[jsr1221]

jsr1221, What is your point, then? I dont think really anyone here is against allowing people living as homosexual to come and hear the Gospel. I think the convo is really just about how putting a flag in support of homosexuality is wrong.

Initial was post of mine was saying flying a flag is wrong, but Jesus welcomes the gays for who they are. I had a person respond back saying g it doesn't change the fact flying the flag is wrong, to which I replied back (as you see) that I already said such thing. Initial point was that the church should welcome gays, because people on here are saying otherwise.

 

[ember]

Righteousness is a gift that comes from the Lord to those who accept what Jesus has done for them by faith (Rom. 5:17-18). The gift of salvation produces a changed heart that, in turn, changes our actions. Actions cannot change our hearts. It’s the heart of man that God looks upon (1 Sam. 16:7), and we must be righteous in our hearts to truly worship God (John 4:24).

Please note the sentences in blue type

That is the distinction

 

[KennethC]

First, this is basically a 'generic' you reference in my response to Ken's post...please try to follow it as such

You are not under grace if I understand you correctly

You appear to be under some self imposed 'tow the line' burden of your own making

"If" really is the biggest little word in the English language as you are using it

There are no 'ifs' in what I said. Not one

Salvation is not conditional upon your efforts to hang onto it by telling yourself I must do this or I must do that



That is exactly what it means if people keep denying what myself and many others here have stated. This ridiculous assumption that I have in quotations above is the only thing you have to hang on to. Let it go and we shall all actually come to agreement

God does not create still births...yet, that seems to be what you are declaring. God creates LIVE births. If someone wants to go and dig up their dead body of sin and see if they can somehow punish it enough to make it behave, then they are putting the yoke of the law back on their neck. You don't know where the law ends ... the condemnation of breaking it into infinity is more than anyone could take

As I said, there are no ifs with God. You believe Him or you do not believe Him. You accept His grace or you try to weave it into your own conscientiousness and since your flesh cannot accept the things of the Spirit of God...by your own words and admittance...then you will surely die, for God conscientiousness without eternal being, is the awareness of sin and decay and that is what He has kept us from by sacrificing His only Son on our behalf

Please stop telling us that being under grace does not mean that sins are now acceptable.

That is not even grace. No one here believes that. No one here has said that. It is the only arguement you have and it contains as much truth as a sieve.

I think you need to read others statements more closely instead of hang false allegations or assumptions toward others like you have done to me.

I do not know where you get the still birth reference from as I have never even brought that up at any time ???

I also would suggest you go and read a number of things the Apostle Paul said, because he constantly used the word "if" in his statements to others.

if you continue in His kindness (grace) else wise you will to be cut off..........Romans 11:22

if you continue in the faith and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel.........Colossians 1:22-23

These are just a couple from Paul that shows continuing in the faith is required to receive salvation, those who fall away or depart from the faith/Truth as 1 Timothy 4 and James 5:12-20 show. They will not be saved !!!

 

[Gr8grace]

The bible clearly gives two examples of falling from or departing from the faith in Christ, and those two are:

1) Seeking justification by trying to obey the written ordinances of the Mosaic laws..........Which is sin !!!

2) Returning to a deliberate sinful lifestyle

Both of these are mentioned in scripture and the fruit of the Spirit shown by Paul, Peter, and John all show that by walking in these will keep a person from stumbling, keep them walking in the Light, and prove they are saved through the Lord unto salvation.

Walking by the flesh means a person is still under bondage and enmity to God !!!

Apostasy means a person who was once walking in the Truth but is now walking in false teachings, and the bible makes it clear one who is in apostasy is not saved !!!

My friend, you have departed from the true faith. You have faith + no deliberate sin or very little deliberate sin(Wide path/very subjective)..........Still saved though, the merit is in the Savior if you ever did have faith alone in Christ.

And #1 is not sin. It is EVIL(human Good), something that Christ did not die for on the Cross and EVIL(Human good/self righteousness) is what is judged in the unbelievers life.


This is why sin is not the big enemy here. Christ paid for sin, He did not pay for evil or the dung of human good.

This is why religion is the #1 enemy to mankind. Religion is human good or self righteousness and Christ did not pay for that evil. Unbelievers are judged according to these self righteous deeds from the flesh. They do not compare to the perfectly righteous deed of Christ on the Cross.

 

[PoetMary]

Righteousness is a gift that comes from the Lord to those who accept what Jesus has done for them by faith (Rom. 5:17-18). The gift of salvation produces a changed heart that, in turn, changes our actions. Actions cannot change our hearts. It’s the heart of man that God looks upon (1 Sam. 16:7), and we must be righteous in our hearts to truly worship God (John 4:24).

Please note the sentences in blue type

That is the distinction

Actually, there have been studies that show that changing our actions CAN indeed change our hearts. If a person is depressed but they engage in certain behaviors of happy people, it can lessen their feelings of depression.

