Calvinist Kitchen...stirring the pot

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Mar 14, 2011
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and your scripture for this is????
Who resists His will? Who talks back to God? Do you make God your puppet to perform as you desire?
He turns the heart of the king where ever He will.
How could Adam choose NOT to sin when God had the plan of salvation predestined before
the cross.....Peter's sermon in Acts 2 says this. ..... Would God just toss that plan and figure out another??
When someone says don;t do this or else I will punish you, they are telling them they have a choice. Obey or disobay.

Thank you, You just pointed the point most hate about calvinistic fatalistic doctrines.

They Have God forcing Adam to sin, thus causing the fall of mankind, The evil that has hurt so many people through the centuries, the rape and murder of children. I can go on and on, All because he wanted to save a few chosen select people. Then tell others he is not a respector of persons.

Thanks but no thanks. I KNOW your my brother in christ, But I reject your fatalistic view.


Yes, God chose salvation and had his plan before the foundation, But not because he forced man to sin and fall. But because he is outside our understanding, and hi sknowledge is everlasting, knowing th ebegining from the end. he chose to create us KNOWING we would reject him, but chose to come save us anyway.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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The only grasping here is trying to figure out just how a person's past experience precludes his predilection to reject Christianity? You only have to read the life testimonies of those people who have any kind of anti-christian type of existance and yet have felt a need for God .....even cults thrive on these tpes of people looking for answers from those leaders who claim to have it.
He who believes vs he who does not believe

Even jesus said, You can nto see because you do not believe.

Belief is a personal choice, We either believe or we do not believe, And even when we believe, it is not enough, we have to come to faith, Many will believe, yet never come to faith, Because although they KNOW (again romans 1) they do not wish to believe. They either like their sin, they like their religion (see jews) or they are to proud to humble themselves like the tax collector. Because it is to hard.
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
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When someone says don;t do this or else I will punish you, they are telling them they have a choice. Obey or disobay.

Thank you, You just pointed the point most hate about calvinistic fatalistic doctrines.

They Have God forcing Adam to sin, thus causing the fall of mankind, The evil that has hurt so many people through the centuries, the rape and murder of children. I can go on and on, All because he wanted to save a few chosen select people. Then tell others he is not a respector of persons.

Thanks but no thanks. I KNOW your my brother in christ, But I reject your fatalistic view.

Yes, God chose salvation and had his plan before the foundation, But not because he forced man to sin and fall. But because he is outside our understanding, and hi sknowledge is everlasting, knowing th ebegining from the end. he chose to create us KNOWING we would reject him, but chose to come save us anyway.
yet.......stiil NO scripture
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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People do debate about OSAS and not OSAS.

OSAS says they cannot abstain from sin, and sin does not affect their relationship with God, and obviously they sin because they say they cannot abstain from sins, so sin cannot affect their relationship with God, because they can never fall, and those that oppose OSAS says that they can abstain from sin by the Spirit, and sin does affect their relationship with God, and they can lose out on salvation if they hold unto sin.

But let us consider this.

If OSAS is true then God would only work in the lives of those He chose, for there would be no reason for God to work in the lives of those He did not choose.

1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

No person can say Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost, so if a person confesses Jesus is Lord, God would have to be working in their life.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No person can come to the Son to confess Him as Savior unless the Father draws them to the Son, so if a person confesses the Son as Savior then God is working in their life.

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

If a person confesses that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, it can only be revealed to them by the Father, so God is working in their life.

Both OSAS and those that oppose OSAS believe those things, and confess those things, so God would have to be working among both of them, so the ones that do not believe OSAS would have to still be saved even though they do not believe OSAS, so why do the OSAS people bother to hassle them if they are saved too.

It seems like the OSAS people try to say the criteria for being saved is believing in OSAS instead of acting Christlike being led of the Spirit, having works of love.

But the Bible says many are called, but few are chosen, so God does the calling and choosing on earth.

And the Lord knows them that are His having this seal, for this is what seals the saints, and how they are led of the Spirit, that everyone that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

And if a person hates sin, and does not want sin, by the Spirit they can abstain from sin, for they will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, for they have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts, and show the ways of the Spirit, and not the ways of the flesh.

And those that are led of the Spirit are not under the law, because their sins are forgiven, and they are abstaining from sin, so the law cannot touch them for prosecution.

But all sin can be forgiven but a person should have the proper attitude and get rid of it and keep moving forward and do not hold unto sin, for then the blood of Christ cannot wash it away.

So which belief is right OSAS or a person can lose salvation if they do not act Christlike led by the Spirit.

Which it appears that those that say to act Christlike led by the Spirit seem to have the truth in the matter.

