Calvinism vs. Arminianism?

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shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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#21
"Whosoever" could mean one person or it could mean the whole world or something in between but we believe it refers to His elect
Why can't you accept it for what it says? Oh, because then it would contradict what you believe...
 

Danny1988

Active member
Jun 24, 2018
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#22
You're actually changing the word "whosoever" to "God's elect".
We believe, "whosoever" is calling out the elect. It's a call for them to come out of the world
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
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#23
Everyone is arguing over which medieval man's doctrine to follow. While they both carried out of the Catholic Church most of the errant doctrines of the harlot. Predestination is real, so is choice. Just because God knows the future doesn't negate our choices. We would be better off to forget about the predestination and get on with life. God is not "trying" to save as many as He can.

Jesus Christ sacrificed His life for the sins of the whole world not just the few He has chosen now. In order to understand scriptures like John 3:16, you will have to look at God's entire plan for salvation. The end result of what He is doing will enlighten all these misunderstood scriptures.


 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
463
83
#25
We believe, "whosoever" is calling out the elect. It's a call for them to come out of the world
You can "believe" whatever you like, but your belief is not supported by the text. It's how you interpret it because of what you believe, it is NOT what the text says.
 

Danny1988

Active member
Jun 24, 2018
410
124
43
#26
Everyone is arguing over which medieval man's doctrine to follow. While they both carried out of the Catholic Church most of the errant doctrines of the harlot. Predestination is real, so is choice. Just because God knows the future doesn't negate our choices. We would be better off to forget about the predestination and get on with life. God is not "trying" to save as many as He can.

Jesus Christ sacrificed His life for the sins of the whole world not just the few He has chosen now. In order to understand scriptures like John 3:16, you will have to look at God's entire plan for salvation. The end result of what He is doing will enlighten all these misunderstood scriptures.

What you said is contradictory, I don't see how you can justify supporting both predestination and free choice at the same time. The two views are in opposition
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
463
83
#27
Everyone is arguing over which medieval man's doctrine to follow. While they both carried out of the Catholic Church most of the errant doctrines of the harlot. Predestination is real, so is choice. Just because God knows the future doesn't negate our choices. We would be better off to forget about the predestination and get on with life. God is not "trying" to save as many as He can.
Individuals are not predestined. The church was predestined. Anyone can become a member of the church by choosing to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ sacrificed His life for the sins of the whole world not just the few He has chosen now. In order to understand scriptures like John 3:16, you will have to look at God's entire plan for salvation. The end result of what He is doing will enlighten all these misunderstood scriptures.
Universalism (which I gather is what you believe) is not true. People make their choice in this life. Once this life is over, there will be no second chance to "get it right".

Heb 9:
27) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
 

Danny1988

Active member
Jun 24, 2018
410
124
43
#29
You can "believe" whatever you like, but your belief is not supported by the text. It's how you interpret it because of what you believe, it is NOT what the text says.
It doesn't say that to you because you don't interpret it that way. It all comes down to how we interpret the texts, they should always be taken in the context of the whole counsel of God
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,183
8,792
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#30
We are all Arminian until we get saved then some of us become Calvinists because we are special.

We all have free will to choose but some after they are saved are convinced that it wasn't their will at all.

Did Adam have free will to choose to follow Eve after she ate?

A biblical argument can be made for all the five points of Calvinism but not the way Calvinists interpret them. Calvinism as we see it today grossly overstates the TULIP. By doing so they pervert the bible principals that Calvin was attempting to establish.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
If I am forced to bet on this game, I'll take Calvinism (-7) minus a touchdown!

But in all seriousness, this isn't a very cogent point Roger. Adam was alive and NOT yet infected with sin when he chose to disobey and sin. We are told over and over again in Scripture that we ALL sin, and are spiritually dead until born again. So not a very fair comparison.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,183
8,792
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#32
You're actually changing the word "whosoever" to "God's elect".
This much is certain. The 'whosoever' ARE the elect from God's point of view, as He knows the end from the beginning.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
463
83
#33
It doesn't say that to you because you don't interpret it that way. It all comes down to how we interpret the texts, they should always be taken in the context of the whole counsel of God
The "context of the whole counsel of God" is that He wants all men to be saved:

1 Tim 2:
4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

God is not willing that anyone perish, He wants all men to come to repentance:

2 Pet 3:
9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

He wants the wicked to turn (repent) of their evil ways so they might live:

Eze 33:
11) Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
463
83
#34
This much is certain. The 'whosoever' ARE the elect from God's point of view, as He knows the end from the beginning.
Absolutely anyone (whosoever) can become one of God's elect by choosing to believe the gospel.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
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#35
If I am forced to bet on this game, I'll take Calvinism (-7) minus a touchdown!

But in all seriousness, this isn't a very cogent point Roger. Adam was alive and NOT yet infected with sin when he chose to disobey and sin. We are told over and over again in Scripture that we ALL sin, and are spiritually dead until born again. So not a very fair comparison.
Along with the curse of sin came the knowledge of good and evil. Adam and all mankind inherited the curse of sin and the knowledge of good and evil. This knowledge demands that man choose as we see in John 3:18-21.

Calvinists overcook total depravity into total inability. God gave us the ability to choose.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
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Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
#36
Absolutely anyone (whosoever) can become one of God's elect by choosing to believe the gospel.
No, unless we are called we are serving a counterfeit Christianity. I am not a universalist, there are no second chances. We differ on when a man has his first chance. Satan is very much into religion. So many more are serving him than Christ, this so called angel of light.

2 Cor. 11:14 "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."

Why else would there be all this confusion about discerning the word of God?


in-deep-thought-smiley-emoticon.gif
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,183
8,792
113
#37
Along with the curse of sin came the knowledge of good and evil. Adam and all mankind inherited the curse of sin and the knowledge of good and evil. This knowledge demands that man choose as we see in John 3:18-21.

Calvinists overcook total depravity into total inability. God gave us the ability to choose.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
If I have the ability to choose not to sin, what do I need Jesus for? I could just not sin.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
463
83
#38
No, unless we are called we are serving a counterfeit Christianity.
God is calling everyone. He wants all men to be saved (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9)

I am not a universalist, there are no second chances. We differ on when a man has his first chance.
His first and only chance is in this life.

Satan is very much into religion. So many more are serving him than Christ, this so called angel of light.

2 Cor. 11:14 "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."

Why else would there be all this confusion about discerning the word of God?
While true, that is not relevant to this discussion.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#39
No, unless we are called we are serving a counterfeit Christianity. I am not a universalist, there are no second chances. We differ on when a man has his first chance. Satan is very much into religion. So many more are serving him than Christ, this so called angel of light.

2 Cor. 11:14 "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."

Why else would there be all this confusion about discerning the word of God?


View attachment 184603
We are elect in Christ not elected to be in Christ.

God does know who will be saved and who won't. That does not require God to choose who will be saved and who will not. The choice to receive Christ is given to every man. The sovereignty of God is not threatened by the free will of man to choose between sin and eternal life in Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
463
83
#40
If I have the ability to choose not to sin, what do I need Jesus for? I could just not sin.
Do you sin all the time? (I hope not... :) ) I'm sure you make many choices that are not sinful.