Calvinism vs. Arminianism?

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Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
10,619
4,084
113
#61
What are you trying to say, there is no such thing in the elect that do not believe and visa-versa.
Well that is exactly his point. There is no such thing as election for salvation.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (Jn 3:17)

And that means all the inhabitants of the earth. Look it up.
 

PurpleCandles

Active member
Jun 23, 2018
117
69
28
#62
How did it become Calvinism vs. Arminianism? What was the debate before the 15,000's or so? Were people saved before they knew they were not saved?.... Is that question plain? ...lol
Arminianism says you have to work to stay saved. Only when you're dead do you find out if you worked hard enough to earn Heaven.
Calvinism says, God elected those whom he would save. And those whom he would send to Hell before he created anything at all. But first he had to set it all in motion. And that's why there was a sin filled fruit tree planted in what could not be paradise; Eden. And that is why God permitted Ssssssatan to enter. Permission. Just like God gave when Job's life was destroyed on a bet between God and the Devil.
Both doctrines are wrong. Just like Methodism , named after its founer. And all the rest.
Egocentric men put their stamp on compiling scriptures in order to make their own ideal salvation model.

They're dead now. And very shocked that wasn't something God approved.
Look, it's really simple. Believe in Jesus with all your heart. Believe all those things you know you did before you found Jesus are forgiven and do not matter anymore. Believe that you are eternally in the free irrevocable gift that God calls salvation. And when you die you'll go to Heaven. You are not a sinner anymore. You are a new creation who's sins are now buried under the blood of the last sin sacrifice on the cross. Jesus.
Now, as soon as you believed God's guiding and holy spirit entered into you. And if you slowly learn to let go of the trappings of thinking, and it is thinking, you have to play by the ego rules of the flesh and instead trust that holy spirit inside you to guide you to the right path you'll see your life change. You'll also meet Christians who follow a man made tradition that has them believing they're still sinners.
Ignore them. They don't even know what Christianity is or what Jesus died for. They can never give you good advice on anything pertaining to the Bible. And likely you'll find out later they're what we call, POE-trolls. No, nothing to do with Edgar Allen.
Set them to ignore and your life will be a whole lot more peaceful if you ever find them on any forum you join. Trust me. Experience speaking.
 

Musicus

Senior Member
Oct 26, 2017
314
38
28
#64
What are you trying to say, there is no such thing in the elect that do not believe and visa-versa.

View attachment 184605
I'm giving Danny the benefit of the doubt, and asking a question. He re-interpreted John 3:16 to read "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son so THE ELECT who believe in Him [color emphasis mine] shall not perish but have ever lasting life". But obviously, by this, then, there are some of THE ELECT who DON'T believe in Him yet, so what happens to them if they don't ever believe? Or is it that they believe and don't know it? Also, what happens to people who are NOT the elect, but believe anyway? See, it makes no sense, because WE choose what we believe. It's a catch 22.
 

PurpleCandles

Active member
Jun 23, 2018
117
69
28
#65
How did it become Calvinism vs. Arminianism? What was the debate before the 15,000's or so? Were people saved before they knew they were not saved?.... Is that question plain? ...lol
The best way to operate in this world as a reborn Christian is to stay away from Denominations. It's like a clique club of who's right. And they all align against one another. Which tells you they're entirely wrong.
Jesus made it simple. Leave it to people to screw it up. Because it is a great bit of power for that which invents a denomination to claim they own God's truth. Get ready for the devil to say this is Gnosticism. :p There's a lot of those here.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16).

No one can come to God but through God. Jesus was God. If you believe in Jesus telling you that faith in him will let all those sins you've accrued since they were able to be tallied against you are washed away, you're saved and free. As soon as you believe in Jesus, who was God, you are filled with God's spirit.
The sin in the garden separated us from that union. We've been trying to find our way back to that union ever since. Jesus is that way.

Then , if you relax and visualize you are a new creation, baptize yourself. You can do this in your own bathtub. Ritualize it if you want. Submerge yourself in the water and believe you rise as Christ did from the grave. Leaving your old sinner self under the water. Pull the plug and your sins are washed away.
Rise up and you are reborn as from the watery womb of your mother. A new creation. Sinless an now a vessel that does God's will by his leading within you.
You've done things your own way for all those years before this. It will take time to let go and let God lead you. When you do you'll start to notice that everything that happens seems to have a fit. Like a puzzle piece into a bigger picture. And it is all positive.
Hard to describe in words. But when you see it for yourself you'll know it. And it is glorious. :)
 
Jan 6, 2018
1,796
153
63
#66
The best way to operate in this world as a reborn Christian is to stay away from Denominations. It's like a clique club of who's right. And they all align against one another. Which tells you they're entirely wrong.
Jesus made it simple. Leave it to people to screw it up. Because it is a great bit of power for that which invents a denomination to claim they own God's truth. Get ready for the devil to say this is Gnosticism. :p There's a lot of those here.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16).