If OSAS is true then both beliefs would be saved for they confess those things concerning Jesus, and God is working in their life.

But many are called, but few are chosen, so many confess those things but not all will be saved, for some have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof, and it points out their sins, and they are lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God, for they want to enjoy the world like the world enjoys it, and believe they are still saved.

And God said to turn away from them, so if OSAS says they cannot abstain from sin, and sin does not affect their relationship with God, does it seem like they are the ones that fit that attitude of having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof, for a Spirit led life will not sin, and they say they cannot abstain from sins, so they would have to be denying the Spirit leading them.

If OSAS is true then God's kingdom is not true love, and He is not evil to condemn people that have no choice but to reject truth seeing no other alternative.

That means the ones God did choose their faith is not real, their confession of Christ is not real, their love of God is not real, their hope is not real, their repenting of their sins is not real, for it did not come from them but from God.

If OSAS is true then God would of not have created the earth, for the earth would serve no purpose for God could create them to be with Him, and cut out the earth, and the result would be the same for they have no participation in their salvation.

The reason that there is an earth that people dwell on is because they have to be apart from God, so they can choose that salvation while not dwelling with God, believing it is true by faith.

But if OSAS is true there is no purpose for the earth.



Attach files
John 6:38 - Christ died as a sacrifice to God and not as a sacrifice to man, for man;s acceptance. for all that his Father gave him and he said that he would not lose a single one of them but raise them up at the last day. Everyone that God intended to save eternally was saved on the cross and there has not anyone that has been saved eternally sense the cross. Sense all he died for is going to be with him in heaven, then OSAS holds true.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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that wasn't your insinuation in your original post on that
My insinuation was that I had never heard what the person said before, and I was looking forward to his response.

Not sure how you could see any insinuation.

I think it is maybe obvious you do not understand what I believe? You should not assume
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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Sigh....all camps have been destroyed...no one understood the secret of it all until trofimus! LOL!!!!!!!!!!

Many people understood it. You are just unlearned to know it :)

If something is not in English, you cannot get it.
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
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He who believes vs he who does not believe

Even jesus said, You can nto see because you do not believe.

Belief is a personal choice, We either believe or we do not believe, And even when we believe, it is not enough, we have to come to faith, Many will believe, yet never come to faith, Because although they KNOW (again romans 1) they do not wish to believe. They either like their sin, they like their religion (see jews) or they are to proud to humble themselves like the tax collector. Because it is to hard.
Yes....amen....you do not see because you do not believe.
Man is corrupted beyond belief, and does not even see his own corruption. Romans 3, NOONE seeks after God, no not one
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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The only grasping here is trying to figure out just how a person's past experience precludes his predilection to reject Christianity? You only have to read the life testimonies of those people who have any kind of anti-christian type of existance and yet have felt a need for God .....even cults thrive on these tpes of people looking for answers from those leaders who claim to have it.
Can you answer my question, how is somebody guilty if he has no ability to choose?
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Yes....amen....you do not see because you do not believe.
Man is corrupted beyond belief, and does not even see his own corruption. Romans 3, NOONE seeks after God, no not one
Yet His disciples although they could not see what Jesus was going to do. Saw.

As Peter said, Where are we to go, you have the words of eternal life.

Your right, no one seeks after God.

But also. MANY are CALLED, FEW are CHOSEN.

Jesus made it clear. The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin righteousness and judgment. Whoever says no, says no to the HS. And will suffer eternal death because of that FREE WILL CHOICE

Not because they where not given power to believe, but because they CHOSE to say no.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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What do you suggest instead? Whats the best way to tie these two together?
DONT SAY LIBNEZIAN (or whatever it was!). I will not read it. Its too long. Instead I will ask you to briefly tell me the solution.
Men have freedom in their choices, meaning that their choices are free from necessity (geometrická nutnost) as from coercion (nátlak).

There are not just two options - God leaving us to choose randomly without his direction vs God forcing us.

An example with a dog. I can guide a dog to go to a directon I want, using my grace given to him (bowl of meat), but I am NOT forcing him. Even though I am not forcing him, I can make it absolutely certain that his free will will lead him that way.

In this way, the certainity of predetermination and the freedom of the will (the freedom of choosing) can work together without any biblical or logical problem.

And thats why some old theologians taught that God does not force, but only inclines and permits. Our choices are caused but not forced.

You can read it expressed more formally there:
https://www.skidmore.edu/~ljorgens/teachres/Theodicy Packet.pdf

Causa Dei, page 65, articles 102 and next.
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
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John 6:38 - Christ died as a sacrifice to God and not as a sacrifice to man, for man;s acceptance. for all that his Father gave him and he said that he would not lose a single one of them but raise them up at the last day. Everyone that God intended to save eternally was saved on the cross and there has not anyone that has been saved eternally sense the cross. Sense all he died for is going to be with him in heaven, then OSAS holds true.

