Calvinism and Context?

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garee

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Mar 28, 2016
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The sign of Jonah was the death ,burial and resurrection. But what happened to him happened to him .
God working in him finished the work of bringing the gospel, the work Jonas was reluctant to do.
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
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no friend; you're quite wrong. you are abusing language, eisegetically redefining words.

what you're describing is rightly called 'postdestination'

"pre-" means "before"
"
post-" means "after"


the scripture says He predestined us, not He postdestined us.
the Word describes God as the causative agent,
The Beginning and The End; you're describe your self as the origin.
What He predestines is His plan of salvation.

He does not predestine individual people to salvation.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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In view of the subject, don't fail to also consider the word in Eph1:12, "G4276 - proēlpikotas / proelpizó - [we who] fore-hoped, before hoped [in Christ]"... surely we should not take this as their meaning, "before we even existed[/before-the-Genesis-1-creation]". LOL



[I agree with those saying (along the lines of) that it was His plan to have an entity called "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" at this time and place in history (Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence])--see also Eph1:4 "chosen IN HIM *before [pro - G4253] the foundation of the world" (that is the position--"IN HIM")]
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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What He predestines is His plan of salvation.

He does not predestine individual people to salvation.
if that's really the case -- if the reasoning is because of what scripture says, not because of what human logic demands -- then why is it that every time the words "predestined" or "elect" or "chosen" are mentioned in scripture, the clear grammatical structure is referring to persons, not to 'a method' ?
 
Apr 2, 2020
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if that's really the case -- if the reasoning is because of what scripture says, not because of what human logic demands -- then why is it that every time the words "predestined" or "elect" or "chosen" are mentioned in scripture, the clear grammatical structure is referring to persons, not to 'a method' ?
This is false, but it's also built on a faulty premise. The word translated "predestined" only occurs a handful of times so to make a rule based on those few occasions is not well founded, especially building an entire system on that rule.
But if we look to other appearances we see it is used of situations in Acts 4:28, 1 cor. 2:7 and seems to directly be referring to the method of adoption in Ephesians 1:5.

Even in Romans 8 it could arguably be the method that is in mind with foreknowledge being the principle bridge between individuals and what follows. It and Ephesians 1:11 are the only places where it conceivably refers directly to people and in both cases there's ambiguity as to whether it is a direct selection or if it's speaking of adoption into Christ as what's in mind.
 

EleventhHour

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Nov 11, 2019
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This is false, but it's also built on a faulty premise. The word translated "predestined" only occurs a handful of times so to make a rule based on those few occasions is not well founded, especially building an entire system on that rule.
But if we look to other appearances we see it is used of situations in Acts 4:28, 1 cor. 2:7 and seems to directly be referring to the method of adoption in Ephesians 1:5.

Even in Romans 8 it could arguably be the method that is in mind with foreknowledge being the principle bridge between individuals and what follows. It and Ephesians 1:11 are the only places where it conceivably refers directly to people and in both cases there's ambiguity as to whether it is a direct selection or if it's speaking of adoption into Christ as what's in mind.
Agree, thank you!
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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they did was was predetermined

they speak to the mature the 'wisdom from God' ordained before the ages -- which is Christ, a person

the words "predestined" or "elect" or "chosen"
The word translated "predestined" only occurs a handful of times
"chosen" is in the KJV 119 times
"
predestined" is in the NT 5 times
"
elect" is in the NT 19 times ((oddly enough never referring to democracy?))


143 isn't 'a handful' of times. you found 2 that are merely indirectly instead of directly with reference to people. congratulations. 2 < 141.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Even in Romans 8 it could arguably be the method that is in mind
not hardly.

"those" He foreknew, He predestined.

you really think God doesn't know you, or personally care about you at all?
God's only about the process, not the people??

does He seek His own sheep or does He seek 'employment as a shepherd somewhere, any flock will do' ??
 
Apr 2, 2020
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they did was was predetermined



they speak to the mature the 'wisdom from God' ordained before the ages -- which is Christ, a person



"chosen" is in the KJV 119 times
"
predestined" is in the NT 5 times
"
elect" is in the NT 19 times ((oddly enough never referring to democracy?))


