Calvinism vs. Arminianism?

[Deade]

In essence you are saying the same in that God looked through the corridors of time and saw who would chose and who would chose not. So my rebutted would be well why didn’t God do something to those whom he knew wouldn’t believe. Would that not make God a evil person also or would it be his divine purpose that those whom he knew wouldn’t chose HIM be sent to everlasting condemnation.

Yes, God looked through the corridors of time and used who He wanted for as long as He wanted. Even if they eventually become lost, God can still use them. Just look at Solomon: we have two books of our Bible he authored, but he eventually was lost as far as we know. Why is that you ask? Well look here:

John 3:19, 20 "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."

People that won't serve God want nothing to do with doing things God's way. They like their own way.

 

[Danny1988]

No they are not. Predestination just says that God knows our choices in the future, that doesn't keep us from making those choices.

View attachment 184988

Well what are you an Arminian or Calvinist and please don't say neither. You either believe God predesignates His elect to salvation or they are save by making a choice to believe the Gospel. You can't have it both ways

 

[Danny1988]

Yes, God looked through the corridors of time and used who He wanted for as long as He wanted. Even if they eventually become lost, God can still use them. Just look at Solomon: we have two books of our Bible he authored, but he eventually was lost as far as we know. Why is that you ask? Well look here:

John 3:19, 20 "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."

People that won't serve God want nothing to do with doing things God's way. They like their own way.

View attachment 184990

Those verses don't confirm either view, you can read them and conclude that man is saved by choosing to believe the Gospel or you could conclude that God caused them to believe or not believe. Take your pick, I go along with god being sovereign over all things including who He chooses to save

 

[Dino246]

Well what are you an Arminian or Calvinist and please don't say neither. You either believe God predesignates His elect to salvation or they are save by making a choice to believe the Gospel. You can't have it both ways

This is a false dichotomy. We are not forced to make a decision between these two options.

 

[Danny1988]

This is a false dichotomy. We are not forced to make a decision between these two options.

Can you please list the third option for us, thank you

 

[justpassinthrough]

Those verses don't confirm either view, you can read them and conclude that man is saved by choosing to believe the Gospel or you could conclude that God caused them to believe or not believe. Take your pick, I go along with god being sovereign over all things including who He chooses to save

For God so loved the elect, that He gave them no choice but to believe, that whosoever was predestined to be saved should not perish, but have have everlasting life. Calvinism 3:16



For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16



One of these is the truth, and one is a lie.



You choose.




JPT

 

[Dino246]

Can you please list the third option for us, thank you

The third option is simple: don't worry about it. Our salvation and our Christian life are not dependent upon having chosen either of these as being "correct". One of them may be, or not.

 

[justpassinthrough]

4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. 1 John 2:4-5



Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9



JPT

 

[carl11]

Yes, God looked through the corridors of time and used who He wanted for as long as He wanted. Even if they eventually become lost, God can still use them. Just look at Solomon: we have two books of our Bible he authored, but he eventually was lost as far as we know. Why is that you ask? Well look here:

John 3:19, 20 "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."

People that won't serve God want nothing to do with doing things God's way. They like their own way.

Sure God can use different types of people and even including animals case in point look at Num. 22:28-30, look at Job in how he used Job and satan. It can go on and on.

But what about the idea of God looking through the corridors of time and knowing whom will chose him and whom will not. Would not that make God and evil person ?

 

[carl11]

So those that abhor to the reformed idea, I believe in reality you do not abhor but in essence are saying the same thing.
When one says God wishes all to be saved, that is a true statement, Or God so loved the world, or those that confess or choose....etc.

Let me ask you this question, there is no contradiction in the fact that we all know that not all will believe or chose Christ because of the day of judgment. So with that in mind; those that do choose, those that do believe, those that do confess...etc who are they ?

We know for a fact again that it is not everybody and if it is not everybody would anyone be willing to say that they have to be God's elect as described in Mrk. 13:27, or even perhaps one could say they God's chosen ones as described in Mt. 22:14. Also could we say that they are God's church as in Mt. 16:18.

If they are none of these as mentioned in these verses then who are they ?

 

[Iconoclast]

You're actually changing the word "whosoever" to "God's elect".

You are actually changing...everyone believing....into whosoever

15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during,
16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

 

[Deade]

So those that abhor to the reformed idea, I believe in reality you do not abhor but in essence are saying the same thing.
When one says God wishes all to be saved, that is a true statement, Or God so loved the world, or those that confess or choose....etc.

