By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Feb 29, 2020
1,564
571
113
Remember what I said about who are the protagonist and antagonist in our minds?
The Bible is the protagonist, the unbeliever and disobedient are the antagonist.

You are an antagonist against scripture.
 
Apr 2, 2020
1,144
424
83
God lists 7 things that he hates; a proud look is at the top of his list.

Psalms 53:2-3; God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Every one of them is gone back; they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

God thinking that you are worth dying for is an entirely different matter. You said that you think you are worth dying for.

Psalms 51:17; The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart.
You seem to be under the impression that value is based on doing good or that it is somehow proud to agree with God. God says I was worth dying for, so I believe I was worth dying for. Not because I am necessarily a "good person" but because God doesn't create junk.

To pretend that there aren't numerous people listed in the Bible as being righteous such as Noah, Lot, Daniel, Samuel, and Elijah to push a narrative that diminishes man and makes God a lover of trash does not honor God, nor does the false humility that is often present when people refer to themselves as "a sinner saved by grace" or "a wretch" or even "the chief of sinners".
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
3,876
1,172
113
But if you believe Paul meant, in those passages, that salvation depends on believers doing works, then you don't think it contradicts what he was saying in Romans 4:5 and Galatians 3:3?

Galatians 3
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

So you think Paul is saying we are saved by faith alone without works, but then we are to stay saved thru our works?

So Paul don't really meant it when he called the Galatians foolish for doing that?
"So you think Paul is saying we are saved by faith alone without works, but then we are to stay saved thru our works?"

The line above is a quote from your post above: A couple of comments on it:

(1) Saying that we are saved by "faith alone without works" is very different than what Paul says - he says we are saved "by grace through faith, not of works"
(a) You said "faith alone" which is different than "faith"
(b) You said "without works" which is different than "not of works"

(2) I think that we stay saved the same way we become saved: by grace through faith, not of works
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
"So you think Paul is saying we are saved by faith alone without works, but then we are to stay saved thru our works?"

The line above is a quote from your post above: A couple of comments on it:

(1) Saying that we are saved by "faith alone without works" is very different than what Paul says - he says we are saved "by grace through faith, not of works"
(a) You said "faith alone" which is different than "faith"
(b) You said "without works" which is different than "not of works"

(2) I think that we stay saved the same way we become saved: by grace through faith, not of works
You should address the other guy, I was asking him a question

And yes I agree with you there

But I am curious though, what do you think is the difference between without works and not of works?
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
10,677
1,163
113
I did. In the post you quoted.
So you don't agree with apostle James don't you?

You think salvation not bear the fruit of Holy Spirit
Grace mean No need fruit or not bear fruit than produce self righteous etc

That is not what bible say

If you abide in Him, you Will bear the fruit

The fruit of Holy Spirit is love, not sin, humble not self righteous
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
3,876
1,172
113
You should address the other guy, I was asking him a question

And yes I agree with you there

But I am curious though, what do you think is the difference between without works and not of works?
"Without works" means that there are no works present.

"Not of works" means that salvation is not caused by works.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
10,677
1,163
113
So you think Paul is saying we are saved by faith alone without works, but then we are to stay saved thru our works?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Is this verse mean save by faith? Or begin by Spirit?

You misunderstood this verse.

You begun with Spirit.

If you live in Spirit, than you not commit adultery, killing, rob the bank

If you live in the flesh, than bad work Will follow.

Live in the Spirit is doing good and loving work.

You think live in the spirit mean salvation by faith.

It is not like what you think.
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
"Without works" means that there are no works present.

"Not of works" means that salvation is not caused by works.
So if I say salvation without works, it means salvation without works present

Am I still saved, according to your view?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,468
1,591
113
They did no such thing AFTER they understood and believed the resurrection.

This is absolutely a requirement for today.
Can you show me where Paul tells us to pick up a cross and follow Jesus to his crucifixion?
This is Just nonsense which sounds real preachy in Church and Gets taught over and over completely out of context .
I AM CRUCIFIED with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2.2
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,468
1,591
113
We were quickened before we were sealed. Being sealed is the earnest (down payment) of our inheritance of eternal life.

Being sealed (God puts his seal of approval) on our inheritance, much like a king putting his seal on his documents of importance. No matter how hard you try to give the natural man the ability to believe in the things of the Spirit, you will never make that thought to be in harmony with the other scriptures.
Yes we were
Every day you must have the whole hearted commitment to die to yourself and surrender to His will, and if need be die before you deny His name under persecution of the unbelievers if it comes to that. And it did for all of the apostles. True Christianity has not changed.