143 isn't 'a handful' of times. you found 2 that are merely indirectly instead of directly with reference to people. congratulations. 2 < 141.
Elect/chosen are not the words under consideration here, only predestined as the issues with "elect" and "chosen" are different and the function of the word necessitates it be referencing persons.

5 absolutely is a handful, especially when roughly half of those references don't support your "all" claim.

As for Romans 8, yes it is "those" He foreknew but it doesn't specify how He foreknew them and drawing on other places where such foreknowledge is spoken of we can understand that to "those" in Christ and thereby justifiably infer the predestination is via the foreknowledge through Christ. The issue comes down to how we understand God's foreknowledge.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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"those" He foreknew, He predestined
Yes. But not for salvation (justification). He predestined for glorification (Rom 8:29,30). God did not simply stop with saving sinners from Hell. He purposed to make them perfect and glorious for Heaven. At the same time He offered eternal life to all mankind -- "whosoever" -- meaning anyone and everyone.
 
May 19, 2020
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What He predestines is His plan of salvation.

He does not predestine individual people to salvation.

Explain in more depth please.the above?


Romans 8:29

For those God foreknew.
He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son,so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.

What does this mean?

I am only prepared to discuss this,so please don’t start throwing other stuff into the mix.

Please explain what is being said?

Or anyone else....can explain,thank you.
 
May 19, 2020
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Explain in more depth please.the above?


Romans 8:29

For those God foreknew.
He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son,so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.

What does this mean?

I am only prepared to discuss this,so please don’t start throwing other stuff into the mix.

Please explain what is being said?

Or anyone else....can explain,thank you.



Maybe @cv5 or @ForestGreenCook ..can explain in more depth,...Romans 8:29.thank you.
 
Jul 31, 2013
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He offered eternal life to all mankind -- "whosoever" -- meaning anyone and everyone.
Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal:
The Lord knows those who are His
(2 Timothy 2:19)
But ye believe not, because ye are not of My sheep,
as I said unto you.
(John 10:26)

Jesus did not misspeak. John 10:26 is not backwards.
whosoever does not believe, does not believe because they are not His.

how do you deal with that? that's a causative statement, not an
evidentiary one.
 
Jul 31, 2013
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that's a causative statement, not an evidentiary one.
'you are not My sheep because you do not believe' would be an evidentiary statement.
but this is not what Jesus said.
Jesus declared that certain ones do not ((John 10:26)) and cannot ((John 8:43-44)) hear and believe, because of who they belong to.

do we pretend this doesn't exist? this is amazing!
 
Aug 4, 2020
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This is false, but it's also built on a faulty premise. The word translated "predestined" only occurs a handful of times so to make a rule based on those few occasions is not well founded, especially building an entire system on that rule.
But if we look to other appearances we see it is used of situations in Acts 4:28, 1 cor. 2:7 and seems to directly be referring to the method of adoption in Ephesians 1:5.

Even in Romans 8 it could arguably be the method that is in mind with foreknowledge being the principle bridge between individuals and what follows. It and Ephesians 1:11 are the only places where it conceivably refers directly to people and in both cases there's ambiguity as to whether it is a direct selection or if it's speaking of adoption into Christ as what's in mind.
I see the adoption as mentioned in rom 8.23 as being the redemption of the body . Which is future .
 
May 17, 2013
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'you are not My sheep because you do not believe' would be an evidentiary statement.
but this is not what Jesus said.
Jesus declared that certain ones do not ((John 10:26)) and cannot ((John 8:43-44)) hear and believe, because of who they belong to.


do we pretend this doesn't exist? this is amazing!
That is all of us until we receive Christ. Why conflate this into some sort of predestination? Jesus was speaking to the elect among the nations. Jesus came to His own, the nation of Israel and they rejected Him. Note they made a choice to reject Christ.

Why did they choose the ways of their fathers who killed the prophets? They did not like the message of redemption because they would by necessity need to confess their need to be redeemed. Not unlike many today who will not admit their need to be saved because they value their own righteousness equal to that of Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
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