Calvinism vs. Arminianism?

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garee

Banned
#181
Mar 28, 2016
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#181
DevotiontoBible said:
You still did not answer. What does God not see that He needs to have faith for it?
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If men do not beleive God (no faith) will it make the faith of God that comes from hearing God without effect? To effect something is to work it out. Or do we let God be true and every man a liar.

It would seem you are having Christ's faith in respect to your own self. That would mean you have blasphemed His name by which he calls us.

To blaspheme is to take the work accredited to one and give it to another . (like plagiarism )
 
carl11

carl11

Senior Member
#182
Oct 20, 2017
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#182
Nehemiah6 said:
Yes. In this context "His people" are the Jews. And while this was not fulfilled completely at His first coming, it will be fulfilled at the second coming of Christ. Please note: And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer [Christ], and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob (Rom 11:26).
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Jn. 1:11
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

So in the context here we would have a contradiction.
 
Musicus

Musicus

Senior Member
#183
Oct 26, 2017
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#183
carl11 said:
No I'm not missing the point I understand what you are conveying. Maybe the problem lies in how you are using the word all. Like I mentioned before and the more I read it over and over again how you and others are using this word I'm convinced that you are implying all. All, as in give me all of the marbles and not as give me all of the marbles "except" black. In other words it appears on one hand there are no conditions and then on the other hand there are conditions.
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Basic logic, as long as we all agree on what all the words mean.
I want all the marbles.
Give me all the marbles.
But you give me only half the marbles.
I do not have all the marbles I wanted, though I do have all the marbles I have.
but that doesn't change the fact that I still wanted all the marbles.

God wants all people to be saved.
Some people won't be saved
but, God still wanted all people to be saved, even though they won't all be saved, because they all CAN be (or could have been) saved.

Why? because all have (or had) the choice to accept salvation or reject it.

God gave all of us the choice. God does not choose for us.
Joshua 24:15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve.

Salvation is a gift given in grace, when we have the faith for it. Same faith as we can have in anything. Faith is faith is faith. We definitely can have faith in people and things before salvation from God. Even Atheists have faith in things, like faith that a rope will hold, or an airplane will fly, etc. It's all faith, different levels, yes, but still faith.
 
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DevotiontoBible

Senior Member
#185
Jan 6, 2018
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#185
garee said:
If men do not beleive God (no faith) will it make the faith of God that comes from hearing God without effect? To effect something is to work it out. Or do we let God be true and every man a liar.

It would seem you are having Christ's faith in respect to your own self. That would mean you have blasphemed His name by which he calls us.

To blaspheme is to take the work accredited to one and give it to another . (like plagiarism )
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You still are refusing to answer the question. You can't answer it because you are full baloney.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#186
#186
God does not force anyone to accept salvation to avoid damnation
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I almost missed this and it is quoted from my post. would people please use the quote feature? unless of course you don't want to be clear who you are posting to?

garee said:
I would agree at least no more that he forced you to be born the first time. The first creation( fleshly)
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then what happens to 'I knew you in the womb?'

is that speculation on the part of God?
 
S

shrume

Senior Member
#187
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
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#187
carl11 said:
Jn. 1:11
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

So in the context here we would have a contradiction.
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There is no contradiction. In this context, who were "his own"? The Jews. Did the Jews receive him? Most did not.
 
carl11

carl11

Senior Member
#188
Oct 20, 2017
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#188
Musicus said:
e saved
but, God still wanted all people to be saved, even though they won't all be saved, because they all CAN be (or could have been) saved.

Why? because all have (or had) the choice to accept salvation or reject it.

God gave all of us the choice. God does not choose for us.
Joshua 24:15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve.

Salvation is a gift given in grace, when we have the faith for it. Same faith as we can have in anything. Faith is faith is faith. We definitely can have faith in people and things before salvation from God. Even Atheists have faith in things, like faith that a rope will hold, or an airplane will fly, etc. It's all faith, different levels, yes, but still faith.
Click to expand...
 
carl11

carl11

Senior Member
#189
Oct 20, 2017
277
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#189
Musicus said:
God gave all of us the choice. God does not choose for us.
Joshua 24:15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve.

Salvation is a gift given in grace, when we have the faith for it. Same faith as we can have in anything. Faith is faith is faith. We definitely can have faith in people and things before salvation from God. Even Atheists have faith in things, like faith that a rope will hold, or an airplane will fly, etc. It's all faith, different levels, yes, but still faith.
Click to expand...
Jn. 15:9 tells us who does the choosing. Ah yes the famous Joshua 24:15, it says nothing of the sort of choosing God, but rather other gods.
 
carl11

carl11

Senior Member
#190
Oct 20, 2017
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#190
shrume said:
There is no contradiction. In this context, who were "his own"? The Jews. Did the Jews receive him? Most did not.
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His own would be all of those whom he has planned to save.
 
S

shrume

Senior Member
#191
Jun 26, 2017
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#191
carl11 said:
His own would be all of those whom he has planned to save.
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"His own" in John 1:11 is the Jews.