If we examine ourselves and realize we might bow the knee to an image if requested under threat of death today, then we should rush to the prayer closet and not come out until we know that we are ready to die for Christ today if required. This is Christianity 101 and anything less is false doctrine that Jesus rebuked in Rev chapters 2 and 3 to the letters to the 7 churches. Read them afresh and notice the praise for those willing to die before they would deny His name. We are still called to such a faith and less than that is apostasy.. Remember Lots Wife.
' Dying to self 'is not a bible verse found anywhere . However it is found in the new age movement and Hinduism. Again it sounds real preachy in church and is used to guilt trip everyone listening.
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Rom 6
6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,468
1,591
113
why call me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? - Luke 6:46

His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through the knowledge of Him who called us by His owna glory and excellence. 4Through these He has given us His precious and magnificent promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, now that you have escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith virtue; and to virtue, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities and continue to grow in them, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But whoever lacks these traits is nearsighted to the point of blindness, having forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

10Therefore, brothers, strive to make your calling and election sure. For if you practice these things you will never stumble, 11and you will receive a lavish reception into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. - 2 Peter 1:3-10

We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body. 11For we who are alive are always consigned to death for Jesus’ sake, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our mortal body. - 2 Cor 4:10-11

How shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? Heb 2:3 - written to Jewish believers.
A believer can neglect salvation and if so you will not escape (escape what?)

because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification - 2 Thes 2:13
Going through or working out, is the second step in the work of salvation and yes through your faith and your works of faith
The scripture is clear it is part of the process of saving you,


You are saved past tense (from the wrath of God against you for your transgressions has been satisfied and the curse of sin that being spiritual death and separation from God has been reversed in a very dramatic way)
You are being saved present tense (by the working out of your salvation through sanctification, this is all about what you will become, this is also your part in it and in the lives of others)
You will be saved Future tense (when presented as a bride sanctified entirely lacking in nothing no spot or blemish so that you may be preserved complete through sanctification at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ)

If you say you are saved you mean the first part the work of the cross death and new life addressing the consequences of your sin.
If you say you are being saved you mean the second part the work of sanctification addressing the nature/desires/motives of sin in that rule your heart. (the filth on the inside of the cup)
When you say you will be saved (which no one seems to do any more), you are looking with all your hope fixed on His return and being glorified with Him.


Prior to putting you faith in the salvation work of God and the salvation work of Christ Jesus (Spirit included)
you would be working under law.
After you do put your faith in him and receive from God the power to become the children of God.
Then you are working our your salvation in faith through the multiplied grace and peace we now have in the knowledge of God.
'Works of faith ' ? We are not saved by ' works of faith . This is just a work a round to avoid ' works of the law ' .
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,468
1,591
113
Then you reading another book.
In the last days many will fall away from the faith.
Then don't fall away from un faith but from faith.

Once having tasted of the power of the kingdom to come and then fallen away is it impossible to restore such a one to repentance since the crucify the Son of God afresh and bring his to open shame.
They once had repented and believed but now they tasted of the power of Gods things and still fell knowing full well.
There is no longer any ignorance to say forgive them they do not know, no longer any place for faith in what they did not already know.
there fallen state is more like Satan's who knew full well who God was.

OR the Apostle himself saying that he might be disqualified.

for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.” 17 Since you call on a Father who judges each one’s work impartially, live your lives in reverent fear during your temporary stay on earth. 18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life you inherited from your forefathers -1 Peter 1:17-18

No brother OSAS is not biblical, it is just another cushy seat on a Gospel boat somebody other then Jesus built.
What was Paul saying he might be disqualified from ? I realise Mormons and jehovah witnesses believe you have to qualify to earn salvation through good deeds and keeping the commandments .
But in context paul is talking about ' ministry ' not salvation . If Paul was worried about losing salvation then no one can be saved .
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,468
1,591
113
Then you reading another book.
In the last days many will fall away from the faith.
Then don't fall away from un faith but from faith.

Once having tasted of the power of the kingdom to come and then fallen away is it impossible to restore such a one to repentance since the crucify the Son of God afresh and bring his to open shame.
They once had repented and believed but now they tasted of the power of Gods things and still fell knowing full well.
There is no longer any ignorance to say forgive them they do not know, no longer any place for faith in what they did not already know.
there fallen state is more like Satan's who knew full well who God was.

