Calvinism and Context?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
2,107
763
113
it's in the fulfillment of prophecy that He is proven, not in the giving of it - because many false prophets go out; they are proven false when what they say doesn't come to pass.

prophecy proves God's sovereignty, as He Himself explains:

Remember the former things of old, for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning,
and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying,
‘My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure,’
calling a bird of prey from the east, the man who executes My counsel, from a far country.
Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it; I will also do it.
(Isaiah 46:9-11)
He calls a man, a bird of prey, who executes His counsel. He says, He speaks it & He brings it to pass -- He purposes it and He does it; this proves He is God and no other is; He does all His will.
what do these facts say about the supposed '
sovereign free agency' of the man He calls to fulfill His purpose?
isn't that humanity's major beef with these things? the complaint that God is '
playing puppet with people' and 'that's not fair, God should respect people's free will' ? what does this mean here in Isaiah?? is that God saying He does this and that it's proof He, and He alone is God?


if it's not, what is He saying?

can human will change what is prophesied? or *must* it come to pass as He declares it?
is He not saying He is the very one who brings it to pass? IMO the very existence of prophecy throws human notions of free agency for quite the loop; it's not so free as it's made out to be: ask the bird of prey from the far country about compulsion & destiny. or maybe from his point of view, he does it of his own accord without any divine '
interference' as it may be described??
You're proving your own belief is wrong. You're saying nobody can believe in God unless God opens his eyes and then saying fulfilled prophecy proves he is God. God fulfilled prophecy so we would believe in him,

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye mighthave life through his name. Jn.20:31

And we live by faith in what God says will happen in the future because he doesn't lie like the false prophets.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,925
13,607
113
It means if people hate Jesus, it's because they hate God, because Jesus is God in the flesh. This is why Jesus said anyone who has heard and learned of the Father (from the scriptures) comes to me. No one can come to Jesus unless thay are "drawn" (attracted) by the Father. Not everyone hated Jesus. Even many of the religious leaders believed in him because of what he was saying and doing.
you're not addressing what God says and what the fact of prophecy, & what God says of prophecy, implies about why the Son "must" suffer and be hated by the world, which is what you said i was misrepresenting.
there's no question that people hate Christ because they hate God - i mean i'm the one quoting God saying exactly that??
but what does it mean that Christ Himself says He must be rejected? if the world must reject & crucify Him because they hate God, why must the world hate God and therefore also His Son which He sent?

how does God know that and declare it thousands of years before it happens; couldn't every man and woman and child freely choose to love God rather than hate Him, see the kingdom & believe Him, & in so doing undone God's word through the prophets that they wouldn't do any of these things?

why does Jesus bring up all this talk of being of the world or not of the world in this context of John 15, saying He "chose" some out of the world? is this the same question as why can't anyone come to Him unless the Father draws them? who did He choose? did He choose people who were in & of the world and make then not of it anymore, or did He choose people who were never of the world in the first place?
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
2,107
763
113
you're not addressing what God says and what the fact of prophecy, & what God says of prophecy, implies about why the Son "must" suffer and be hated by the world, which is what you said i was misrepresenting.
there's no question that people hate Christ because they hate God - i mean i'm the one quoting God saying exactly that??
but what does it mean that Christ Himself says He must be rejected? if the world must reject & crucify Him because they hate God, why must the world hate God and therefore also His Son which He sent?


how does God know that and declare it thousands of years before it happens; couldn't every man and woman and child freely choose to love God rather than hate Him, see the kingdom & believe Him, & in so doing undone God's word through the prophets that they wouldn't do any of these things?

why does Jesus bring up all this talk of being of the world or not of the world in this context of John 15, saying He "chose" some out of the world? is this the same question as why can't anyone come to Him unless the Father draws them? who did He choose? did He choose people who were in & of the world and make then not of it anymore, or did He choose people who were never of the world in the first place?
Jesus came so that people would consider what they were doing against God. For Gods sake, look at your own life. Before you came to faith in Jesus, didnt you ever do anything you knew was wrong and was sorry for? Didnt you ever tell anyone you were sorry? Just because youre a sinner doesnt mean God removed every godly influence from your life.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
The teachings of Calvin, like any teaching, has a result. What is the result of a Christian embracing Calvin? And if it produces a problem, how serious is it in comparison to what is true?
Its up to you to get results.

Not your teachers.
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
2,107
763
113
The blind man that was healed, "And he said, Lord, I believe."

Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God. Mt.27:54

The eunich reading the scriptures, And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Acts 8:37

it's obvious none the people described here believed before they received the Holy Spirit. I know we're not completely stupid.
 
Jun 11, 2020
1,370
424
83
73
If you cannot read thru these threads that promote that heretical farce and see the issues and problems that it causes, then you are neither looking at it objectively or are oblivious!.

Divide and conquer!!!!
Having read through the threads, as you propose, what do yo think of all my postings on the subject? Have I been a proponent of Calvin, or have I pointedly said that he made mistakes. The OP simply accused Calvin concerning 2nd Thessalonians 2:13. In my posting #32, (which you have admitted reading), I answered this. Do my postings on Calvin, in this thread, or in the other current one " Maybe its real and im just not Chosen " really show me not looking at the problem? If not, why the judgment?
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
The teachings of Calvin, like any teaching, has a result. What is the result of a Christian embracing Calvin? And if it produces a problem, how serious is it in comparison to what is true?
Very serious. ... it will influence most peoples's concept of God and the relationship they have with God.
People who come out of Calvinism almost need to be deprogrammed like any other cult.

God does not like lies being told about Him.
 
