Calvinism and Context?
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In view of the subject, don't fail to also consider the word in Eph1:12, "G4276 - proēlpikotas / proelpizó - [we who] fore-hoped, before hoped [in Christ]"... surely we should not take this as their meaning, "before we even existed[/before-the-Genesis-1-creation]". LOL
[I agree with those saying (along the lines of) that it was His plan to have an entity called "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" at this time and place in history (Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence])--see also Eph1:4 "chosen IN HIM *before [pro - G4253] the foundation of the world" (that is the position--"IN HIM")]
[I agree with those saying (along the lines of) that it was His plan to have an entity called "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" at this time and place in history (Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence])--see also Eph1:4 "chosen IN HIM *before [pro - G4253] the foundation of the world" (that is the position--"IN HIM")]
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if that's really the case -- if the reasoning is because of what scripture says, not because of what human logic demands -- then why is it that every time the words "predestined" or "elect" or "chosen" are mentioned in scripture, the clear grammatical structure is referring to persons, not to 'a method' ?
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This is false, but it's also built on a faulty premise. The word translated "predestined" only occurs a handful of times so to make a rule based on those few occasions is not well founded, especially building an entire system on that rule.
But if we look to other appearances we see it is used of situations in Acts 4:28, 1 cor. 2:7 and seems to directly be referring to the method of adoption in Ephesians 1:5.
Even in Romans 8 it could arguably be the method that is in mind with foreknowledge being the principle bridge between individuals and what follows. It and Ephesians 1:11 are the only places where it conceivably refers directly to people and in both cases there's ambiguity as to whether it is a direct selection or if it's speaking of adoption into Christ as what's in mind.
But if we look to other appearances we see it is used of situations in Acts 4:28, 1 cor. 2:7 and seems to directly be referring to the method of adoption in Ephesians 1:5.
Even in Romans 8 it could arguably be the method that is in mind with foreknowledge being the principle bridge between individuals and what follows. It and Ephesians 1:11 are the only places where it conceivably refers directly to people and in both cases there's ambiguity as to whether it is a direct selection or if it's speaking of adoption into Christ as what's in mind.
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they did was was predetermined
they speak to the mature the 'wisdom from God' ordained before the ages -- which is Christ, a person
"chosen" is in the KJV 119 times
"predestined" is in the NT 5 times
"elect" is in the NT 19 times ((oddly enough never referring to democracy?))
143 isn't 'a handful' of times. you found 2 that are merely indirectly instead of directly with reference to people. congratulations. 2 < 141.
they speak to the mature the 'wisdom from God' ordained before the ages -- which is Christ, a person
"chosen" is in the KJV 119 times
"predestined" is in the NT 5 times
"elect" is in the NT 19 times ((oddly enough never referring to democracy?))
143 isn't 'a handful' of times. you found 2 that are merely indirectly instead of directly with reference to people. congratulations. 2 < 141.
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Elect/chosen are not the words under consideration here, only predestined as the issues with "elect" and "chosen" are different and the function of the word necessitates it be referencing persons.
5 absolutely is a handful, especially when roughly half of those references don't support your "all" claim.
As for Romans 8, yes it is "those" He foreknew but it doesn't specify how He foreknew them and drawing on other places where such foreknowledge is spoken of we can understand that to "those" in Christ and thereby justifiably infer the predestination is via the foreknowledge through Christ. The issue comes down to how we understand God's foreknowledge.
5 absolutely is a handful, especially when roughly half of those references don't support your "all" claim.
As for Romans 8, yes it is "those" He foreknew but it doesn't specify how He foreknew them and drawing on other places where such foreknowledge is spoken of we can understand that to "those" in Christ and thereby justifiably infer the predestination is via the foreknowledge through Christ. The issue comes down to how we understand God's foreknowledge.
Yes. But not for salvation (justification). He predestined for glorification (Rom 8:29,30). God did not simply stop with saving sinners from Hell. He purposed to make them perfect and glorious for Heaven. At the same time He offered eternal life to all mankind -- "whosoever" -- meaning anyone and everyone.
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Explain in more depth please.the above?
Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew.
He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son,so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.
What does this mean?
I am only prepared to discuss this,so please don’t start throwing other stuff into the mix.
Please explain what is being said?
Or anyone else....can explain,thank you.
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Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal:
“The Lord knows those who are His”
(2 Timothy 2:19)
But ye believe not, because ye are not of My sheep,
as I said unto you.
(John 10:26)
Jesus did not misspeak. John 10:26 is not backwards.
whosoever does not believe, does not believe because they are not His.
how do you deal with that? that's a causative statement, not an evidentiary one.
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'you are not My sheep because you do not believe' would be an evidentiary statement.
but this is not what Jesus said.
Jesus declared that certain ones do not ((John 10:26)) and cannot ((John 8:43-44)) hear and believe, because of who they belong to.
do we pretend this doesn't exist? this is amazing!
but this is not what Jesus said.
Jesus declared that certain ones do not ((John 10:26)) and cannot ((John 8:43-44)) hear and believe, because of who they belong to.
do we pretend this doesn't exist? this is amazing!
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That is all of us until we receive Christ. Why conflate this into some sort of predestination? Jesus was speaking to the elect among the nations. Jesus came to His own, the nation of Israel and they rejected Him. Note they made a choice to reject Christ.
Why did they choose the ways of their fathers who killed the prophets? They did not like the message of redemption because they would by necessity need to confess their need to be redeemed. Not unlike many today who will not admit their need to be saved because they value their own righteousness equal to that of Christ.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Why did they choose the ways of their fathers who killed the prophets? They did not like the message of redemption because they would by necessity need to confess their need to be redeemed. Not unlike many today who will not admit their need to be saved because they value their own righteousness equal to that of Christ.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
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