No one can come to God but through God. Jesus was God. If you believe in Jesus telling you that faith in him will let all those sins you've accrued since they were able to be tallied against you are washed away, you're saved and free. As soon as you believe in Jesus, who was God, you are filled with God's spirit.
The sin in the garden separated us from that union. We've been trying to find our way back to that union ever since. Jesus is that way.

Then , if you relax and visualize you are a new creation, baptize yourself. You can do this in your own bathtub. Ritualize it if you want. Submerge yourself in the water and believe you rise as Christ did from the grave. Leaving your old sinner self under the water. Pull the plug and your sins are washed away.
Rise up and you are reborn as from the watery womb of your mother. A new creation. Sinless an now a vessel that does God's will by his leading within you.
You've done things your own way for all those years before this. It will take time to let go and let God lead you. When you do you'll start to notice that everything that happens seems to have a fit. Like a puzzle piece into a bigger picture. And it is all positive.
Hard to describe in words. But when you see it for yourself you'll know it. And it is glorious. :)
The same debate before then was between Augustine and Pelageus.
 

Danny1988

Active member
Jun 24, 2018
410
123
43
#67
Absolutely anyone (whosoever) can become one of God's elect by choosing to believe the gospel.
This is the exact point at which we disagree, we don't believe that one chooses to believe the Gospel.
We we believe that "choosing to believe the Gospel" is something that only the elect can do, and the ability to believe is given to them by God as a gift.
We don't know why God gives that gift to some and withholds it from others, God works in mysterious ways.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
460
83
#68
This is the exact point at which we disagree, we don't believe that one chooses to believe the Gospel.
I know.

We we believe that "choosing to believe the Gospel" is something that only the elect can do, and the ability to believe is given to them by God as a gift.
I know.

We don't know why God gives that gift to some and withholds it from others
He doesn't.

God works in mysterious ways.
He wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4).
 

Danny1988

Active member
Jun 24, 2018
410
123
43
#69
Along with the curse of sin came the knowledge of good and evil. Adam and all mankind inherited the curse of sin and the knowledge of good and evil. This knowledge demands that man choose as we see in John 3:18-21.

Calvinists overcook total depravity into total inability. God gave us the ability to choose.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
John 3:18-21 merely describe the two states of man, the reprobate and the elect.

I don't know how you managed to extract "free choice" out of those verses when no such thing is suggested. You are making the text say what you want it to say, while the texts are just describing the two different states which all men must belong to.

Everyone knows the difference between good and evil, but only God's elect can choose to believe. The reprobate are sealed in unbelief and no amount of reasoning, witnessing or pleading with them will produce faith.
 

Danny1988

Active member
Jun 24, 2018
410
123
43
#70
The best way to operate in this world as a reborn Christian is to stay away from Denominations. It's like a clique club of who's right. And they all align against one another. Which tells you they're entirely wrong.
Jesus made it simple. Leave it to people to screw it up. Because it is a great bit of power for that which invents a denomination to claim they own God's truth. Get ready for the devil to say this is Gnosticism. :p There's a lot of those here.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16).

No one can come to God but through God. Jesus was God. If you believe in Jesus telling you that faith in him will let all those sins you've accrued since they were able to be tallied against you are washed away, you're saved and free. As soon as you believe in Jesus, who was God, you are filled with God's spirit.
The sin in the garden separated us from that union. We've been trying to find our way back to that union ever since. Jesus is that way.

Then , if you relax and visualize you are a new creation, baptize yourself. You can do this in your own bathtub. Ritualize it if you want. Submerge yourself in the water and believe you rise as Christ did from the grave. Leaving your old sinner self under the water. Pull the plug and your sins are washed away.
Rise up and you are reborn as from the watery womb of your mother. A new creation. Sinless an now a vessel that does God's will by his leading within you.
You've done things your own way for all those years before this. It will take time to let go and let God lead you. When you do you'll start to notice that everything that happens seems to have a fit. Like a puzzle piece into a bigger picture. And it is all positive.
Hard to describe in words. But when you see it for yourself you'll know it. And it is glorious. :)
I don't think anyone here will believe you, all Christians believe the Bible and you come here and contradict it. You promote the idea that a believer should live in isolation when the Bible teaches us to be a part of the Body of Christ also known as the Church.
 

LW97

Senior Member
Apr 10, 2018
1,140
232
63
#71
Both have lots of the truth and lots of lies in their teachings.
 
Mar 14, 2011
66,744
12,836
113
#72
John 3:18-21 merely describe the two states of man, the reprobate and the elect.

I don't know how you managed to extract "free choice" out of those verses when no such thing is suggested. You are making the text say what you want it to say, while the texts are just describing the two different states which all men must belong to.