Let me ask you this question, there is no contradiction in the fact that we all know that not all will believe or chose Christ because of the day of judgment. So with that in mind; those that do choose, those that do believe, those that do confess...etc who are they ?

We know for a fact again that it is not everybody and if it is not everybody would anyone be willing to say that they have to be God's elect as described in Mrk. 13:27, or even perhaps one could say they God's chosen ones as described in Mt. 22:14. Also could we say that they are God's church as in Mt. 16:18.

If they are none of these as mentioned in these verses then who are they ?

Oh, but they are all of those things if they have the Holy Spirit. Those are just labels, but they belong to all who are the called. What we want to be called doesn't enter into the picture. It is what God calls us that matters.

 

[Deade]

Well what are you an Arminian or Calvinist and please don't say neither. You either believe God predesignates His elect to salvation or they are save by making a choice to believe the Gospel. You can't have it both ways

Neither! I believe just what I said and I don't care what some Medieval Protestant patriarch decided which of the false doctrines he would carry from the apostate Catholic Church. All these Protestant, Reformation or otherwise, churches are still daughters of the Great Whore. God will no longer wink at our ignorance.

Is it so hard to understand that God knows the future, He knows how we will choose. That still doesn't take away our choice. That is all predestination means, it is not the surreal fabricated reality dreamed up of the Calvinist.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

You're actually changing the word "whosoever" to "God's elect".

Like I have told you before, Shrume, The word "world" according to Thayer's Greek interpretation, means "believers only".

 

[notuptome]

Like I have told you before, Shrume, The word "world" according to Thayer's Greek interpretation, means "believers only".

So you want us to believe that Thayer's defines kosmos as believers only? I would laugh if it were not so sad. Look it up in Strongs and compare the definitions.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[trofimus]

Can you please list the third option for us, thank you

Catholic view, orthodox view, lutheran view, leibnizian view, molinism... to list some

But here, on the CC, its really mostly "arminianism vs calvinism".

 

[OstrichSmiling]

How did it become Calvinism vs. Arminianism? What was the debate before the 15,000's or so? Were people saved before they knew they were not saved?.... Is that question plain? ...lol

A simple comparison table.

T – TOTAL DEPRAVITY – We are so totally depraved that we are even unable to seek God.
U – UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION – God’s decision to elect us to be His children is not conditional upon anything He sees in us.
L – LIMITED ATONEMENT – Jesus died on the cross to atone for the sins of a limited number of people (i.e. those whom God elects)
I – IRRESISTABLE GRACE – God’s grace is so powerful it is impossible to resist when He chooses us
P – PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS – The people God chooses to be His children (also called His saints) will remain His children because God will give them the ability to persevere in the faith.

Arminianism places the emphasis on our decision to choose God…

TOTAL DEPRAVITY – We are so totally depraved that we are even unable to seek God.
PREVENIENT GRACE – The grace given by God that precedes the act of the sinner placing their faith in Jesus. This grace is given to all people and it allows them to see their need for Jesus to save them.
ATONEMENT FOR ALL – Jesus died on the cross to atone for the sins of allpeople
RESISTABLE GRACE – God’s grace can be resisted by our free-will
SECURITY IN CHRIST – Our relationship with God is secure as long as we continue to have faith in Christ

2. BOTH CALVINISTS AND ARMINIANS BELIEVE IN ‘TOTAL DEPRAVITY’


Source

 

[OstrichSmiling]

Like I have told you before, Shrume, The word "world" according to Thayer's Greek interpretation, means "believers only".

Bible Study Tools
Lexicon "Kosmos"

8.any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

1. the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)
2. of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19

 

[shrume]

Bible Study Tools
Lexicon "Kosmos"

8.any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

1. the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)
2. of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19

Don't leave out the rest of the definitions. Particularly note #6:

Definition

1. an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
2. ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:
3. the world, the universe
4. the circle of the earth, the earth
5. the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
6. the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
7. world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
   1. the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ
8. any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
   1. the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)
   2. of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19

Also, if Thayer subscribed to Calvinism (I don't know that he did..), of course he would assign definition 8.2 to John 3:16.

 

[shrume]

Like I have told you before, Shrume, The word "world" according to Thayer's Greek interpretation, means "believers only".

Was Thayer a Calvinist, Forest?