Calvinism and Context?

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posthuman

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Why did they choose the ways of their fathers who killed the prophets? They did not like the message of redemption because they would by necessity need to confess their need to be redeemed. Not unlike many today who will not admit their need to be saved because they value their own righteousness equal to that of Christ.
It's nice you have an opinion about why, and it is a well-rehearsed and often taught one. but more useful is what does Jesus say about why?
He quotes the word given to Isaiah, that they were blinded by God, lest they turn and He would heal them. Paul says the same thing, explaining that this was God's will in order that His purpose in election might be fulfilled, and He might save not only a remnant from Israel but from the whole world, the Gentiles being brought in in order to provoke the Jews to jealousy.

In the scripture God's sovereign will bring carried out in individuals and in nations exists simultaneously with man's free and culpable agency - IMO we're stupid to interject out own human thinking and say it must be one only and not the other. This is a marvelous thing that God does, that man cannot do, and we ought to wonder over it instead of bickering about it as though His ways are down here in the level of ours and we comprehend them.

He put eternity in our hearts, but hidden, so that we could not know it.
 

cv5

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There is a blindness that comes to those who hold these false tenets for sure....

.....and sadly not only is it near impossible for them to return to the true Gospel they indoctrinate many more along the way.
I for one I'm still waiting to hear exactly what the "true gospel" is as you define it.
I was trying to extract the same info out of Brbdrd, and it was like pulling teeth.
 

EleventhHour

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I for one I'm still waiting to hear exactly what the "true gospel" is as you define it.
I was trying to extract the same info out of Brbdrd, and it was like pulling teeth.
We repent, (change our mind) about our "dead works" towards Christ and believe upon, accept His Work and gift of righteousness...... that is the Gospel
 

cv5

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That is all of us until we receive Christ. Why conflate this into some sort of predestination? Jesus was speaking to the elect among the nations. Jesus came to His own, the nation of Israel and they rejected Him. Note they made a choice to reject Christ.

Why did they choose the ways of their fathers who killed the prophets? They did not like the message of redemption because they would by necessity need to confess their need to be redeemed. Not unlike many today who will not admit their need to be saved because they value their own righteousness equal to that of Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Is anyone here brave enough to proclaim that Judas Iscariot was ever truly capable of repentance and salvation?

Bearing in mind of course the prophecies written about him were written before he was ever born!
 

cv5

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We repent, (change our mind) about our "dead works" towards Christ and believe upon, accept His Work and gift of righteousness...... that is the Gospel
Except for Judas who was predestined for condemnation?
 

cv5

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Acts 1:16-18Brothers, the scripture had to be fulfilled that the Holy Spirit foretold through David concerning Judas—who became the guide for those who arrested Jesus for he was counted as one of us and received a share in this ministry.” (Now this man Judas acquired a field with the reward of his unjust deed, and falling headfirst he burst open in the middle and all his intestines gushed out.

John 17:11-12 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

Matthew 26:24-25 For I must die just as was prophesied, but woe to the man by whom I am betrayed. Far better for that one if he had never been born.” Judas, too, had asked him, “Rabbi, am I the one?” And Jesus had told him, “Yes.”
 

EleventhHour

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Acts 1:16-18Brothers, the scripture had to be fulfilled that the Holy Spirit foretold through David concerning Judas—who became the guide for those who arrested Jesus for he was counted as one of us and received a share in this ministry.” (Now this man Judas acquired a field with the reward of his unjust deed, and falling headfirst he burst open in the middle and all his intestines gushed out.

John 17:11-12 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

Matthew 26:24-25 For I must die just as was prophesied, but woe to the man by whom I am betrayed. Far better for that one if he had never been born.” Judas, too, had asked him, “Rabbi, am I the one?” And Jesus had told him, “Yes.”
And does it state God doomed him to destruction.... Judas made choices and doomed himself.

Do you see how you "read in" your presuppositions?
 

cv5

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And does it state God doomed him to destruction.... Judas made choices and doomed himself.

Do you see how you "read in" your presuppositions?
Did Jeremiah likewise "make choices" that led to him, in and of himself by himself, to the office of Gods prophet and of course his salvation? Was Jeremiah simply the beneficiary of an immeasurable multitude of random incidences and his own express will whereby he should fulfill his life's mandate as the prophet of God at a critical moment in the history of Israel? And God had no hand in this whatsoever and was simply an observer who saw Jeremiah in eternity past and simply wrote about what would eventually happen?

I say such a line of thinking is unscriptural and patently absurd.

Jeremiah 1:5
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I set you apart and appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”
 

posthuman

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And does it state God doomed him to destruction.... Judas made choices and doomed himself.

Do you see how you "read in" your presuppositions?
Does it say Judas doomed himself?
Maybe both of you are reading into this your own presuppositions.

The Greek in John 17:12 is literally 'son of destruction' - the word doomed or destined isn't there.

What's interesting to me is that Jesus chose Judas. Jesus knew exactly what Judas would do, from the beginning, even from before the beginning - and Jesus chose him anyway. He could have just as easily not put him in that position to keep him from doing what he did, but He did not; He put him in exactly the position where he would carry out what the scripture had said he would do.
So here is Judas's will and Judas's destiny hand in hand, appointed by God and also appearing for all intents and purposes to act of his own accord.