In AA it's called "fake it til you make it." In the early church there was a saying lex orandi, lex credendi which is loosely translated as "the law of praying is the law of believing" or, in other words "praying shapes believing." In other words, you may not actually love your enemy (STATE OF THE HEART), but you're going to pray for your enemy (ACTION) because the bible instructs you to do so. Over time, you realize that by ACTING based on what scriptures say, your HEART has changed and you now love your enemy.

We see this applied, by the way, in all kinds of situations involving negative behaviors (like addiction, for example). Plenty of people quit bad habits NOT because they've had a change of heart, but because they realize it's bad. I want to continue to constantly complain, but I realize that it's alienating people. Inwardly, I feel the same about complaining, but I decide that I'm going to watch my words and stop. Soon, I realize that my heart has changed and I no longer desire to constantly complain.

 

[ember]

6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!

9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!10Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Galatians 1

 

[ember]

Actually, there have been studies that show that changing our actions CAN indeed change our hearts. If a person is depressed but they engage in certain behaviors of happy people, it can lessen their feelings of depression.

In AA it's called "fake it til you make it." In the early church there was a saying lex orandi, lex credendi which is loosely translated as "the law of praying is the law of believing" or, in other words "praying shapes believing." In other words, you may not actually love your enemy (STATE OF THE HEART), but you're going to pray for your enemy (ACTION) because the bible instructs you to do so. Over time, you realize that by ACTING based on what scriptures say, your HEART has changed and you now love your enemy.

We see this applied, by the way, in all kinds of situations involving negative behaviors (like addiction, for example). Plenty of people quit bad habits NOT because they've had a change of heart, but because they realize it's bad. I want to continue to constantly complain, but I realize that it's alienating people. Inwardly, I feel the same about complaining, but I decide that I'm going to watch my words and stop. Soon, I realize that my heart has changed and I no longer desire to constantly complain.

Listen, I can find a study that will tell me it is ok to sleep with another man if my husband is away

These are the world systems and they evolve out of the kingdom of darkness

we are speaking of GOD'S righteousness here, not our efforts

Righteousness is a gift that comes from the Lord to those who accept what Jesus has done for them by faith (Rom. 5:17-18).

 

[maxwel]

Kayla, putting aside the fact that the motivation for putting these flags up is unknown to any of us, and thus that there is a logical issue with asserting that putting the flag up is motivated out of blatant support for the gay lifestyle, I see something else in your post I'd like to focus on for a moment. It is this line "I think the issue with gays in the church is that people do not know if homosexuality may cause a person to be attracted to young boys". The insinuation that being gay causes people to be attracted to young boys is insidious and false, and to anybody who makes it I would ask this question: does being straight cause grown men and women to be attracted to young girls and young boys respectively?

I would suggest that the answer is no, because sexual orientation (being gay, straight, bisexual or asexual) is not primarily a function of a person's level of adherence to biblical morality, it is primarily a function of biology. And if you disagree, I have simple proof of this: If lack of biblical morality (biblical morality being: we should be straight and anti-homosexual) was a precursory cause of pedophilia, we would see a higher proportion of pederasty among atheists than among the religious, but we don't. We see the opposite. You know why? Because religions tend to ascribe shame to sexuality: priests can't marry, sex before marriage is forbidden, self stimulation is taboo, and sexual education is opposed.

It is utterly unfounded therefore to imply, infer, or state, that pederasty is a common result of homosexuality itself, when most of the pederasty in Western societies has been found among priests, vicars, ministers and clergymen (and don't forget those in positions of political or financial power) unless we could logically assert that most of these pedophiles were gay, which we can't. There is also evidence, on this point, of the opposite being true: a sex research study in the US, carried out by Dr. Carol Jenny, centered on 269 children who were victims of molestation and who could idenityf their attacker. Out of those 269 cases, only two of the attacks were homosexual in nature. Another study carried out by Fruend et al, (1989), where test subjects' penis volumes were measured to gauge sexual arousal, found that homosexual males' responded no more frequently to male children, than heterosexual males did to female children.

Sexual orientation, therefore, cannot rightly be taken as evidence of pedophilic tendencies. What are much more likely to make a person a pedophile are a history of childhood sexual abuse, stunted sexual development, and sexual repression, particularly when these attributes are combined in a person who occupies a position of authority.

You can now stop calling homosexuals pedophiles. Let's move on.

Omni,

You are using CLASSIC APOLOGETIC ARGUMENTS from the gay political movement.

You've obviously studied your gay apologetics very thoroughly, so you can fight with Christians.
You've obviously studied, and then come to THIS SITE, just to argue and fight with Christians.
How thoughtful of you.
How thoughtful of you to visit our Christian site to start fights with us.
How kind.
How kind and open minded.
How thoughtful.



Since you're here, day after day, clearly supporting the gay political agenda...

for purposes of full disclosure, so we'll be aware of your own personal bias,
why don't you tell us what kind of relationship you're in?
Are you currently in a gay marriage?