Jun 11, 2020
1,370
424
83
73
Very serious. ... it will influence most peoples's concept of God and the relationship they have with God.
People who come out of Calvinism almost need to be deprogrammed like any other cult.

God does not like lies being told about Him.
Amen! I think that the "deprogramming" can also be sitting under the right teaching for a short while.

John 8:32 promises, "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
Amen! I think that the "deprogramming" can also be sitting under the right teaching for a short while.

John 8:32 promises, "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
One would hope... although not on this message board, not only are people supportive, some have been persuaded and most are sympathetic to its false teachings except for maybe three or four.

Whether Calvinism lite or all the five tenets it is ubiquitous.
 
Apr 2, 2020
1,144
425
83
traditionally the answer to the classic question 'if He can save everyone through grace and His will is that all are saved, why doesn't He?' is His justice: He is holy, and it is His glory to not let wickedness go unpunished; He is merciful, and it is His glory to overlook offense.

loving righteousness and judgment,
of the kindness of Jehovah is the earth full
(Psalm 33:5 ylt)
This is precisely why I say it must be conditional if there is election going on. There is no justice if the same sin is punished differently so if His justice does not demand punishment of given sins, there is no need for punishment for those sins. And is it not written the merciful receive mercy? Yet some would have us that God treats some according to their sin and others according to mercy for no reason and call it justice.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
Put the passage into context. Lets not chop out part of the verse to form a pretext which is not consistent with the whole counsel of God.

Titus 2:11 ¶ For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15 ¶ These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

The grace of God hath appeared to all men. The grace of God bringeth salvation not the will of man. God saves no man against mans own will. Mans will must be submitted to Gods will in the matter of salvation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
If God eternally saves no man against man's own will, how do you interpret Eph 2:1 & 5?

If God eternally saves no man against man's own will, how do you interpret Dan 4:35?

Surly you don't think that the scriptures contradict each other.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
Ok now this verse. same approach?
, Philippians 1:29
King James Version
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
If God eternally saves no man against man's own will, how do you interpret Eph 2:1 & 5?

If God eternally saves no man against man's own will, how do you interpret Dan 4:35?

Surly you don't think that the scriptures contradict each other.
What is obvious is that you do not understand those verses. God does not save a man against the will of that man. If you do not know these evident truths I cannot fathom how you can claim to be saved.

John 3:18-20

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
What is obvious is that you do not understand those verses. God does not save a man against the will of that man. If you do not know these evident truths I cannot fathom how you can claim to be saved.

John 3:18-20

For the cause of Christ
Roger
You did not give me your interpretation of Dan 4:35, nor of Eph 2:1 & 5.

Jesus is talking to Nicodemus, who is a master of Israel, which is Jacob/Israel. Our old nature, that we still carry with us after regeneration, is to love darkness, and hate light. Paul explains this, by the warfare that goes on inside of us.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
What is obvious is that you do not understand those verses. God does not save a man against the will of that man. If you do not know these evident truths I cannot fathom how you can claim to be saved.

John 3:18-20

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I would think he gives mankind a new will the mind of Christ. . the food the disciples knew not of. . the will of his unseen father.

Some go wiling other he pulls a little harder on the reigns causing them to turn . Jonas a murmurer was shoved .Kicking against the pricks . He wanted to die as the Holy Spirit worked in him to both will and do the good pleasure . Jesus our example did it with delight.

Jonah 4:1-4 King James Version (KJV But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he was very angry. And he prayed unto the Lord, and said, I pray thee, O Lord, was not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil. Therefore now, O Lord, take, I beseech thee, my life from me; for it is better for me to die than to live. Then said the Lord, Doest thou well to be angry?

Man's anger does not bring about the righteous life he desires .It blinds of new minds and hearts. Like in man overboard walk the plank .
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
I'm well aware of that, and I didn't mean to imply that one was chosen over another. More that some He seems to go to much greater lengths to persuade than others. God was very persistent with me in such a way that I simply cannot deny that I was chosen to believe. It seems to me God could give the proof that men demand if He so chose yet He only provides it to some and not others. Some live very hard lives that would make it so easy to not believe in a good God. No one chooses the circumstances of their own lives, and no one makes choices in a vacuum. The knowledge God has of each individual means He could shape their lives so they couldn't possibly deny Him without doing violence to their will.
I think the great lengths God went to was the cross . The death ,burial and resurrection. And the Giving of the Holy Spirit. And the Gospel . Creation , Conscience And the bible . Universally this is equally available to all .
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
ROM. 8:33.
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifies.

this Truth is evident by ALL of the Scriptures that use the term 'elect' -
we say to search the scriptures for the whole council of God'...
(OUR OPINION DOESN'T COUNT)...
Elected for what?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
I would think he gives mankind a new will the mind of Christ. . the food the disciples knew not of. . the will of his unseen father.

Some go wiling other he pulls a little harder on the reigns causing them to turn . Jonas a murmurer was shoved .Kicking against the pricks . He wanted to die as the Holy Spirit worked in him to both will and do the good pleasure . Jesus our example did it with delight.

Jonah 4:1-4 King James Version (KJV But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he was very angry. And he prayed unto the Lord, and said, I pray thee, O Lord, was not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil. Therefore now, O Lord, take, I beseech thee, my life from me; for it is better for me to die than to live. Then said the Lord, Doest thou well to be angry?

Man's anger does not bring about the righteous life he desires .It blinds of new minds and hearts. Like in man overboard walk the plank .
The sign of Jonah was the death ,burial and resurrection. But what happened to him happened to him .
 
Status
Not open for further replies.