Will someone dare to blame God for knowingly putting Judas in that position? Is that any different than blaming God for determining what Judas would do? Whichever is the case, I don't dare accuse God as though I could judge Him. I have to just accept what He does and marvel at it.
 

cv5

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Does it say Judas doomed himself?
Maybe both of you are reading into this your own presuppositions.

The Greek in John 17:12 is literally 'son of destruction' - the word doomed or destined isn't there.

What's interesting to me is that Jesus chose Judas. Jesus knew exactly what Judas would do, from the beginning, even from before the beginning - and Jesus chose him anyway. He could have just as easily not put him in that position to keep him from doing what he did, but He did not; He put him in exactly the position where he would carry out what the scripture had said he would do.
So here is Judas's will and Judas's destiny hand in hand, appointed by God and also appearing for all intents and purposes to act of his own accord.

Will someone dare to blame God for knowingly putting Judas in that position? Is that any different than blaming God for determining what Judas would do? Whichever is the case, I don't dare accuse God as though I could judge Him. I have to just accept what He does and marvel at it.
I think you are missing the point, that being Judas was prophesied from eternity past to do what he did.

To say otherwise would violate the very principles and the definition of prophecy.

As far as Christ Himself is concerned, is God simply observing the future, then writing it down and subsequently specifying and defining these observtions as prophecy? Hardly.

Acts 2
“Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. For David says concerning Him:
 

EleventhHour

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Does it say Judas doomed himself?
Maybe both of you are reading into this your own presuppositions.

The Greek in John 17:12 is literally 'son of destruction' - the word doomed or destined isn't there.

What's interesting to me is that Jesus chose Judas. Jesus knew exactly what Judas would do, from the beginning, even from before the beginning - and Jesus chose him anyway. He could have just as easily not put him in that position to keep him from doing what he did, but He did not; He put him in exactly the position where he would carry out what the scripture had said he would do.
So here is Judas's will and Judas's destiny hand in hand, appointed by God and also appearing for all intents and purposes to act of his own accord.

Will someone dare to blame God for knowingly putting Judas in that position? Is that any different than blaming God for determining what Judas would do? Whichever is the case, I don't dare accuse God as though I could judge Him. I have to just accept what He does and marvel at it.

Can we show from scripture that Judas did not make choices?
"Son of destruction" again is very expressive way of meaning "author of his own demise."

God's foreknowledge is not always causation.
And while yes God directly causes many things, I will not agree that He creates a portion of humanity solely for destruction with no choice/ability to believe.
 

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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As far as Christ Himself is concerned, is God simply observing the future, then writing it down and subsequently specifying and defining these observtions as prophecy? Hardly.
I agree - Isaiah 46 for another example makes it very clear that He foretells and carries out His will Himself.
 

posthuman

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"Son of destruction" again is very expressive way of meaning "author of his own demise."
Now if that's not reading your own presuppositions into something, I don't know what is!

Not that it's necessarily wrong to do so - at certain points we have to, because it is all we can do to interpret cryptic sayings.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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Does it say Judas doomed himself?
Maybe both of you are reading into this your own presuppositions.

The Greek in John 17:12 is literally 'son of destruction' - the word doomed or destined isn't there.

What's interesting to me is that Jesus chose Judas. Jesus knew exactly what Judas would do, from the beginning, even from before the beginning - and Jesus chose him anyway. He could have just as easily not put him in that position to keep him from doing what he did, but He did not; He put him in exactly the position where he would carry out what the scripture had said he would do.
So here is Judas's will and Judas's destiny hand in hand, appointed by God and also appearing for all intents and purposes to act of his own accord.

Will someone dare to blame God for knowingly putting Judas in that position? Is that any different than blaming God for determining what Judas would do? Whichever is the case, I don't dare accuse God as though I could judge Him. I have to just accept what He does and marvel at it.
The term "son of destruction" carries with it the thought of someone being born unto eternal ruin. The same term is used for the antichrist.

Questions:
Is there any possibility that the antichrist will ever or could ever be saved?
Are there any prophecies that point to the eventual fate of the Antichrist?
In what ways are Judas in the antichrist similar?
 

posthuman

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Can we show from scripture that Judas did not make choices?
Why would we want to?

I don't know if it's been clear, but I believe both in God's own predetermination and in the free will He gives us. I just don't think our own will can overcome His, if they were to struggle against each other.
 

EleventhHour

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Now if that's not reading your own presuppositions into something, I don't know what is!

Not that it's necessarily wrong to do so - at certain points we have to, because it is all we can do to interpret cryptic sayings.

Hahaha I thought I would give it a try... certainly at some point God hardened and used to him, however during that time with Jesus I am sure Judas was making choices.
 

EleventhHour

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Why would we want to?

I don't know if it's been clear, but I believe both in God's own predetermination and in the free will He gives us. I just don't think our own will can overcome His, if they were to struggle against each other.
Well I think the context has to be contained to salvation, because certainly as you branch out to other aspects of life it becomes more speculative.

When it comes to salvation no one is denied... and God is desiring that all come to repentance... but certainly people reach a point where God leaves them to their own delusions or sends them a strong delusion where they cannot believe like the Jews in the time of Jesus except for the remnant.
 

EleventhHour

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The term "son of destruction" carries with it the thought of someone being born unto eternal ruin.
This still does not necessitate that God created a robot... but that by his own choices he went to eternal ruin.
 
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