Calvinism And Predestination

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ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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#62
I can't understand the rhetoric because Jesus commissioned all Christians to preach the good news to all nations and all creatures on the earth. If some are damned from the beginning wouldn't trying to evangelize them be a waste of time?
Yes it would. That is why Jesus instructed his apostles to go and preach to the lost (not eternally, but from a lack of full knowledge of the gospel) sheep ( regenerated children of God) in the house of Israel (actually it is the house of Jacob) because God changed Jacob's name to be called no more Jacob but to be called Israel. Jacob is representative of God's elect. A lot of times in the scriptures having reference to Israel, it is actually referencing Jacob, or the elect. The apostles were never instructed to preach to anyone other than God's elect. The good news of the gospel is the fact that Jesus has paid for all of the sins of the elect.
 

GHClarkII

Active member
Mar 20, 2019
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#63
Are some predestined for hell without a choice? Are our destinies already planned out? Can we change our circumstances, or are they set in stone?

What say you?
I am so very sorry budman. You asked for Calvinists to answer and after reading all those answers, not one person is a Calvinist. I will answer for you, and thanks for asking.
Yes. God created out of the same mass of humanity one group for honor and one for dishonor. We fell corporately in Adam, but He has chosen to save an elect people by His grace. Some are regenerated and called to faith in Christ. They will be saved from their sins. The rest are left in their evil and will be judged. Read Romans 9, it should help answer your question better.

The Bible teaches what we call calvinism from cover to cover. You can find it all over the place. God bless
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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#64
I do not know every thing but for sure the Bible say God is love.
God forgive if people believe in Him and ask Him to come to their heart

If people reject Him than it is their choice to go to hell

If people accept Him than change their mind to reject Him than go to hell.

All I know is if we accept Him we go to heaven, if we reject a Him we go to hell.

People have disagreement in how people accept or reject

Calvinis believe if you believe, that because God make you believe, god chose you to believe

Armenian believe freewill

But both believe that only people that accept Jesus save. So the disagreement is in how you believe,

I believe

Whosoever believe in Jesus will be chose to go to heaven

John 3:16
The natural man will never believe in spiritual things that he cannot discern (1 Cor 2:14). God, by his foreknowledge, saw that no one would seek him, no, not one (Psalms 53:2-3) This is what he had to choose from, so he choose a people out of those that would not seek him and had Jesus to die for all of their sins so he would have a people to praise and worship him.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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#66
Wrong. All who the Father gives to Jesus come, and all are raised up ate the last day. Read John 6
Here's how I understand that (in your reference to "John 6"):

--John 6:37 involves two parts (one part is "all that [neuter]" [which is not "persons"], and the other part is "he/him [who]" [that is, "persons"])

--John 6:39 ("all that" [which is not "persons"]) distinct from John 6:40 ("everyone/all who [masculine]" [persons])


The "that" which He will "raise up AT/IN the last day" is all of His "kingdom/throne/sceptre/judgment/governance [earthly-MK]" things.

The "who" are those persons who have trusted Him for salvation [here I include OT saints, as shown in Matt8:11].


Are you thinking of other verses?
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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#67
TheDivineWatermark said:
^ I disagree that they were already "regenerated" ^ [this comment was supposed to go along with the end of my last post :D ]
How do you interpret 1 Cor 2:14?
First off, I think my comment (quoted above) was in view of (someone's) reference to Acts 7:51, if I recall ("ye do always resist the Holy Spirit, as your fathers did, so do ye.")

Secondly, I believe I have gone over this with you before, that 1Cor3:1 is in the same context as this 1Cor2:14 passage, where Paul is telling BELIEVERS (the "already-saved") that he could not yet speak unto them "as spiritual" but "as unto carnal" and adds, "as unto babes in Christ"... which means they were not yet ready for that which 1Cor2 references (where v.6 had just said "we speak wisdom among them which are the teleiois / mature" and v. 10 speaks of [what was revealed unto them/the apostles/NT-prophets] "the deep things of God" and v.12 "that we might know the things freely given to us of God" and v.16b "but we have the mind of Christ" [these are things we now have recorded in the NT epistles...]).

So if these "believers" in 3:1 are indeed SAVED ["IN Christ"] (but "are yet carnal" 3:3), how did they come to faith??
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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#68
I think all men are born with a heart of love. This is the image of God we have.
It gets hurt and damaged as we grow, and we hide and shut it out becoming more
and more inflexible and able to change because of the contradictions we build up.

When Gods word is preached it speaks to the love we have, if it is not completely shut down.
Now if we have shut love out, then nothing will get through. If we are listening and open,
then there is hope. New life comes into being as we dwell on Christs words.
But only the elect truly respond. According to Jesus others grasp some of the promise, but it
gets snatched away again. Only in the good soil does it take root and grow.