OR the Apostle himself saying that he might be disqualified.

for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.” 17 Since you call on a Father who judges each one’s work impartially, live your lives in reverent fear during your temporary stay on earth. 18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life you inherited from your forefathers -1 Peter 1:17-18

No brother OSAS is not biblical, it is just another cushy seat on a Gospel boat somebody other then Jesus built.
Eternal security is only during the church age with the Giving of the Holy Spirit which now permanently indwells believers until the Adoption ( rom 8.23 ) David prayed 'not to take the Holy Spirit from him ' because he saw it come and go on Saul . And there are many instances where we see this in other places with others in the OT . No one was ' born again ' and sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption ( eph 4.30 ) And no one in the OT was baptised into the body of Christ. During the Tribulation no one have the above things stated either. Eternal security is just for the church age . until the rapture .
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
7,937
1,545
113
What was Paul saying he might be disqualified from ? I realise Mormons and jehovah witnesses believe you have to qualify to earn salvation through good deeds and keeping the commandments .
But in context paul is talking about ' ministry ' not salvation . If Paul was worried about losing salvation then no one can be saved .
Agreed. (y)

[1Cor9 context]
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,468
1,591
113
why call me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? - Luke 6:46

His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through the knowledge of Him who called us by His owna glory and excellence. 4Through these He has given us His precious and magnificent promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, now that you have escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith virtue; and to virtue, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities and continue to grow in them, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But whoever lacks these traits is nearsighted to the point of blindness, having forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

10Therefore, brothers, strive to make your calling and election sure. For if you practice these things you will never stumble, 11and you will receive a lavish reception into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. - 2 Peter 1:3-10

We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body. 11For we who are alive are always consigned to death for Jesus’ sake, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our mortal body. - 2 Cor 4:10-11

How shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? Heb 2:3 - written to Jewish believers.
A believer can neglect salvation and if so you will not escape (escape what?)

because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification - 2 Thes 2:13
Going through or working out, is the second step in the work of salvation and yes through your faith and your works of faith
The scripture is clear it is part of the process of saving you,


You are saved past tense (from the wrath of God against you for your transgressions has been satisfied and the curse of sin that being spiritual death and separation from God has been reversed in a very dramatic way)
You are being saved present tense (by the working out of your salvation through sanctification, this is all about what you will become, this is also your part in it and in the lives of others)
You will be saved Future tense (when presented as a bride sanctified entirely lacking in nothing no spot or blemish so that you may be preserved complete through sanctification at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ)

If you say you are saved you mean the first part the work of the cross death and new life addressing the consequences of your sin.
If you say you are being saved you mean the second part the work of sanctification addressing the nature/desires/motives of sin in that rule your heart. (the filth on the inside of the cup)
When you say you will be saved (which no one seems to do any more), you are looking with all your hope fixed on His return and being glorified with Him.


Prior to putting you faith in the salvation work of God and the salvation work of Christ Jesus (Spirit included)
you would be working under law.
After you do put your faith in him and receive from God the power to become the children of God.
Then you are working our your salvation in faith through the multiplied grace and peace we now have in the knowledge of God.
When we add to our
If you read what Peter wrote to Israel in 1 Peter, none of them are saved at the present time when they believe Jesus is their Messiah.

They are only saved when they endure the fiery trial at the end, 1 Peter 4 says it clearly

12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.


14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.

16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
Thankyou thats a good correction.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,468
1,591
113
They did no such thing AFTER they understood and believed the resurrection.

This is absolutely a requirement for today.
Yes they only understood much much later what was meant by the cross . They were not preaching the death , burial and resurrection until after the death , burial and resurrection. Which is why it is an issue to quote Jesus words to the Disciples out of context.
 
Feb 29, 2020
1,564
571
113
Can you show me where Paul tells us to pick up a cross and follow Jesus to his crucifixion?
Romans 8:17 KJV
[17] And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

1 Peter 4:1-2 KJV
[1] Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; [2] That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

The cross is a picture of suffering.
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
When we add to our
Thankyou thats a good correction.
You appear to be a Mid Acts Dispensationalist in your doctrine.

I think the best part about being a Mid Acts is that you can really enjoy reading Hebrews, James, 1 and 2 Peter, 1-3 John without being worried about verses in those books that indicate that salvation is not for us to have now, but something that we can only expect in the future, after we do the works.