Calvinist Kitchen...stirring the pot

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tourist

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Mar 13, 2014
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Does not make it false either, you might consider each of the 5 points AND the5 solas and see where you really stand on these points.
Pass over those M&M's.....please.
What you said is true and worthy of consideration. Concerning those M & M's, that has always been part of my signature at the bottom of each post I write so perhaps we are close to being on the same page in this regard. :)
 
Mar 14, 2011
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ok....here's another spoon to stir the pot:

supralapsarian - believes God made those POTS and has determined their use, some for glory, some for destruction
Infralapsarian - believe that God made the POTS but that some were elected to glory and some had to choose their own glory

I am in the SUPRA camp
How about the “non of the above”group?
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
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A totally depraved person can see his own sin, They can see his own judgment, and know they are rightly judged (see romans 1) they can see enough to know they have no excuse, meaning they can also see (with the help of God who comes to convict the world of sin righteousness and judgment) the way to salvation. By grace through faith. And not of themselves.
Good post

May I also add:

Titus 2:11-12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

It says the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to ALL men. It doesnt say all ELECT men, or SOME men, now does it?

So the lost man is without excuse. I bet atheists like calvinism, they can just say "O well I dont believe because im not elect, its God's fault im going to hell".
I guarantee if I did some research on it, some atheists would have said it in some interview or video.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Another spoon.........free will.
One cannot have a free will unless one lives in a vacuum. We are surrounded by ideas all our lives.
And do not confuse "freewill OFFERING" with the free will of man. Let's try to not test the limits of stupid.
Free Will

Adam had Free Will to chose yes or no, He chose no, and died

Man has free will to chose yes or no, Those who chose yes (in faith) are not condemned, Those who chose no (do not believe) are condemned already because they have not believed.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
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What you are against is so called indifferent will, i.e. all choices are of the same value to you and you do not have any inclination.

Such will does not exist.
I like your posts, always objective and balanced.

I would also like to say: What I mean by free will is NOT that i can choose to be a tree or a bird or something crazy. It just simply means having the option to obey, or disobey, to CHOOSE whom ye shall serve.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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I like your posts, always objective and balanced.

I would also like to say: What I mean by free will is NOT that i can choose to be a tree or a bird or something crazy. It just simply means having the option to obey, or disobey, to CHOOSE whom ye shall serve.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
Yes, we choose. Thats what makes it free. We are not forced by anybody.

On the other hand, we choose according to our inclinations, we choose according to various causes, no matter if we realize it or not.
Therefore our will can be directed by God with the highest precision so that our choices are certain.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Except limited atonement. Christ paid once for all. His atoning act of self sacrifice is sufficient enough for every sin ever committed by every person who has, does, or will ever live.
This is why most people are follow niether of the two doctrines. They believe in parts of both. But also reject parts of both.

It should not even be a debate between the two. It is if some think they are the only two views.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
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Yes, we choose. Thats what makes it free. We are not forced by anybody.

On the other hand, we choose according to our inclinations, we choose according to various causes, no matter if we realize it or not.
Therefore our will can be directed by God with the highest precision so that our choices are certain.
Cant deny that!

For example if someone grows up in a "Christian" home and is mistreated, they are more likely to be against christianity later on in life.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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Cant deny that!

For example if someone grows up in a "Christian" home and is mistreated, they are more likely to be against christianity later on in life.
Therefore, our actions can be predetermined and still be free ;-)

Both calvinism and arminianism fail to grasp this simple concept.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Cant deny that!

For example if someone grows up in a "Christian" home and is mistreated, they are more likely to be against christianity later on in life.
Agree, At same token, Many grew up in christian homes, and were treated with love and respect. And witnessed much of Gods love amoung his people. Then turned around when they got old enough to leave to leave God altogether and want absolutely nothing to do with him.
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
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Free Will

Adam had Free Will to chose yes or no, He chose no, and died

Man has free will to chose yes or no, Those who chose yes (in faith) are not condemned, Those who chose no (do not believe) are condemned already because they have not believed.
and your scripture for this is????
Who resists His will? Who talks back to God? Do you make God your puppet to perform as you desire?
He turns the heart of the king where ever He will.
How could Adam choose NOT to sin when God had the plan of salvation predestined before
the cross.....Peter's sermon in Acts 2 says this. ..... Would God just toss that plan and figure out another??
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
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Therefore, our actions can be predetermined and still be free ;-)

Both calvinism and arminianism fail to grasp this simple concept.
What do you suggest instead? Whats the best way to tie these two together?
DONT SAY LIBNEZIAN (or whatever it was!). I will not read it. Its too long. Instead I will ask you to briefly tell me the solution.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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What do you suggest instead? Whats the best way to tie these two together?
DONT SAY LIBNEZIAN (or whatever it was!). I will not read it. Its too long. Instead I will ask you to briefly tell me the solution.
I am very sad that the English translation of Theodicy does not include the summary of main points as it is included in German, French and Czech... You are right that to read all the book can be exhausting. I will try to google it out, if the summary can be found somewhere.
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
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Therefore, our actions can be predetermined and still be free ;-)

Both calvinism and arminianism fail to grasp this simple concept.
The only grasping here is trying to figure out just how a person's past experience precludes his predilection to reject Christianity? You only have to read the life testimonies of those people who have any kind of anti-christian type of existance and yet have felt a need for God .....even cults thrive on these tpes of people looking for answers from those leaders who claim to have it.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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Therefore, our actions can be predetermined and still be free ;-)

Both calvinism and arminianism fail to grasp this simple concept.
Sigh....all camps have been destroyed...no one understood the secret of it all until trofimus! LOL!!!!!!!!!!