So I do not differentiate between the natural man and the spiritual man. I differentiate between
hearts of stone and hearts that are willing to change and listen.
The thing about the heart of stone, it never wants to change and believe in spiritual things that it cannot discern. (1 Cor 2:14). Man does not change his heart God changes his heart. The process is called regeneration, being born again, changed from natural to spiritual. Ezek 11:19 - And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and I will give them an heart of flesh;
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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#69
First off, I think my comment (quoted above) was in view of (someone's) reference to Acts 7:51, if I recall ("ye do always resist the Holy Spirit, as your fathers did, so do ye.")

Secondly, I believe I have gone over this with you before, that 1Cor3:1 is in the same context as this 1Cor2:14 passage, where Paul is telling BELIEVERS (the "already-saved") that he could not yet speak unto them "as spiritual" but "as unto carnal" and adds, "as unto babes in Christ"... which means they were not yet ready for that which 1Cor2 references (where v.6 had just said "we speak wisdom among them which are the teleiois / mature" and v. 10 speaks of [what was revealed unto them/the apostles/NT-prophets] "the deep things of God" and v.12 "that we might know the things freely given to us of God" and v.16b "but we have the mind of Christ" [these are things we now have recorded in the NT epistles...]).

So if these "believers" in 3:1 are indeed SAVED ["IN Christ"] (but "are yet carnal" 3:3), how did they come to faith??
First off, a person can not be "IN CHRIST" except through regeneration, Eph 2:5. When we are regenerated, we start off as babes in Christ and we go through a process of hearing and believing as we grow in the knowledge of the gospel.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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#70
First off, a person can not be "IN CHRIST" except through regeneration, Eph 2:5. When we are regenerated, […]
I think I've mentioned this to you before (although it may have been another poster, sometimes a few of you seem to run all together in my thinking, my apologies for that :D )... I believe you are reading "Ephesians 2:5" out of its context, for the word there is "synezōopoiēsen [G4806]" (and note the "syn - G4862" word within it)... this means that whatever this word means here, that it was accomplished "TOGETHER WITH" Christ... and He Himself had NO NEED to be "regenerated" in the sense you are taking this to mean, in THIS context. IOW, this is speaking of our identification with Him, in what He accomplished there (in His own Person), and not the "regeneration" you are referring to. This is the context of Ephesians 2.

[This happened on the day of His resurrection/ON Firstfruit, in 32ad]
 

Limey410v2

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2017
410
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#71
I am so very sorry budman. You asked for Calvinists to answer and after reading all those answers, not one person is a Calvinist. I will answer for you, and thanks for asking.
Yes. God created out of the same mass of humanity one group for honor and one for dishonor. We fell corporately in Adam, but He has chosen to save an elect people by His grace. Some are regenerated and called to faith in Christ. They will be saved from their sins. The rest are left in their evil and will be judged. Read Romans 9, it should help answer your question better.

The Bible teaches what we call calvinism from cover to cover. You can find it all over the place. God bless
I thought the Bible taught Jesus from cover to cover. I could be wrong.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
2,118
220
63
#72
I think I've mentioned this to you before (although it may have been another poster, sometimes a few of you seem to run all together in my thinking, my apologies for that :D )... I believe you are reading "Ephesians 2:5" out of its context, for the word there is "synezōopoiēsen [G4806]" (and note the "syn - G4862" word within it)... this means that whatever this word means here, that it was accomplished "TOGETHER WITH" Christ... and He Himself had NO NEED to be "regenerated" in the sense you are taking this to mean, in THIS context. IOW, this is speaking of our identification with Him, in what He accomplished there (in His own Person), and not the "regeneration" you are referring to. This is the context of Ephesians 2.

[This happened on the day of His resurrection/ON Firstfruit, in 32ad]
In Eph 2:5, the word "quickened" means "made alive". The natural man, as we were before God quickened us, were dead spiritually and through the process of regeneration, which consisted in God taking out our heart of stone and replacing it with a heart of flesh, Ezek 11:19. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit was also given by God in regeneration. The natural man, until he was regenerated and made a spiritual man did not seek God, Psalms 53:2-3. So, to me, the natural man could not be "together with Christ" nor could he be "in Christ".
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
38,648
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#73
Are some predestined for hell without a choice? Are our destinies already planned out? Can we change our circumstances, or are they set in stone?

What say you?
I say GOD knows every decision that every man will make before he cast down the world in creation.......and he is under NO obligation to bend to the will of man.....every scripture written that deals with the destiny of each and every man is based upon this particular foreknowledge.....
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
6,516
395
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#74
You hit on a good point. To believe we go to heaven. But the way you mention it is like a single
one off transaction. But like a baby being born it is a life long adventure with change and growth.