Everyone knows the difference between good and evil, but only God's elect can choose to believe. The reprobate are sealed in unbelief and no amount of reasoning, witnessing or pleading with them will produce faith.
John 3 is a story of a pharisee who is open to the truth comming to jesus in private to ask him about salvation, jesus tells him that he must be born again, then jesus explains why he came to earth, that as moses lifted up the serpant (where whoever looked up at that serpant in faith, was saved, whoever refused in unbelief, died) the son of man must also be lifted up (on the cross) that whoever (anyone) believes and looks to the cross, they themselves will be saved, whoever rejects and does not will die, for god so loved all his creation (the world) that he gave his only son that whoever (anyone) believes in him will. Ot die, bit has eternal life (will be born again)

I do not know who taught you how to read the bible, but they have let you down.
 
Mar 14, 2011
66,744
12,836
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#73
I don't think anyone here will believe you, all Christians believe the Bible and you come here and contradict it. You promote the idea that a believer should live in isolation when the Bible teaches us to be a part of the Body of Christ also known as the Church.
If he said that, i agree, but i think he said stay away from denominational churches. Not church itself
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
13,380
1,269
113
#74
Along with the curse of sin came the knowledge of good and evil. Adam and all mankind inherited the curse of sin and the knowledge of good and evil. This knowledge demands that man choose as we see in John 3:18-21.

Calvinists overcook total depravity into total inability. God gave us the ability to choose.

I see that more as God gave us His faith as it is written so that we can believe Him not seen . Without it no man could beleive .

Free will to a believer is to have the faith do the will of another . We can love Him only because he first loved us by giving ud the faith to work to both will and do His good pleasure.

Its the kind of will as our daily bread the disciples knew not of


John 4:33-35 Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat? Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.
 

Danny1988

Active member
Jun 24, 2018
410
123
43
#75
John 3 is a story of a pharisee who is open to the truth comming to jesus in private to ask him about salvation, jesus tells him that he must be born again, then jesus explains why he came to earth, that as moses lifted up the serpant (where whoever looked up at that serpant in faith, was saved, whoever refused in unbelief, died) the son of man must also be lifted up (on the cross) that whoever (anyone) believes and looks to the cross, they themselves will be saved, whoever rejects and does not will die, for god so loved all his creation (the world) that he gave his only son that whoever (anyone) believes in him will. Ot die, bit has eternal life (will be born again)

I do not know who taught you how to read the bible, but they have let you down.
The Bible says that God is all knowing, all mighty, sovereign over all things, knows all things from the beginning to the end, created all things, predestinated all things and nothing happens unless He wills it.

I can't read my Bible and walk away and conclude that God is only sovereign over some things but He doesn't have the power over other things as you are suggesting. We take Him at His word, we don't bring Him down to our level and force Him to do as we want Him to do as the Arminians do.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
460
83
#76
The Bible says that God is all knowing, all mighty, sovereign over all things, knows all things from the beginning to the end, created all things, predestinated all things and nothing happens unless He wills it.

I can't read my Bible and walk away and conclude that God is only sovereign over some things but He doesn't have the power over other things as you are suggesting. We take Him at His word, we don't bring Him down to our level and force Him to do as we want Him to do as the Arminians do.
Jer 19:5) They have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as offerings to Baal-something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.
 

Danny1988

Active member
Jun 24, 2018
410
123
43
#77
Jer 19:5) They have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as offerings to Baal-something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.
That's drawing a long bow, I was referring to people who don't give God the full glory he deserves. You can't believe that God is sovereign over all things then turn around and say, except for who gets saved. That's too important a subject to leave in the hands of sinful man, it also comes under "all"things
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
460
83
#78
That's drawing a long bow, I was referring to people who don't give God the full glory he deserves. You can't believe that God is sovereign over all things then turn around and say, except for who gets saved. That's too important a subject to leave in the hands of sinful man, it also comes under "all"things
God is not sovereign over all things. Many things that happen in this world are not God's will. Every time a person sins, it is not God's will. Every time a woman is raped, it is not God's will. Every time a murder is committed, it is not God's will.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
784
113
#79
God is not sovereign over all things. Many things that happen in this world are not God's will. Every time a person sins, it is not God's will. Every time a woman is raped, it is not God's will. Every time a murder is committed, it is not God's will.
"...[He] works all things according to the counsel of his will."
Eph 1:11
 
Mar 14, 2011
66,744
12,836
113
#80
The Bible says that God is all knowing, all mighty, sovereign over all things, knows all things from the beginning to the end, created all things, predestinated all things and nothing happens unless He wills it.

I can't read my Bible and walk away and conclude that God is only sovereign over some things but He doesn't have the power over other things as you are suggesting. We take Him at His word, we don't bring Him down to our level and force Him to do as we want Him to do as the Arminians do.
God can do whatever he wants, you are limiting god and saying he does not have the power to do it if he so chooses.

You did not answer my post, you gave another strawman argument, i am about done with them