YOU said: "there has not anyone that has been saved eternally sense the cross"
WHAT???? Are you sure that is what you mean??

And it's SINCE.... not sense
 
Dec 28, 2016
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Many people understood it. You are just unlearned to know it :)
Oh, I understood it, it's rudimentary nonsense.

And you're correct, I don't know it all, like you. :)

If something is not in English, you cannot get it.
You'll have to try much harder to insult me. The thing is, you don't have the answer as you pretend to in front of others online. You understand your position is readily dismantled with this thing called a Bible, right?

I'd debate your stance, but the thing is, you're not exactly biblical and rarely use Scripture but that's probably partially due to the fact you tell others the Scriptures are corrupt.

Anyhow, you need to stick to the Scriptures, not "lean on your own...Liebnizianisms."
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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Oh, I understood it, it's rudimentary nonsense.

And you're correct, I don't know it all, like you. :)



You'll have to try much harder to insult me. The thing is, you don't have the answer as you pretend to in front of others online. You understand your position is readily dismantled with this thing called a Bible, right?

I'd debate your stance, but the thing is, you're not exactly biblical and rarely use Scripture but that's probably partially due to the fact you tell others the Scriptures are corrupt.

Anyhow, you need to stick to the Scriptures, not "lean on your own...Liebnizianisms."
Do you really think I have any need to insult you? What good can it bring to me. You know only English and you learn what English people gave you in your American Christianity. There, calvinism vs arminianism are prevailing views so you do not know (or worse - do not care) about other possibilities from Germany, from Bohemia etc.

I do not mean it as insult, if you feel it is, then the problem may lie in you being proud.
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
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If you like Spurgeon, then you will love to know that good man was a calvinist!
Yup, hate to burst your bubble of discontent with us calvinists, but Spurgeon actually said that he believed the doctrines of grace because they were scripture. He also has a great sermon called "free will".....about how man does NOT have free will. I suppose now His quote will soon be missing from your postings. :cry:
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
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Do you really think I have any need to insult you? What good can it bring to me. You know only English and you learn what English people gave you in your American Christianity. There, calvinism vs arminianism are prevailing views so you do not know about other possibilities from Germany, from Bohemia etc.

I do not mean it as insult, if you feel it is, then the problem may lie in you being proud.
Do you refer to the possibiity of the German, Luther?? Whoops, did I just mention ANOTHER believer in Doctrines of Grace?? oh my
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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Do you refer to the possibiity of the German, Luther?? Whoops, did I just mention ANOTHER believer in Doctrines of Grace?? oh my
Germany or Europe is not just about Luther and Calvin. As the history is not just about Pelagius, Arminius and Augustin (or Spurgeon).

You are right, Luther was really into grace. Who is not?
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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GraceandTruth is in stage cage, no doubt, lol.

No offense.

Again, his assessment of Pelagianism in another thread is totally false, he needs to recant that and speak the truth. You made a mistake, admit it and go on. :)

Furthermore I see nothing in Scripture that states there will be more saved than lost. Of course it's a possibility, but according to Scripture it appears more are deceived and lost than are saved in my honest opinion.

What Scripture does teach is that those who are from Abraham, his offspring, will be as the sand on the sea shore, Genesis 22:17, that much is true. It does not say that all of these are spiritual offspring, or that all of them are saved, or that the saved of these will outnumber those lost; Romans 9:6-8.
In the book of Genesis God changed Jacob's name to be called Israel, Gen 32:28. All through the scriptures thereafter in most instances when God references Israel he is talking about Jacob. which is a like figure of the elect. The descendants of Jacob are so many that they cannot be numbered. and are the benefactors of God's covenant. Many of the regenerated children of God do not understand how depraved they are by their fleshly nature. and exclude a lot of God's elect because at times they are disobedient to God's commandments. I suppose you also differ from me on your belief of the wide and strait gates. What is your response on my statement about many of the salvation scriptures are referring to deliverance we receive here on earth?
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
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Yes, but there is a bigger consequence than to insult God's people,....it is the insult to GOD that they bear.
I'm just glad I don't live in a hateful skin like that. Always looking to bash with THE MOST PUT-DOWN EVER HEARD IN THE WORLD!! lol
Not real sure of your point.......because defending the truth, even sarcastically is not unbiblical.....a lie is a lie and a generation of snakes and vipers have been forewarned or maybe the blind leading the blind.....!