For Gods elect I think this is very straightforward. For 2nd and 3rd generation believers it is much
more difficult, if they spend their life being conformist and then discover they never actually knew
themselves. Unravelling sin, repentance, self discovery, truth, emotional openness and vulnerability are
complex dilemmas. Religion and ones own choices often get very confusing.

I get the impression we think this road is an event, when it is growing towards the light or fading away.
At the end it becomes a lot clearer, but in the moment we feel things are very established and unmovable.
Yep, it is confusing now, a lot of question we do not know the answer.

Free will ask why loving God predestined people to hell

Calvinis ask if it free will how about people in remote that never heard about Jesus.

I only dare to say what the Bible say, whosoever believe will be save.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
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#75
cc convinces me of one thing, a hard heart knows nothing.

Children are born wide eyed and open, wanting to learn and discover the details.
Something quite radical happens between this and being 25.

If by 25 one has locked out hope and love, nothing will move you and probably one
will not survive much longer.

Once you have a person who is open to change and willing to listen, there is hope.
So when we talk of predestination, some become predestined to judgement early on,
because their hearts go cold. Jesus talked about this

10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,
11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,
13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Matt 24

So it is a wonder anyone listens to God and repents, even though this is the path to life.
Gods predestination is not the guiding factor, it is mans hardness of heart.
 

Melach

Active member
Mar 28, 2019
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#76
I say GOD knows every decision that every man will make before he cast down the world in creation.......and he is under NO obligation to bend to the will of man.....every scripture written that deals with the destiny of each and every man is based upon this particular foreknowledge.....
i think it looks like sometimes God knows the future, when He tells things that happen beforehand.
but sometimes He doesnt look like He knows because it says for example:
"perhaps they repent"
"i sought for a man and found none"
"what could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? why, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?"


so in some cases God knows the future, in some cases He doesnt. why does it change like that in the bible? i found pastor Piper explain that its just a figure of speech kind of, God speaks in human language to humans, but im not sure how i feel about that answer...

there is also that incident where that man asks God to increase His life span. showing that God can change His plans on the fly if people do pray and change. but maybe that prayer of the man was also predestinated? i wish we had calvinist here to answer us
 

GHClarkII

Active member
Mar 20, 2019
147
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#77
i think it looks like sometimes God knows the future, when He tells things that happen beforehand.
but sometimes He doesnt look like He knows because it says for example:
"perhaps they repent"
"i sought for a man and found none"
"what could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? why, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?"


so in some cases God knows the future, in some cases He doesnt. why does it change like that in the bible? i found pastor Piper explain that its just a figure of speech kind of, God speaks in human language to humans, but im not sure how i feel about that answer...
If God does not perfectly know the future then prophecy is no guarantee. He mocks the false gods in Isaiah because they cannot tell the future. That would mean that He fails His own test for godhood. Not sure how you would feel about that either
 

Melach

Active member
Mar 28, 2019
438
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#78
If God does not perfectly know the future then prophecy is no guarantee. He mocks the false gods in Isaiah because they cannot tell the future. That would mean that He fails His own test for godhood. Not sure how you would feel about that either
where does this happen in the bible? i didnt mean to mock God i was just reading and thinking. i didnt say for sure or teaching others. im only trying to combine these two kinds of verses
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
2,584
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#79
i think it looks like sometimes God knows the future, when He tells things that happen beforehand.
but sometimes He doesnt look like He knows because it says for example:
"perhaps they repent"
"i sought for a man and found none"
"what could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? why, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?"


so in some cases God knows the future, in some cases He doesnt. why does it change like that in the bible? i found pastor Piper explain that its just a figure of speech kind of, God speaks in human language to humans, but im not sure how i feel about that answer...

there is also that incident where that man asks God to increase His life span. showing that God can change His plans on the fly if people do pray and change. but maybe that prayer of the man was also predestinated? i wish we had calvinist here to answer us
Hi Melach,

You raise a good point. My thinking has gone like this. Why does God want to engage with us?
Because the nature of love is this engagement and the joy that comes from giving and receiving.

Now from Gods perspective you could only engage with those who have a good outcome. But
that would mean you did not equally love and desire engagement with all. And the message is
engagement and openness are everything, sharing the moment, being in the present, enjoying
and blessing while it is today. So this is His language, and His chosen way of being.

It is meaningful when one is slandered or attacked. Is there value in responding in kind?
To a degree but mainly no. Because such things do not change our hearts, and most hate what
our hearts testify to, and do not believe it is true and want to test us, because they have been
betrayed so many times in the past. So Gods words reflect His heart, searching and desiring to
find those who bless and serve and listen wherever He is working, Amen, Thank you Jesus.
 

GHClarkII

Active member
Mar 20, 2019
147
31
28
#80
where does this happen in the bible? i didnt mean to mock God i was just reading and thinking. i didnt say for sure or teaching others. im only trying to combine these two kinds of verses
Isaiah 48