God sent Jesus to save anyone who will freely choose to believe.
 
S

shrume

Senior Member
#192
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
463
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#192
carl11 said:
Jn. 15:9 tells us who does the choosing.
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How so?

John 15:
9) As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

Ah yes the famous Joshua 24:15, it says nothing of the sort of choosing God, but rather other gods.
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Have you read verse 16?

16) And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods;
 
D

Danny1988

Active member
#193
Jun 24, 2018
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#193
DevotiontoBible said:
No, mountains of verses do not support Calvinism unless using eiseges then you can make anything supported by Bible verses...slavery, genocide, Communism...anything.
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The Holy Bible is the Word of God, it is foolishness to those who are perishing and it can't be understood by professing believers unless they pray and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal the meaning.

Most professing Christians read the Bible like an encyclopedia, we can't just read it and take everything literally neither can we take it all symbolically. Calvin believed that God is sovereign over all things, you Arminian's don't believe that God is sovereign over all things, you limit Him to your own understanding. We allow Him to be sovereign over everything because He is the almighty God, He is without any limits.

We believe He decides who He will save and who He will leave in their sins, you say that you decide this. I tried to paste a list of Bible verses which prove election and predestination but there were too many to fit.

All you need to do is google, Bible verses supporting Calvinism and you will find mountains of Scriptures which show it to be true
 
M

mcubed

Senior Member
#194
Dec 20, 2013
1,449
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#194
Endoscopy said:
If you read the 5 points of each they are diametrically opposed to each other.

Reformed/Calvinism
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints

Armenianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace

For a deeper discussion of the differences go to this web site,

https://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html
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So what was the debate before John Calvin or Jacobus Arminius ever lived... Neither one of them lived before the 1500's?

Were non of those people saved because they did not know there should be a debate Calvinism vs. Arminianism?
 
G

garee

Banned
#195
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
#195
7seasrekeyed said:
I almost missed this and it is quoted from my post. would people please use the quote feature? unless of course you don't want to be clear who you are posting to?




then what happens to 'I knew you in the womb?'

is that speculation on the part of God?
Click to expand...
Sorry, I missed the quote indicator.

I would suggest that does not take away the fact that a person must be born again. The second birth was revealed to those from the womb, not by the womb

If any man has not the eternal Spirit of Christ than neither do they belong to Him. There names where written in the Lambs book of life even before their first birth.
 
G

garee

Banned
#197
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
#197
mcubed said:
So what was the debate before John Calvin or Jacobus Arminius ever lived... Neither one of them lived before the 1500's?

Were non of those people saved because they did not know there should be a debate Calvinism vs. Arminianism?
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I think it has more as to how men interpret or mix faith in what they do hear coming from the word of God.

Some say look to the literal if it makes sense look no further. While other say without parables God did not speak, hiding the spiritual understanding from the lost.

It was the difference between the reformers and the Catholics, or the Nazarene sect and that of the Pharisees with Sadducees
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#198
#198
garee said:
Sorry, I missed the quote indicator.

I would suggest that does not take away the fact that a person must be born again. The second birth was revealed to those from the womb, not by the womb

If any man has not the eternal Spirit of Christ than neither do they belong to Him. There names where written in the Lambs book of life even before their first birth.
Click to expand...

that's not a suggestion and has nothing to do with what I said

the Bible says we must be 'born again' or if you will, saved, converted...however a person wants to express it...meaning accept Christ as our Savior according the gosple laid out in the NT

I was replying to what you said here:

garee said:
I would agree at least no more that he forced you to be born the first time. The first creation( fleshly)
Click to expand...
which was your response to what I said here:

God does not force anyone to accept salvation to avoid damnation
 
D

DevotiontoBible

Senior Member
#199
Jan 6, 2018
1,796
154
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#199
Danny1988 said:
The Holy Bible is the Word of God, it is foolishness to those who are perishing and it can't be understood by professing believers unless they pray and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal the meaning.

Most professing Christians read the Bible like an encyclopedia, we can't just read it and take everything literally neither can we take it all symbolically. Calvin believed that God is sovereign over all things, you Arminian's don't believe that God is sovereign over all things, you limit Him to your own understanding. We allow Him to be sovereign over everything because He is the almighty God, He is without any limits.

We believe He decides who He will save and who He will leave in their sins, you say that you decide this. I tried to paste a list of Bible verses which prove election and predestination but there were too many to fit.

All you need to do is google, Bible verses supporting Calvinism and you will find mountains of Scriptures which show it to be true
Click to expand...
God is not sovereign over everything since His grace is not irresistible:
“You stubborn people! You are heathen at heart and deaf to the truth. Must you forever resist the Holy Spirit? That’s what your ancestors did, and so do you!
Acts of the Apostles 7:51 NLT
https://bible.com/bible/116/act.7.51.NLT
 
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DevotiontoBible

Senior Member
#200
Jan 6, 2018
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#200
garee said:
Really? He does not have to believe anything. How did our faithful Creator create? Or did nothing cause something?
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You think God can't see the future so He needs faith for things He can't see before it was created?
 
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